The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[The Parksider]

A lot more than actually attend games these days.

 

And there's the rub - people don't want to lose their local team but don't really want the bother of actually supporting it.

 

That's the problem isn't it.

 

The members don't number enough to be representative of the potential support for Featherstone.

 

In 1995 nobody wanted to vote for anything but what they had.

 

Rovers members indeed voted to stay as they were.

 

Then when what they had voted for at Fev went down the pan 3,683 fans melted away to 800 ten years later.........

[keighley]

With regards to post 59 on the locked 'Back to the future" thread, where I alleged that the last season of DIv 1 prior to SL was the worst for many years as regards attendances and I was challenged on the accuracy of that.

I Googled on the subject and a chart by that excellent statistician Padge came up.

According to Padge from 1976 to 1993/94 1976 was the worst season with 900,000 aggregate spectators for Div 1 and the best was 1993/94 with 1,280,000m aggregate spectators for Div 1.

In 1994/95 the last winter season and, as I stated a dead rubber season waiting for SL to start, the aggregate was 600,000 spectators at Div 1 games. This was clearly the worst season for many years and to use it as a comparison with SL attendances to demonstrate a huge increase is disingenuous.

Just saying.

[Richard de la Riviere]

I think you might be confusing 1994/5 with 1995/6.

The latter was the stop gap season (otherwise known as the Centenary Season) before Super League began. It ran from Aug 1995 to Jan 1996 and was interrupted for a month because of the World Cup. It was an 11-team comp, so just 20 games each at an aggregate of 606,728 according to the Rothmans.

1994-5 was the last 'proper' winter season, running from August to April and the aggregate was 1,330,538, a slight decrease on 1993-4.

[keighley]

I think you might be confusing 1994/5 with 1995/6.

The latter was the stop gap season (otherwise known as the Centenary Season) before Super League began. It ran from Aug 1995 to Jan 1996 and was interrupted for a month because of the World Cup. It was an 11-team comp, so just 20 games each at an aggregate of 606,728 according to the Rothmans.

1994-5 was the last 'proper' winter season, running from August to April and the aggregate was 1,330,538, a slight decrease on 1993-4.

I think you might be confusing 1994/5 with 1995/6.

The latter was the stop gap season (otherwise known as the Centenary Season) before Super League began. It ran from Aug 1995 to Jan 1996 and was interrupted for a month because of the World Cup. It was an 11-team comp, so just 20 games each at an aggregate of 606,728 according to the Rothmans.

1994-5 was the last 'proper' winter season, running from August to April and the aggregate was 1,330,538, a slight decrease on 1993-4.

That skews the aggregate comparison then but the average of 5,515 is still the worst since 1986/87 when it was 4,844. In 1988/89 for instance the average was 7,292. Perhaps that season should have been used as a comparison

[The Parksider]

1994-5 was the last 'proper' winter season, running from August to April and the aggregate was 1,330,538, a slight decrease on 1993-4.

 

It was indeed a full season of 30 games apiece and was also saleable as the "Centenary" season. Rothmans recorded the aggregate attendances, but club for club wise the average was 5,543.

 

Interestingly by that time Wigan had become a big attractive outfit with Leeds hanging onto their coat tails, and these big clubs were turning in average crowds of 14,195 and 12,516 respectively but sadly outside this the other clubs averaged 4,427.

 

This was becoming an uncompetitive league in a game which clearly could draw the fans to the excitement of top class RL, but outside the top two it wasn't happening. The danger of tweaking anything was of course to risk the demise of Wigan and Leeds as powers, just to elevate someone else to have a turn at winning.

 

Superleague came in and in time salary capped the clubs and to be fair (and positive) Wigan maintained their crowds despite no longer being top dogs every year, after some money troubles and a blip accordingly Leeds regained their slumping crowds and grew them to 17,416 in 2007..

 

But the roaring success of Superleague was that other clubs grew into "big clubs". In 2006 Hull recorded a 14,553 average on the back of being able to compete for trophies.

 

By 2012 Saints had had their share of trophies and found a decent ground to maximise their crowds and they returned 14,113 average.

 

Bulls were the big crowd success, without the ground or the steadying influence of a rich owner a massive 15,259 trooped in to Odsal in 2003.

 

Warrington weren't a bad side 1994/5 they were runners up to inevitably Wigan in the Regal Trophy and averaged 5,380 that they now can compete better from a new stadium has seen that average grow and peak at 11,149 in recent seasons.

 

The trick for Superleague is of course to try to keep all clubs competitive and those wonderful crowds up there whilst growing some more big clubs. In recent times we have turned to France and Les Catalans have attained an average of 9,280 in 2012. Eyes then turned to the bigger city of Toulouse.

 

Poor stadia in the Calder area and lack of investment hold things back but Castleford's 7.490 in 2009 and Wakefields 8,172 in 2012 indicate that if one of them could find the ground and the money to keep players in that area then 10,000 gates would be realisable.

 

I've always thought that Superleague has done extremely well to rescue the game but could have done so much better, but that's another argument we've run for 17 years. Despite running into a bit of a dark period (but nowhere as near as black as 1994/5) we can still hope that further strides may in time be made.

[bamfordsbeans]

Its difficult to assess when our game was at its strongest.

Even though crowds were not as big overall as today-I remember the early to mid nineties as a period when internationally we were nearer to Australia than at any other time since the early seventies,the overall strenghth of clubs outside the elite was stronger and the amateur game in the heartlands was a lot more vibrant.

[The Parksider]

1980/81 1,226,428 average 5,110 16 clubs

1981/82 1,264,520 average 5,268 16 clubs

1989/90 1,173,815 average 6,450  14 clubs

1990/91 1,168,407 average 6,420  14 clubs

1991/92 1,185,117 average 6,511  14 clubs

1992/93 1,122,955 average 6,170  14 clubs

1993/94 1,364,056 average 5,683  16 clubs

1994/95 1,330,538 average 5,543  16 clubs

 

Here's the danger of reading stats without the fuller picture.

 

1991/2 looks like the game was at it's peak in the First Division at 6,511 a game and by 1995 it had slumped to 5,543 a game. As you can see the addition of two lesser supported clubs affected the average.

 

But 14 clubs is the order of the day today so maybe it's easy to set the 6,511 against Superleague:-

 

2007  9,833   12 clubs

2008  9,819   12 clubs

2009  8.730   14 clubs

2010  8,730   14 clubs

2011  8,879   14 clubs

2012  9,431   14 clubs

2013  8,473   14 clubs

 

No If's no But's,

 

the best season of the 1st.Division at 14 clubs was an average of 6,511 fans

the best season of Superleague at 14 clubs was an average of 9,431 fans

 

45% increase in gates,  Corrections welcome..... 

[bamfordsbeans]

Comparing averages at the top end is certainly one way of assessing different era,s.But I also remember this period and indeed the eighties for good crowds at Challenge cup games,crowds of over 1000 at second team games and 2000 at Yorkshire cup finals (amateur).

The average fan these days seems to buy a SL season ticket and attend few other games.

[zorquif]

Whatever happened to the lovely grounds that were promised in the Calder area? As part of the licensing at some point did both Cas and Wakey not promise new grounds? I could be wrong here, so please correct me if necessary!

 

The growth is very good, but looking at the dates, I have had a thought. Now this is just spit balling, so forgive me. In the mid-nineties, it seemed to became more acceptable for whole familes (and in particular girls) to support football. Looking at premier league average attendances (on worldfootball.net), they jumped by about 17% in the 95-96 season compared to the 94-95 season (by far the biggest change in average crowd during the PL era). Do we think something similar happened in SL? I note that from the last 'proper' winter season to the first SL season, we saw a 18% jump in attendances (from wiki and Parky's numbers). I'm sure that playing in summer had something to do with it, and it is likely just a coincidence, but they are pretty similar % increases.

[Trojan]

Whatever happened to the lovely grounds that were promised in the Calder area? As part of the licensing at some point did both Cas and Wakey not promise new grounds? I could be wrong here, so please correct me if necessary!

 

The growth is very good, but looking at the dates, I have had a thought. Now this is just spit balling, so forgive me. In the mid-nineties, it seemed to became more acceptable for whole familes (and in particular girls) to support football. Looking at premier league average attendances (on worldfootball.net), they jumped by about 17% in the 95-96 season compared to the 94-95 season (by far the biggest change in average crowd during the PL era). Do we think something similar happened in SL? I note that from the last 'proper' winter season to the first SL season, we saw a 18% jump in attendances (from wiki and Parky's numbers). I'm sure that playing in summer had something to do with it, and it is likely just a coincidence, but they are pretty similar % increases.

Can't speak for Cas, but Wakey promised all sorts to get themselves accepted in SL in 1998.  As Stalin said "promises like pie crusts, are made to be broken."

[ckn]

We've had far too many threads locked or ruined by them being dragged wildly off-topic onto the nuts and bolts of promotion and relegation.  As a compromise, it may be best if we have an official thread where the specific topic is P&R.  More specifically, this is P&R between the three leagues of SL, CC and CC1 but we wouldn't get huffy if people were discussing promotion into CC1 from below and vice versa.

 

The same rules of the board apply.  If it gets insulting then hit the report button, don't reply yourself or you'll get caught in the moderation.

 

Also, please note that we will be deleting posts in other threads if they take a thread off-topic onto P&R.  If something in another thread makes you want to have a rant about P&R then bring it to this thread instead.

 

Have fun!

[brooza]

Has it been announced yet what the P&R will be between CC and CC1 going forward?

[Derwent]

Has it been announced yet what the P&R will be between CC and CC1 going forward?

 

Yes, 2 up 2 down. Champions of CC1 promoted along with winners of play offs comprising 2nd to 5th place teams.

[brooza]

Yes, 2 up 2 down. Champions of CC1 promoted along with winners of play offs comprising 2nd to 5th place teams.

Excellent, thanks.

[Blind side johnny]

Yes, 2 up 2 down. Champions of CC1 promoted along with winners of play offs comprising 2nd to 5th place teams.

 

Although how the league itself will be structured hasn't yet been confirmed.

[Mr Wind Up]

The growth is very good, but looking at the dates, I have had a thought. Now this is just spit balling, so forgive me. In the mid-nineties, it seemed to became more acceptable for whole familes (and in particular girls) to support football. Looking at premier league average attendances (on worldfootball.net), they jumped by about 17% in the 95-96 season compared to the 94-95 season (by far the biggest change in average crowd during the PL era). Do we think something similar happened in SL? I note that from the last 'proper' winter season to the first SL season, we saw a 18% jump in attendances (from wiki and Parky's numbers). I'm sure that playing in summer had something to do with it, and it is likely just a coincidence, but they are pretty similar % increases.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the 95 Premier League season was the last which had 22 teams. In 1996 it was down to 20 teams, resulting in the increase in average attendance you point out.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Mr Wind Up

[Mr Wind Up]

I'm not sure there is anything to say about promotion and relegation until we see tangible effects in the years to come. We can pontificate, and I suspect many will, but the disappointment surrounding Broncos and Bradford should be put on hold until we see how things pan out under the new system.

[John Drake]

I've resurrected and pinned this thread (and merged even more recently opened threads with it) so people who want to do so can talk about promotion and relegation and the benefits or otherwise of league restructures to their hearts content without disrupting threads on unrelated topics with the same arguments that have been aired over and over and over again.

I'll bet that in another 40 pages, not one person involved will have changed their opinion on anything.

At least this way, people who are totally bored with the subject can hopefully avoid it and discuss other matters of interest, while moderators can avoid being accused of censoring or closing down debate.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Has anybody mentioned Nazis yet?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

the P and R discussion has become pretty sterile as others have said. It was bound to resurrect itself considering we know who is definitely going down, and considering the significance to the game of the clubs who are going down.

The new system is here and we just need to concentrate on enjoying our footy, I've certainly enjoyed mine this season.

 

But who are the main contenders for promotion to SL? In many ways the promotion campaign is already underway.

What will they bring to the competition in the short medium and long term? Which one(s) have the potential to become a power in the sport and take the competition forward. We've lost a big club that has achieved glory and attracted 20,000+ attendances, and has had some of the major stars of the sport among its ranks. We've lost a club in the capital that has made an under recognised contribution to the growth of Rugby League. 

So what are we likely to gain from whoever might replace them?

[Ackroman]

I've changed my opinion. I used to think SL should be 10 teams, with a second division of 10 with 2 up 2 down.

 

This was based on historical "evidence" about P&R, which suggests to me that the divisional split was too low in the table.  This caused a lot the problems many detractors of the system like to point out. Basically the elite league wasn't really elite and the clubs gaining promotion were too far off the pace.

 

I then thought the 3 x 8 was a good development, again because of the historical evidence from the one divisional structure which showed clubs at this point in the table were more matched than a split in divisions would suggest. These same clubs would now have to earn the right to play the elite far more than when they earned direct P&R into a bulging top division.

 

So I like the 3x8 regardless of the money. RL has got 8 elite clubs, 8 clubs that could be and the rest that may be.

 

Actuals, Probables, and Possibles.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Ackroman

[Scubby]

I really can't see how DR can be used amicably in the new system. Would Hull want Jacob Miller and Ben Crookes aiding Doncaster's promotion push if they are lingering in spots 9-12. And if a team has DR for key games during the pre-split will they then have to scratch around for players in the second phase?

[The Parksider]

 

Who are the main contenders for promotion to SL? In many ways the promotion campaign is already underway.

 

What will they bring to the competition in the short medium and long term? Which one(s) have the potential to become a power in the sport and take the competition forward and attractd 20,000+ attendances.

 

What are we likely to gain from whoever might replace them?

 

 

Bradford who will bring 20,000 attendances to Superleague again.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Bradford who will bring 20,000 attendances to Superleague again.

one would hope so

lets hope it isn't at the expense of catalan

[The Parksider]

I've changed my opinion. I used to think SL should be 10 teams, with a second division of 10 with 2 up 2 down.

 

This was based on historical "evidence" about P&R, which suggests to me that the divisional split was too low in the table.  This caused a lot the problems many detractors of the system like to point out. Basically the elite league wasn't really elite and the clubs gaining promotion were too far off the pace.

 

I then thought the 3 x 8 was a good development, again because of the historical evidence from the one divisional structure which showed clubs at this point in the table were more matched than a split in divisions would suggest. These same clubs would now have to earn the right to play the elite far more than when they earned direct P&R into a bulging top division.

 

So I like the 3x8 regardless of the money. RL has got 8 elite clubs, 8 clubs that could be and the rest that may be.

 

Actuals, Probables, and Possibles.

 

I really like this post, shame we can't do straight one up and one down between the eights. The 2 x 12's bit would probably retain the "off the pace" element.