The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[The Parksider]

Pretty much all sports have an elite few who can win the title. The rest are also rans. The fact is though that these clubs have a right to compete with each other, not be segregated arbitrarily. In many, many examples, clubs focus on being the best at where they are at. At least with P&R this allows for limited ambitions to be realised. Just because the same club cannot win the title does not make it less worthy a cause to invest in or achieve.

 

Not sure I understand what your saying? I'm too busy looking at the ring fenced 16 club NRL Premiership.

 

16 clubs there to do a job and doing a blooming brilliant one at that.

 

Not sure the ambitions of Newtown Jets are relevant. Not sure if they have any? OK a couple of their fans may have "high hopes" and post them on forums, but I don't think IMVHO with respect that the tip of the tail should wag tie dog to repeat an embellished Padge quote.

[Steve Slater]

Sorry for being a dinosaur Parky. When I played all the best youngsters this side of the Pennines came from Fev, Cas, Hunslet and Shaw Cross, and that's where the likes of Leeds, Bradford and the Hull clubs recruited from. As far as Fev and Cas goes, soccer was rarely played in local schools and kids grew up steeped in the game. You couldn't walk around town or up Station Lane without bumbing into half a dozen RL internationals.

Of course, those were the bad old days when GB last won the world cup!  

[keighley]

Your right IMVHO to warn against ring fencing failures.

 

But perhaps we should look at your "areas that have been famous for producing talent".......

 

Leeds

Calder

Bradhuddersfax

Hull

Wigan

Widnes

Manchester/Salford

St.Helens

Warrington

South of France

 

Why not ring fence a club for each of those areas then we will ensure that places that produce players and attract fans through the turnstiles are not "condemned to a lifetime of obscurity".

 

Totally logical stuff, but those who want to preserve all the small clubs of yesteryear, clubs who put off people attending their games, clubs who don't produce players but feed off clubs who do, will baulk at this and find an argument for preserving the status quo, i.e. throwing money at preserving the past rather than investing in the future.

Completely defeatist like an ostrich or a tortoise. In the face of risk, stick your head in the sand, pull back into your shell and retreat.

Forget the several players in SL from London, from Wales, from Cumbria, Batley, Dewsbury. Forget that there are teams in Cheltenham, Oxford, Hemel in the pro game finding new sources of players as we speak and forget the spread of the amateur game in the midlands, Coventry, Leicester, Nottingham, Telford and Derbyshire. Forget the thriving North East amateur scene.

Forget the renaissance at Leigh and Fev, Halifax and Crusaders. Forget that Castleford are top of the league and Dewsbury and Doncaster are in the top four. There are just no players to be found to have decent teams in anywhere but ring around the roses ring fenced nirvana land.

The system is producing players at various levels and SL players will eventually surface.

Forget that this game is a game for small to medium sized clubs. There are no soccer sized behemoths in our game. This is a game of medium sized at best and ambition, drive and energy can still get small to the top.

Long may it continue.

We need more Winston Churchills and fewer Neville Chamberlains in the face of danger from RU and other monsters. Those who dare win, I think I heard somewhere.

[keighley]

Not sure I understand what your saying? I'm too busy looking at the ring fenced 16 club NRL Premiership.

 

16 clubs there to do a job and doing a blooming brilliant one at that.

 

Not sure the ambitions of Newtown Jets are relevant. Not sure if they have any? OK a couple of their fans may have "high hopes" and post them on forums, but I don't think IMVHO with respect that the tip of the tail should wag tie dog to repeat an embellished Padge quote.

If your hopes for SL were to be transported to the NRL, Brisbane and the Warriors and Canberra would be ditched to seek a slimmed down mini league compressed into Sydney.

There would be no room for a Perth team or the Melbourne Storm because those areas don't produce players. There would be no room for a second team in Brisbane because two team cities strangle and dilute the spectator base and thin the playing talent pool.

Fortunately for the game of Rugby League, your view does not prevail and the NRL is and has not been ring fenced and will expand and grow the game in the years to come.

[The Parksider]

Sorry for being a dinosaur Parky. When I played all the best youngsters this side of the Pennines came from Fev, Cas, Hunslet and Shaw Cross, and that's where the likes of Leeds, Bradford and the Hull clubs recruited from. As far as Fev and Cas goes, soccer was rarely played in local schools and kids grew up steeped in the game. You couldn't walk around town or up Station Lane without bumbing into half a dozen RL internationals.

Of course, those were the bad old days when GB last won the world cup!  

 

Your not a dinosaur Steve. We need a club to capture all the best talent from Fev and Cas (and Wakey) to take on Leeds who now attract the best Hunslet lads along with the best at Leeds.

 

The best Dewsbury lads end up at Bradford or Leeds and again a strong Bradford matching Leeds and a strong Wakey area club competing for the very best in West Yorkshire would be great for the game.

 

There's no logic to the idea that if RL in west yorkshire had three top pro clubs and nobody else, that somehow the game would wither.

 

Three top clubs scrapping to be top dogs in all the areas you quote would easily attract an average 15,000 people to their derby games. In turn those sort of attendances would inspire the growth of junior RL and provide the funds to pay the areas best 75 players to be career RL professionals.

 

What's not to like?

 

What's your point??

[bamfordsbeans]

If we did ringfence these top 10 teams who would they be?I,m assuming you are including the likes of Huddersfield who only managed 7000 yesterday -and I would imagine a significant away support.

If we had 10 Wigan and Leeds,s out there OK-but its not going to happen.

[Griff]

That's as good a simple analysis as I've ever had.

 

If changing the structure of the game won't alter the clubs then isn't it obvious that the solution is to change the structure of the clubs?

 

All our clubs are continually trying to be what they were in 1995 only full time professional outfits.

 

As they stand so many can't get a crowd to sustain this (4,000 at Wakey, 5,000 at Cas, 5,000 at Widnes) so many can't develop players (couple of Wakey lads playing in SL as first picks, handful of Warrington and Salford/Manchester lads equally playing as first picks).

 

So what did Uncle Maurice propose???

 

Here we go again around and around..................

 

I should have said the structure of the competition, of course.

 

Yes, we do need to improve the structure of the clubs and change their aims from just winning things.

[The Parksider]

If we did ringfence these top 10 teams who would they be?I,m assuming you are including the likes of Huddersfield who only managed 7000 yesterday -and I would imagine a significant away support.

If we had 10 Wigan and Leeds,s out there OK-but its not going to happen.

 

Your still thinking inside the box.

 

Which 10 of the 37 professional clubs we have today should be ring fenced for a real Superleague??

 

I can safely suggest Hull, Leeds St.Helens and Wigan.

 

After that I'm stuck. After that the clubs either play out of dumps, don't produce professional players in any number beyond a few or don't attract enough fans. or are handicapped by any combination of these things.

 

Warrington perhaps? Les Catalans?? Toulouse??? Is Salford/Manchester too great a risk without long term commitment from D. K? would any clubs merge rather than carry on declining? Crowds well down at Fev, Cas and wakey this week??

 

How about Bradford/Fartown/Fax? All three in SL in 2003 when they interested 24,000 paying fans, today over ten years on they interest 16,000 paying fans.

 

Maybe the NRL can give us some inspiration?

 

 

.

[keighley]

Your still thinking inside the box.

 

Which 10 of the 37 professional clubs we have today should be ring fenced for a real Superleague??

 

I can safely suggest Hull, Leeds St.Helens and Wigan.

 

After that I'm stuck. After that the clubs either play out of dumps, don't produce professional players in any number beyond a few or don't attract enough fans. or are handicapped by any combination of these things.

 

Warrington perhaps? Les Catalans?? Toulouse??? Is Salford/Manchester too great a risk without long term commitment from D. K? would any clubs merge rather than carry on declining? Crowds well down at Fev, Cas and wakey this week??

 

How about Bradford/Fartown/Fax? All three in SL in 2003 when they interested 24,000 paying fans, today over ten years on they interest 16,000 paying fans.

 

Maybe the NRL can give us some inspiration?

 

 

.

Fev got 2,500. Is that well down ? Cas were playing Catalans, no away support and not a big draw, Now cas are top of the league, expect a much bigger crowd at their next home game.

Halifax are in the championship. Bradford are in the bottom two with two bankruptcies in two years. Is it any surprise the aggregate attendance is down.

Now if Bradford were stable and in the top eight I would expect 10,000 and if Halifax were in SL I would expect 4,000. This would give you 21,000. The lost fans would be from Bradford, whose 15,000 average is not likely ever to return. That era was a one off.

Statistics are only good if you don't totally skew the numbers and circumstances just to make them prove a point.

[jpmc]

Your right IMVHO to warn against ring fencing failures.

 

But perhaps we should look at your "areas that have been famous for producing talent".......

 

Leeds

Calder

Bradhuddersfax

Hull

Wigan

Widnes

Manchester/Salford

St.Helens

Warrington

South of France

 

Why not ring fence a club for each of those areas then we will ensure that places that produce players and attract fans through the turnstiles are not "condemned to a lifetime of obscurity".

 

Totally logical stuff, but those who want to preserve all the small clubs of yesteryear, clubs who put off people attending their games, clubs who don't produce players but feed off clubs who do, will baulk at this and find an argument for preserving the status quo, i.e. throwing money at preserving the past rather than investing in the future.

I dont completely disagree with you  but how do you get Salford to call themselves Manchester,how do you get Widnes to call themselves halton so that the whole borough feels involved,how do you get bradford,huddersfied & halifax to all disappear to form one club,the same goes for the Wakefield area?

Until acceptable answers are found then there really isnt much point in keeping talking about this

[Ackroman]

I dont completely disagree with you  but how do you get Salford to call themselves Manchester,how do you get Widnes to call themselves halton so that the whole borough feels involved,how do you get bradford,huddersfied & halifax to all disappear to form one club,the same goes for the Wakefield area?

Until acceptable answers are found then there really isnt much point in keeping talking about this

 

Quite.

[Griff]

I dont completely disagree with you  but how do you get Salford to call themselves Manchester,how do you get Widnes to call themselves halton so that the whole borough feels involved,how do you get bradford,huddersfied & halifax to all disappear to form one club,the same goes for the Wakefield area?

Until acceptable answers are found then there really isnt much point in keeping talking about this

 

How are you going to find an answer if no one can talk about it ?

 

Just curious ....

[jpmc]

How are you going to find an answer if no one can talk about it ?

 

Just curious ....

No one is saying anything new about it.

For years one group of people have said xxx should merge to form one club, whilst fans of said clubs have just said no thanks,nothing to see here,move on.

Then the day after we all repeat the same thing.

 

Why should bradford fans watch a club, that plays out of a stadium, thats based in Huddersfield.

[The Parksider]

I dont completely disagree with you  but how do you get Salford to call themselves Manchester,how do you get Widnes to call themselves halton so that the whole borough feels involved,how do you get bradford,huddersfied & halifax to all disappear to form one club,the same goes for the Wakefield area?

Until acceptable answers are found then there really isnt much point in keeping talking about this

 

It's a bit dangerous this appearance of self styled moderators saying what we should and should not talk about. No disrespect but let's allow people to discuss things and allow those who don't want to to not bother.

 

Whenever acceptable solutions aren't found to a problem then naturally people will keep the pot boiling.

 

The point is that we are finding out that our traditional clubs have no real future and the year upon year of wishful thinking is proving to be just that. Pie in the sky jam tomorrow stuff.

 

The speed at which the "World cup" effect has dissipated is alarming, and the early indications that the interest in the relegation fight just isn't there are massive alarm bells.

 

Enough people on here take the opinion the latest moves are doomed, so the debate will go on. The idea we are stuck with it is nonsense as Mr. Lenegan battles for power. All fascinating stuff for me, and naturally if 12 doesn't work, the next topic of conversation is 10. 

 

Let me know when crowds start booming and clubs start growing their fan and player bases and then we can stop talking about solutions.

[The Parksider]

 

For years one group of people have said xxx should merge to form one club, whilst fans of said clubs have just said no thanks,

 

The fans have never ever been consulted.

 

SOME fans down Fev Ponte and Cas way took it upon themselves to have a "vote" of sorts with a sit in on the pitch.

 

At that time under semi pro league there were 12,200 fans watching at Wakey, Cas and Fev.

 

The few hundred got their way. Fourteen years later under professional Superleague the three clubs returned a total attendance this week of 11,700.

 

The junior playerbase is reducing in Cas, Featherstone have one junior club, and Wakefield don't turn out any great quality of young players.

 

The new structure is supposed to revitalise them?? Isn't this tragedy something worth talking about??

[Steve May]

How about Bradford/Fartown/Fax? All three in SL in 2003 when they interested 24,000 paying fans, today over ten years on they interest 16,000 paying fans.

 

.

 

I know you have problems with Huddersfield but surely even you can see it's harsh to lump one club who have doubled their attendance with a club that has halved theirs and another that has collapsed totally and then claim they are all the same!

[bamfordsbeans]

Its less than 20 years ago since Halifax used to get bigger crowds than Huddersfield and Bradford combined.in fact I used to get bored of the one sided nature of the Huddersfield and Halifax fixures.Its only that Ken Davey was based the other side of Ainley top that things worked out differently.

Who is to say that the next Dr Koucash isn,t going to come from Oldham or Rochdale?

Thats why the new structure at least gives hope to all clubs.

[Griff]

Its less than 20 years ago since Halifax used to get bigger crowds than Huddersfield and Bradford combined.in fact I used to get bored of the one sided nature of the Huddersfield and Halifax fixures.Its only that Ken Davey was based the other side of Ainley top that things worked out differently.

Who is to say that the next Dr Koucash isn,t going to come from Oldham or Rochdale?

Thats why the new structure at least gives hope to all clubs.

 

Would that be the David Brook days ?

[Cake Tiger]

Could someone direct me to a post on this thread which explains how the new structure works next season? A post number will work as a reference.

 

I may have missed it and I'm not reading the whole thread just on the off chance. 

[keighley]

The fans have never ever been consulted.

 

SOME fans down Fev Ponte and Cas way took it upon themselves to have a "vote" of sorts with a sit in on the pitch.

 

At that time under semi pro league there were 12,200 fans watching at Wakey, Cas and Fev.

 

The few hundred got their way. Fourteen years later under professional Superleague the three clubs returned a total attendance this week of 11,700.

 

The junior playerbase is reducing in Cas, Featherstone have one junior club, and Wakefield don't turn out any great quality of young players.

 

The new structure is supposed to revitalise them?? Isn't this tragedy something worth talking about??

This reduction in crowds would suggest that SL has been a miserable failure. Lies, damn lies etc.

Wakefield and Castleford have been in SL all those years. Isn't part of the remit to develop and assist he junior base. Didn't you laud the number of players the Calder region produced on another thread as being just behind Wigan and Leeds. This was when you were pushing your amalgamation theory of a massive Calder entity to challenge the big boys. You can't have it both ways. Does the Calder area produce players it does it not. I guess it depends which way your weather vane is turning on any particular day.

The new structure is not in place yet. Jockeying for position is what's happening and it's two weeks into the season. It's too small a sample to determine if attendances are down or not.

There are other factors at work in your sample example such as Wakefield having just escaped bankruptcy, having sold many players and operating on a health and safety crowd restriction.

Castleford were at home to Catalan, a notoriously poor draw with Northern fans. Castleford finished in the bottom three last year. A few wins and the Castleford crowds will increase. Winning does have that effect.

Featherstone's crowd was excellent. I don't see what your beef is there at all.

If the lower crowd figures transalate to the full season ahead, you might have a point. At present you don't.

[Jimmy B]

The fans have never ever been consulted.

 

SOME fans down Fev Ponte and Cas way took it upon themselves to have a "vote" of sorts with a sit in on the pitch.

 

At that time under semi pro league there were 12,200 fans watching at Wakey, Cas and Fev.

 

The few hundred got their way. Fourteen years later under professional Superleague the three clubs returned a total attendance this week of 11,700.

 

The junior playerbase is reducing in Cas, Featherstone have one junior club, and Wakefield don't turn out any great quality of young players.

 

The new structure is supposed to revitalise them?? Isn't this tragedy something worth talking about??

 

No Parky it wasn't just a "sit in" by a few fans.

Featherstone Rovers held an official ballot on the matter amongst the people who owned the club at the time i.e. the club members.

The result was in favour of going it alone.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Jimmy B

[Steve May]

Who is to say that the next Dr Koucash isn,t going to come from Oldham or Rochdale?

Thats why the new structure at least gives hope to all clubs.

If someone wants to pump millions of pounds into Oldham or Rochdale they'd get into SL under any structure.

[The Parksider]

I know you have problems with Huddersfield but surely even you can see it's harsh to lump one club who have doubled their attendance with a club that has halved theirs and another that has collapsed totally and then claim they are all the same!

 

I've no problems.

 

The problems are entirely with the three clubs in your area. None of them have been able to make a fist of being a top Superleague club. One collapsed and never came back, another has to have £Millions pumped in due to public apathy and the third is now collapsing big style.

 

My problem is we know the area has the resources to build a club to rival or better the Leeds and Wigans of this world.

 

The clubs attracted 14,000 fans as semi pro entities in 1995, just like the steady demise of the Calder clubs if Bradford's crowds fall then your area will end up with less interest in Superleague than there was for the semi pro game.

 

Not my problem at all Steve.

[The Parksider]

No Parky it wasn't just a "sit in" by a few fans.

Featherstone Rovers held an official ballot on the matter amongst the people who owned the club at the time i.e. the club members.

The result was in favour of going it alone.

 

Come on then Jimmy, how many "members" was it?

 

Let's have the number??

 

Griff - do you have the number??

[Griff]

Come on then Jimmy, how many "members" was it?

 

Let's have the number??

 

Griff - do you have the number??

 

A lot more than actually attend games these days.

 

And there's the rub - people don't want to lose their local team but don't really want the bother of actually supporting it.