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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Sorry to burst your bubble, but the 95 Premier League season was the last which had 22 teams. In 1996 it was down to 20 teams, resulting in the increase in average attendance you point out.

 

Good point! Only one of the four lowest supported teams went down in 94-95, but boro brought a lot of fans. Oh well!

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the P and R discussion has become pretty sterile as others have said. It was bound to resurrect itself considering we know who is definitely going down, and considering the significance to the game of the clubs who are going down.

The new system is here and we just need to concentrate on enjoying our footy, I've certainly enjoyed mine this season.

 

But who are the main contenders for promotion to SL? In many ways the promotion campaign is already underway.

What will they bring to the competition in the short medium and long term? Which one(s) have the potential to become a power in the sport and take the competition forward. We've lost a big club that has achieved glory and attracted 20,000+ attendances, and has had some of the major stars of the sport among its ranks. We've lost a club in the capital that has made an under recognised contribution to the growth of Rugby League. 

So what are we likely to gain from whoever might replace them?

 

 

The odds on favourite is that nobody will replace them. P&R is back in a fashion but its entirely possible that nobody will be promoted in the truest sense, merely some clubs regaining their starting position in SL for the following season.

 

The 4 SL clubs who go into the middle 8 aren't really relegated at that point, they've just not qualified for the SL top 8 play offs. No club is relegated until the outcome of the middle 8 is known. Its entirely possible, probably even likely, that each SL season will have the same 12 clubs starting it.

 

Therefore, it is totally meaningless to compare Bradford and London with Leigh and Featherstone as its highly likely that none of them will be in SL. It'd be a much more meaningful comparison to compare them to the 4 clubs who are the likeliest to occupy the bottom 4 SL places each season.

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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The odds on favourite is that nobody will replace them. P&R is back in a fashion but its entirely possible that nobody will be promoted in the truest sense, merely some clubs regaining their starting position in SL for the following season.

 

The 4 SL clubs who go into the middle 8 aren't really relegated at that point, they've just not qualified for the SL top 8 play offs. No club is relegated until the outcome of the middle 8 is known. Its entirely possible, probably even likely, that each SL season will have the same 12 clubs starting it.

 

Therefore, it is totally meaningless to compare Bradford and London with Leigh and Featherstone as its highly likely that none of them will be in SL. It'd be a much more meaningful comparison to compare them to the 4 clubs who are the likeliest to occupy the bottom 4 SL places each season.

thanks mate

 

FFS(edit, not aimed sat you)

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

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I've resurrected and pinned this thread (and merged even more recently opened threads with it) so people who want to do so can talk about promotion and relegation and the benefits or otherwise of league restructures to their hearts content without disrupting threads on unrelated topics with the same arguments that have been aired over and over and over again.

I'll bet that in another 40 pages, not one person involved will have changed their opinion on anything.

At least this way, people who are totally bored with the subject can hopefully avoid it and discuss other matters of interest, while moderators can avoid being accused of censoring or closing down debate.

fantastic archive material

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Comparing averages at the top end is certainly one way of assessing different era,s.But I also remember this period and indeed the eighties for good crowds at Challenge cup games,crowds of over 1000 at second team games and 2000 at Yorkshire cup finals (amateur).

The average fan these days seems to buy a SL season ticket and attend few other games.

Excellent point.

 

If we take Parksider's comparative attendance stats above at face value, they don't include the loss of support for cup games.

 

For example, if we compare Parksider's best season of the 1st.Division during the 14 club 1991/92 season with his best season of Super League during the 14 club 2012 season, how do attendances at the cup games compare?

 

Back in 1991/92 season, there was also the County Cup competitions and the Regal Trophy to consider. These are all games which have been lost along with their walk-up attendances. For example, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Lancashire Cup in 1991/92 was 30,171, for the Regal Trophy it was 20,356, for the Challenge Cup it was 66,954 (and for the Premiership Trophy it was 30,808 for a grand total of 148,289. In 2012, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Challenge Cup was 34,004 and 15,467 for a grand total of 49,471. That's a loss of 98,818 fans from just the knock-out cup rounds involving Wigan.. 

 

Club - 1991/92 - 2012 - (Loss)  

Wigan - 148,289 - 49,471 - (98,818)

St Helens - 120,397 - 26,569 - (93,828)

Leeds - 104,314 - 48,638 - (55,676)

Castleford - 95,155 - 8,130 - (87,025)

Widnes - 65,853 - 9,949 - (55,904)

Bradford - 62,887 - 2,959 - (59,928)

Hull - 51,750 - 28,273 - (23,477)

Warrington - 46,993 - 43,825 - (3,168)

Salford - 35,833 - 6,004 - (29,829)

Wakefield - 33,936 - 10,143 - (23,793)

Hull KR -17,401 - 14,206 - (3,195)

 

It's also worth noting that Featherstone and Halifax who were both in the First Division in 1991/92 accumulated the following attendances for cup games that year...

 

Featherstone - 53,051

Halifax - 47,012

 

Those attendances for cup games back in 1991/92 were primarily walk-up attendances where people paid at the turnstiles and some of them were excellent attendances. 

 

Like you say, today's fans purchase a heavily discounted season ticket for Super League and that's pretty much it, unless their club reaches the final of the Challenge Cup or the Grand Final. 

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Excellent point.

 

If we take Parksider's comparative attendance stats above at face value, they don't include the loss of support for cup games.

 

For example, if we compare Parksider's best season of the 1st.Division during the 14 club 1991/92 season with his best season of Super League during the 14 club 2012 season, how do attendances at the cup games compare?

 

Back in 1991/92 season, there was also the County Cup competitions and the Regal Trophy to consider. These are all games which have been lost along with their walk-up attendances. For example, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Lancashire Cup in 1991/92 was 30,171, for the Regal Trophy it was 20,356, for the Challenge Cup it was 66,954 (and for the Premiership Trophy it was 30,808 for a grand total of 148,289. In 2012, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Challenge Cup was 34,004 and 15,467 for a grand total of 49,471. That's a loss of 98,818 fans from just the knock-out cup rounds involving Wigan.. 

 

Club - 1991/92 - 2012 - (Loss)  

Wigan - 148,289 - 49,471 - (98,818)

St Helens - 120,397 - 26,569 - (93,828)

Leeds - 104,314 - 48,638 - (55,676)

Castleford - 95,155 - 8,130 - (87,025)

Widnes - 65,853 - 9,949 - (55,904)

Bradford - 62,887 - 2,959 - (59,928)

Hull - 51,750 - 28,273 - (23,477)

Warrington - 46,993 - 43,825 - (3,168)

Salford - 35,833 - 6,004 - (29,829)

Wakefield - 33,936 - 10,143 - (23,793)

Hull KR -17,401 - 14,206 - (3,195)

 

It's also worth noting that Featherstone and Halifax who were both in the First Division in 1991/92 accumulated the following attendances for cup games that year...

 

Featherstone - 53,051

Halifax - 47,012

 

Those attendances for cup games back in 1991/92 were primarily walk-up attendances where people paid at the turnstiles and some of them were excellent attendances. 

 

Like you say, today's fans purchase a heavily discounted season ticket for Super League and that's pretty much it, unless their club reaches the final of the Challenge Cup or the Grand Final. 

 

 

 That's a loss of 98,818 fans from just the knock-out cup rounds involving Wigan..   Or rather, a loss of gross revenue from the sale of tickets.  I wonder how that translated into net revenue...given the poor financial state of most clubs at the time, maybe they we e just incurring more losses.

 

Might be interesting to look at clubs net revenues in those "golden" days compared with now.

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 That's a loss of 98,818 fans from just the knock-out cup rounds involving Wigan..   Or rather, a loss of gross revenue from the sale of tickets.  I wonder how that translated into net revenue...given the poor financial state of most clubs at the time, maybe they we e just incurring more losses.

 

Might be interesting to look at clubs net revenues in those "golden" days compared with now.

 

That would be a very worthwhile exercise if all those revenue figures were widely known and available for comparative purposes. Unfortunately, all we have are attendance figures. 

 

My contention is that any increase in attendances during Super League is more than likely offset to a significant degree by the loss of attendances from all cup competitions in existence prior to Super League, a loss which I'd estimate at between 300K and 400K when comparing seasons 1991/92 to 2012.

 

Those cup attendance losses were also walk-up attendances of which we'll probably never see the likes of again. They've been replaced by discounted season ticket holders who are averse to attending any other games where they actually have to pay.

Edited by Pete M
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That would be a very worthwhile exercise if all those revenue figures were widely known and available for comparative purposes. Unfortunately, all we have are attendance figures. 

 

My contention is that any increase in attendances during Super League is more than likely offset to a significant degree by the loss of attendances from all cup competitions in existence prior to Super League, a loss which I'd estimate at between 300K and 400K when comparing seasons 1991/92 to 2012.

 

Those cup attendance losses were also walk-up attendances of which we'll probably never see the likes of again. They've been replaced by discounted season ticket holders who are averse to attending any other games where they actually have to pay.

 

 

Regarding your second paragraph....The figure may or may not be correct. But surely it is conjecture that any decline in cup competitions, if decline, is a result of going Super League. 

 

OK I can see the conjecture that more prevalent use of season tickets can impact walk-up gates for competitions that the season ticket doesn't apply to.   However, doesn't that also give an indication of what supporters think of the worth of attending those games.

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You're in the top 5 for volume of posts on this thread. No prizes for guessing who's made the most though :biggrin:

 

So what crime has been committed/rule broken then? Pray tell?

 

As for the comparisons of the top 4 CC clubs and the bottom 4 SL clubs there's a year to go yet and I note your prediction that nobody may ever go up, but pressure is again on the SL clubs not to be cut adrift, and the top eight will be happy to raid the bottom four for players. Remove the whipping boys and someone ends up in their place. Is your prediction based on salary cap differentials??

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That would be a very worthwhile exercise if all those revenue figures were widely known and available for comparative purposes. Unfortunately, all we have are attendance figures. 

 

A massive point. they may have flogged the players into 45 games (Wigan) and 42 (Leeds) in 1994/5 but you cant do that now. It's a professional RL business and business is about profit - you can turn over all the fans and players you want but if there's a big financial loss at the end of it then what's the point?

 

Besides as Derwent may agree we don't have to chase small fry sponsors in sideshows now a well tailored Superleague can attract £200,000,000 all in one go. 

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So what crime has been committed/rule broken then? Pray tell?

 

As for the comparisons of the top 4 CC clubs and the bottom 4 SL clubs there's a year to go yet and I note your prediction that nobody may ever go up, but pressure is again on the SL clubs not to be cut adrift, and the top eight will be happy to raid the bottom four for players. Remove the whipping boys and someone ends up in their place. Is your prediction based on salary cap differentials??

If we get 1 new club into SL from the middle group of 8 every year, or at least every couple of years, and we get close games with decent crowds it promises to be a cracking competition. Salary cap differential might be the decider 75% of the time, but injuries will also have a great bearing, one of the reasons why Fev & Sheffield are not doing as well as in previous years, regardless of off-field matters. Big money signings can't win games for you from the treatment table.   

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If we get 1 new club into SL from the middle group of 8 every year, or at least every couple of years, and we get close games with decent crowds it promises to be a cracking competition. Salary cap differential might be the decider 75% of the time, but injuries will also have a great bearing, one of the reasons why Fev & Sheffield are not doing as well as in previous years, regardless of off-field matters. Big money signings can't win games for you from the treatment table.

Which clubs do you think the new club will emerge from?

What in your view will be their chances of them being a power in the game, attracting a large audience and raising the sport's profile

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As for the comparisons of the top 4 CC clubs and the bottom 4 SL clubs there's a year to go yet and I note your prediction that nobody may ever go up, but pressure is again on the SL clubs not to be cut adrift, and the top eight will be happy to raid the bottom four for players. Remove the whipping boys and someone ends up in their place. Is your prediction based on salary cap differentials??

 

There's a whole host of variables which theoretically should always give the 4 SL clubs in the middle 8 an advantage. The salary cap is obviously a key one but it is in conjunction with other factors. SL clubs by implication have more income which enables them to be full time clubs. Not just full time playing squads but full time clubs with the requisite back-room personnel and facilities (have you seen how many people Wigan employ as support staff to their players for example). The likes of Leigh and Fev may have full time players but will they be full time clubs - there's a difference. There's also the issue of professionalism - putting someone who has been a part time player onto a full time contract does not necessarily make them "professional".

 

Spending the full salary cap is obviously a key factor in attracting better players but it doesn't always work out that way. I'd suggest that this season Cas are spending much less than Hull, but look at how their respective seasons have gone. Its not an exact science. The one thing that the 4 Championship clubs might have in their favour is confidence and momentum - they might be going into the middle 8 brimming with it after a succession of wins while the 4 SL clubs may be dispirited and on notable losing runs.

 

In theory, the bottom clubs in SL next season should be stronger teams than those this year due to the reduction in number of clubs. Two full squads worth of players won't be required across the board next season which means theoretically the 50 or so weakest players currently in SL would be jettisoned and thus the quality should go up. Might not work like that in reality but in theory it should.

 

Overall I'd tend to side with the theory that the only real chance of a Championship side going up is via the 4th v 5th play off match.

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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Regarding your second paragraph....The figure may or may not be correct. But surely it is conjecture that any decline in cup competitions, if decline, is a result of going Super League. 

 

Based on the cup attendance losses which I highlighted per club, that figure already amounted to over 300K. Clubs outside Division One in 1991/92 also produced cup attendances which would be unheard of today. For example, Workington recorded home attendances of 5,298 in the Challenge Cup and 3,499 in the Lancashire Cup, Oldham 5,814 in the Regal Trophy, Batley 3,089 in the Yorkshire Cup, Hunslet 3,182 in the Challenge Cup, Sheffield 3,227 in the Challenge Cup, Dewsbury 3,460 in the Challenge Cup, Hudds 4,799 in the Yorkshire Cup and 4,239 in the Regal Trophy, Bramley 3,484 in the Challenge Cup, Barrow 3,414 in the Challenge Cup. Swinton who were Division 1 but finished bottom and relegated in 1991/92 still recorded home cup attendances of 4,676 in the Challenge Cup and 3,285 in the Lancashire Cup. Estimating an aggregate attendance loss from cup games in the region of between 300K and 400K is therefore a not unreasonable estimation.

 

How can the decline in cup competitions and subsequent loss of associated cup attendances be down to anything else other than Super League?

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Based on the cup attendance losses which I highlighted per club, that figure already amounted to over 300K. Clubs outside Division One in 1991/92 also produced cup attendances which would be unheard of today. For example, Workington recorded home attendances of 5,298 in the Challenge Cup and 3,499 in the Lancashire Cup, Oldham 5,814 in the Regal Trophy, Batley 3,089 in the Yorkshire Cup, Hunslet 3,182 in the Challenge Cup, Sheffield 3,227 in the Challenge Cup, Dewsbury 3,460 in the Challenge Cup, Hudds 4,799 in the Yorkshire Cup and 4,239 in the Regal Trophy, Bramley 3,484 in the Challenge Cup, Barrow 3,414 in the Challenge Cup. Swinton who were Division 1 but finished bottom and relegated in 1991/92 still recorded home cup attendances of 4,676 in the Challenge Cup and 3,285 in the Lancashire Cup. Estimating an aggregate attendance loss from cup games in the region of between 300K and 400K is therefore a not unreasonable estimation.

How can the decline in cup competitions and subsequent loss of associated cup attendances be down to anything else other than Super League?

The county cups were abolished in 1993 before SL. The drive for abandonment came from the clubs, particularly the more successful ones because of the way it crowded the season and because of a decline in interest

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The county cups were abolished in 1993 before SL. The drive for abandonment came from the clubs, particularly the more successful ones because of the way it crowded the season and because of a decline in interest

 

That's interesting because during the last season of the Lancashire Cup in 1993, the final itself attracted an attendance of 20,534. St Helens also attracted 12,573 in the 2nd Round against Widnes and 9,289 against Salford. 

 

Super League play-off attendances these days would struggle to match those figures. Challenge Cup attendances for similar fixtures today would command even less.

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That's interesting because during the last season of the Lancashire Cup in 1993, the final itself attracted an attendance of 20,534. St Helens also attracted 12,573 in the 2nd Round against Widnes and 9,289 against Salford.

Super League play-off attendances these days would struggle to match those figures. Challenge Cup attendances for similar fixtures today would command even less.

I'm sure they did but the particular doesn't illustrate the general

And anyway the comps were discontinued in 1993

This was before the inception of SL

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I'm sure they did but the particular doesn't illustrate the general

 

The general often fails to illustrate the particular, in particular the huge losses in cup attendances since the advent of Super League.

 

Any attendance comparison worth it's salt ought to include them.

 

I was more than pleased to oblige on this occasion.

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The general often fails to illustrate the particular, in particular the huge losses in cup attendances since the advent of Super League.

Any attendance comparison worth it's salt ought to include them.

I was more than pleased to oblige on this occasion.

It did ought to include them, but it should include all the others as well

Yet again the county cups were abolished well before the advent of SL. If you are making a general point, which you appear to be doing, then your information should be apposite to it

But anyway are you advocating the reintroduction of the county cups and the regal/john player trophy? I'd be interested to see how you would go About it.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

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It did ought to include them, but it should include all the others as well

Yet again the county cups were abolished well before the advent of SL. If you are making a general point, which you appear to be doing, then your information should be apposite to it.

 

When figures are bandied about claiming attendances were 45% better than in 1991/92, it helps to apply some perspective by including cup attendances which were in the region of between 300k-400k more than in 2012. I'm pleased you agree they ought to be included and would also agree that attendances from the lower divisions should also be included for comparisons sake. Unfortunately, I don't have those figures. Taking them all into account however, I suspect there's not a great deal of difference between the 2012 gross attendance figures and 1991/92 gross figures for all league and cup games throughout all divisions.

 

The County Cups were abolished before the advent of Super League. However, the Regal Trophy and Premiership Trophy were not and both were direct casualties of Super League. If you are making a general point about cup competitions not being affected by the advent of Super League, which you appear to be doing, then the information you provide ought to include all cup competitions. I'll assume your omissions were an oversight rather than deliberate.

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Which clubs do you think the new club will emerge from?

What in your view will be their chances of them being a power in the game, attracting a large audience and raising the sport's profile

Anybodies guess? As a fan of the Championship I have realised that you can't buy success too easily, and the club with the best coach, best players, and highest wages bill doesn't always win, especially in knock-out competitions. Wakefield's successes over recent weeks, and Castleford's form this season has proved that, but as I said previously, injuries could play a major part. With Featherstone more likely to adopt a common sense approach now a certain person has left the club, I would expect Leigh and Fax to be forerunners, but I hope they don't fall flat on their faces trying too hard.

With regard to their chances of being a power in the game I feel they would be similar to most clubs outside the top 6, unable to attract crowds near or above 10K without regular successes, and if they ever achieve regular success then someone else will go on the slide. I don't know the geography around Leigh and its people but I know Calderdale almost as well as I know the WMDC area because of family connections, and I feel its people will only support a successful side. Basically, they would raise the sports profile about as much as the current clubs in the lower half of the table, and I can't see any way you can change that without throwing money into expansion projects doomed to fail unless the Big4/5 were willing to step aside and let expansion clubs have a financial and salary cap advantage so they might actually win something.   

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When figures are bandied about claiming attendances were 45% better than in 1991/92, it helps to apply some perspective by including cup attendances which were in the region of between 300k-400k more than in 2012. I'm pleased you agree they ought to be included and would also agree that attendances from the lower divisions should also be included for comparisons sake. Unfortunately, I don't have those figures. Taking them all into account however, I suspect there's not a great deal of difference between the 2012 gross attendance figures and 1991/92 gross figures for all league and cup games throughout all divisions.

The County Cups were abolished before the advent of Super League. However, the Regal Trophy and Premiership Trophy were not and both were direct casualties of Super League. If you are making a general point about cup competitions not being affected by the advent of Super League, which you appear to be doing, then the information you provide ought to include all cup competitions. I'll assume your omissions were an oversight rather than deliberate.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I said no such thing

You produced two attendance figures and said that this proved what a great thing the county cups were . So if I produced two really bad figures, would that prove that the county cups were a bad idea? No.

You have repeatedly said that these competitions were axed because of the advent of super league. Well that is clearly untrue since as I've pointed out more than once, one of them was abolished in 1993 two years before SL.

You cannot associate knock out competitions directly with league competitions.

A team could disappear from a comp after one game

A team could play all its games away from home

A team could play Opposition that was not its peer on or off the field.

The Premiership Trophy was replaced by he championship playoffs a much superior concept,

The regal trophy was abolished with the advent of super league, but it is arguable that it's days were numbered because of its association with cigarette smoking.

Would you have the premierships as well as the play offs?

Would you have the county cups when clubs from all over the country and beyond play pro rugby league?

Well you couldn't have a tobacco sponsored competition if you wanted to, so would you introduce another knock out competition?

What actually do you want?

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