The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Just before Parky gets hysterical about the figure for Hull's financial loss, they've invested a hell of a lot into the (underfunded) youth facilities in the last two years as well as other areas. They are budgeted losses.

Hull usually run on a profit. But let's not let facts get in the way of giving Parky a stick to beat the area with.

[Dave T]

The problem is that people say about attendances, especially for clubs who historically have only achieved around the 5k mark on average during the divisional era, that 'yeah but we'll be alright because we'll get all the away support from Leeds, Wigan, Hull Saints etc", that means that what they are saying is that we'll be alright because we'll get loads of away support, in effect relying on away support to financially make the club sustainable.

No club should be reliant on away support to survive.

i've never heard any club make that claim.

[The Parksider]

Attracting away fans isn't the issue, attracting them is good. Bradford have brought from around 4,000 to around 400 within a matter of a couple of seasons to Wigan.

 

Away attendances (along with home attendances) can vary depending on how well a club is doing from one season to the next. Hence clubs push for season ticket holders, the income is in the bank. Leeds may have lets say 7,000 season ticket holders, but 7,000 aren't going to pop in Wigan, if both teams are going well you may get a high proportion of away support if both are doing average then that figure could well start to tumble, but the vast majority of the home support is in the bank.

 

The variations in support depending on how the club is going in any particular season is in part under the control of the home clubs marketing team, they can offer incentives to keep people turning up, you can't offer incentives so easily to away supporters who losing interest in their own club due to their poor performance and marketing.

 

Only rely on that which you can at least have an element of control. Relying on something outside of your control is a dangerous strategy.

Fair enough as always.

I think Leeds have sent free tickets for my lad to attend away games which I assume is to entice me to go to away matches. Not sure if there's any joint marketing venture between clubs here??

Others may know??

But in a tightly run smaller well planned Superleague I would see it as great business for both clubs to promote any game in joint marketing ventures???

[Dave T]

Fair enough as always.

I think Leeds have sent free tickets for my lad to attend away games which I assume is to entice me to go to away matches. Not sure if there's any joint marketing venture between clubs here??

Others may know??

But in a tightly run smaller well planned Superleague I would see it as great business for both clubs to promote any game in joint marketing ventures???

yep - ive mentioned tgis in a different thread recently. Away games usually just get a mention in passing on club websites now.

There was a push a few years back with the away club getting 10% of sales and obviously there's the junior season ticket which gives away tickets free but it all feels very half-hearted now.

[The Parksider]

yep - ive mentioned tgis in a different thread recently. Away games usually just get a mention in passing on club websites now.

There was a push a few years back with the away club getting 10% of sales and obviously there's the junior season ticket which gives away tickets free but it all feels very half-hearted now.

Thanks for that Dave, sorry I missed your mention.

Again IMVHO any well run Superleague would be tight on member clubs co-ordinating marketing efforts for games between them, sharing best practices, and maybe even marketing the whole weekend round in a joint effort.

As well as a finance co-ordinator Superleague Europe Ltd could have a marketing co-ordinator.

One way or another I hope the time comes when our flagship clubs just stop this as you say "half hearted" drifting often towards disaster.

Edited January 8, 2014 by The Parksider

[Griff]

Use historical data of ST sales, add on to your squad if you have a late surge (clubs are still signing players)....most people renew early to get the early bird deals.....theoretically you would need around 8000 ST to spend full cap....if you have had 7000 ST holders for the last 10 years its safe to say you will be there or there abouts again!

 

If you only have 5000 ST holders then budget for that and use cash reserves to try to boost that number?

 

So you just guess then. 

 

What happens if you guess too high ?  Which is what a lot of clubs seem to do .....

[l'angelo mysterioso]

to quote dear old Frankie Howerd  "MADAM - please"

So: onanist it is then

[l'angelo mysterioso]

If fans were to vote on the future of Rugby League, in my opinion those fans that attend every game, home and away, should receive twice as many votes as those that only attend home games. There are some real stalwarts amongst the game's supporters and their wishes should not go unheeded.

How would that work?

Also people would vote for what suited them and their clubs

And anyway most 'stalwarts' support super league clubs

How Would that ensure that decisions were made for the good of the sport as a whole?

Would there be some kind of referendum every time a decision needed to be made?

 

Personally I'd go with a constitutional governing body, with information about and an appreciation of the big picture no self interest.

 

 

By the way Nigel wood fits your template perfectly

Edited January 8, 2014 by l'angelo mysterioso

[GaryO]

Well thanks for the responce mate, You have got it a bit wrong here and there, If you had read any more of my posts you would have seen , I have never championed my own club over another , I have repeatedly said i know exactly where we would be without KD. 

 

I have also always stressed It makes no difference whatever to me who the clubs are in Super league, and it doesn't. If the Giants benefacter wanked away tommorrow and we tumbled down the League to finish in the lowest  league , I would still watch Fartown  ( as i always have ) but i can tell you straight out it would not stop me wanting to watch SL on TV played to the highest standards it can be.  I don't want to switch on and watch Leeds or Saints  stick 60 points on Leigh or whoever every week, And don't tell me that it wont happen cause it happened to my team for 4 years, And that was a team with serious money behind them.

 

The reason i want the SL  chairmen to make a strong stand, Is becuse i have a lot more faith in them than i do in the RFL, as far as i can see The RFL has been sat on it's thumbs long enough, Dreaming up fancyful systems ,that replace other half tried systems, each one  claimed to be what is going to change the game to what it used to be, and bring back Fans in Thousands.

 

It's all a Dream, They may bring it in , But if they have any thoughts about it Revitalising the game , at all the clubs who are barely existing, and somehow take us back to the 50s while still being Magically in 2014, then it is a masive dream, There is not one thing other than an idea, That says one extra penny will be generated  in the game as a whole. There may well be a few quid in it for a few certain clubs , but it will inevitably come from other clubs.

 

Why do people not grasp the facts, Super league crowds have increased , CC are going backwards ,Sky don't want to know them, There own fans dont want to know them ( again i know the feeling ) Thats been happening for a long time now. A new format is going to put all this right in no time at all, 

 

Suddenly Sheffield are going to become a big club because they are going to be playing the likes of Wigan a few times, They beat Wigan at wembley years ago ,and pushed on to where exactly.

 

Gary , Yes i have supported Fartown for 60 years, some of those years worse that you want to know,  Before KD came along Huddersfield would never  ever have got to the top clubs in the game again, I believe that to be a fact, but i still watched them and would have done till they disapeared , But  i would still have " and did" watch all the top clubs on TV, Just because the Giants were not there didn't make the Leeds ,Bulls games any less enjoyable on TV.

 

You can believe me or otherwise as you see fit, but i feel the same now, I don't want anything to dillute the Elite game in any way, It's the flagship comp and It's what will keep the game alive at worst, and take it forward at best

 

I don't want to hold back any club Fev Fax , Leigh, Sheffield (I don't care who the Super league clubs are) But i want them to get to the same level before they go in, Rather than reduce the Elite level to accomodate them, ( which i think is a danger ) becuse anyone who thinks that a CC without either a huge amount of money ( could happen ) Or a huge crowd every week ( won't happen ) will be able to compete with  multy million clubs ,i would say are Dreamers.

 

I don't know what the decision will be any more than anyone else, I just hope that the SL chairmen make a strong case for keeping SL " Super", As far as i can see  ( world Cups apart ) it is the only bit of Rugby League anyone is interested in commecially, the main money generator, The providor of by far the majority of junior players, What people buy Dishes to watch.

 

What is to be gained by reducing the quality , or even risking it , Just to show a world ( who by and large don't give diddly  about League ) how fair we are , to all the smaller clubs whose fans are deserting them, because they dont get to play clubs who will just thrash them.

 

Perhaps my way may be best. I go to watch my club at whatever level it's playing (Years of at Bottom ) and i get to watch the elite teams on TV.

 

Fair enough Mr Strides, I applaud a guy who has convictions and sticks to them, at whatever the cost.

 

Maybe you are dead right in that your way may be the best way to go, but whichever way you dress it up it is quite apparent that you consider any team operating in the CC as of September 2013 should know their place and accept it.

 

Quote: -

 

Clubs who are barely existing, and somehow take us back to the 50s.

 

Initially for promotion, there is one extremely strong candidate – Fev, who from a group of 4  would be the most likely to, albeit to be fair to you, I think that Sheffield would be the team that would struggle to find more “home” support, than Fax or Leigh.  

 

There is not one thing other than an idea, that says one extra penny will be generated  in the game as a whole.

 

That is a very incongruous statement to make, if I am to be pedantic an increase of one on the crowd average of the promoted club would be extra income generated, Not being pedantic, I would wager that the promoted club would have more “home” support than would London, take more away support to games than would London, fans of clubs in the locality of the promoted club would probably attend that would not go to London, and finally I would not expect the RL to finance the promoted club as much(if at All) than they have London, that in itself although a saving is more money in the coffer’s.  

 

CC are going backwards  

 

Some, not all

 

 I don't want anything to dilute the Elite game in any way

 

Do you mean, financially, performance on the field, spectator numbers, or participating clubs in SL?

 

But i want them to get to the same level before they go in,

 

And how do you measure this?

 

Will be able to compete with  multy million clubs ,i would say are Dreamers.

 

So every club in SL without the Sky money falls into this bracket does it?

 

 I just hope that the SL chairmen make a strong case for keeping SL " Super",

 

Within the guidelines of the RL, if they deem to break away then there will be far more consequences than just playing in another league.  

 

What is to be gained by reducing the quality

 

Sorry to use the London state of affairs again, but just have a look at the Squads thread.

 

I also eluded to what would happen to the International team in my post, but you decided not to reply to the scenario that if SL formed their own competition against the RL’s authority the players would no longer be under the jurisdiction that would allow them selection, albeit you do state :-

 

As far as i can see  ( world Cups apart ) it is the only bit of Rugby League anyone is interested in commecially, the main money generator,

 

You omitted to mention the 3/4 nations, whether that was intentional or not, apparently this does not bother you, it is the Club v Country debate.

 

As an afterthought and I don’t know the answer to this, would the guys who are plying their trade in the antipodes still be qualified for selection? If yes, how many more would be tempted to go down under to maintain their international status if they play in a Rebel SL? Now that would Dilute SL.

 

Mr. Strides, I have no axe to grind with you, we both have our opinions, yours I understand but cannot agree with, and whatever the outcome of the RL meeting, I am sure there will be more debates to be had.

 

Finally, I do not know your background or your profession (I should imagine that you are retired, as I am) but I should imagine that you always had hopes, desires and aspirations along the life path you partook, and if anyone had tried to diminish those goals and ambitions you may have had some objections to them. I feel that by taking those qualities from some of those CC those with ambition to better themselves, we could be sucking the life blood from them.

[GaryO]

So: onanist it is then

 

And my presumption of you being female is also correct! 

[l'angelo mysterioso]

And my presumption of you being female is also correct! 

Good for you

[GaryO]

Good for you

 Finished

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Fair enough as always.

I think Leeds have sent free tickets for my lad to attend away games which I assume is to entice me to go to away matches. Not sure if there's any joint marketing venture between clubs here??

Others may know??

But in a tightly run smaller well planned Superleague I would see it as great business for both clubs to promote any game in joint marketing ventures???

Good point

In a way that's the case with magic weekend and Catalan games in perpignan, although the latter is handled by sports travel companies.

[Ponterover]

Fair enough Mr Strides, I applaud a guy who has convictions and sticks to them, at whatever the cost.

 

Maybe you are dead right in that your way may be the best way to go, but whichever way you dress it up it is quite apparent that you consider any team operating in the CC as of September 2013 should know their place and accept it.

 

Quote: -

 

Clubs who are barely existing, and somehow take us back to the 50s.

 

Initially for promotion, there is one extremely strong candidate – Fev, who from a group of 4  would be the most likely to, albeit to be fair to you, I think that Sheffield would be the team that would struggle to find more “home” support, than Fax or Leigh.  

 

There is not one thing other than an idea, that says one extra penny will be generated  in the game as a whole.

 

That is a very incongruous statement to make, if I am to be pedantic an increase of one on the crowd average of the promoted club would be extra income generated, Not being pedantic, I would wager that the promoted club would have more “home” support than would London, take more away support to games than would London, fans of clubs in the locality of the promoted club would probably attend that would not go to London, and finally I would not expect the RL to finance the promoted club as much(if at All) than they have London, that in itself although a saving is more money in the coffer’s.  

 

CC are going backwards  

 

Some, not all

 

 I don't want anything to dilute the Elite game in any way

 

Do you mean, financially, performance on the field, spectator numbers, or participating clubs in SL?

 

But i want them to get to the same level before they go in,

 

And how do you measure this?

 

Will be able to compete with  multy million clubs ,i would say are Dreamers.

 

So every club in SL without the Sky money falls into this bracket does it?

 

 I just hope that the SL chairmen make a strong case for keeping SL " Super",

 

Within the guidelines of the RL, if they deem to break away then there will be far more consequences than just playing in another league.  

 

What is to be gained by reducing the quality

 

Sorry to use the London state of affairs again, but just have a look at the Squads thread.

 

I also eluded to what would happen to the International team in my post, but you decided not to reply to the scenario that if SL formed their own competition against the RL’s authority the players would no longer be under the jurisdiction that would allow them selection, albeit you do state :-

 

As far as i can see  ( world Cups apart ) it is the only bit of Rugby League anyone is interested in commecially, the main money generator,

 

You omitted to mention the 3/4 nations, whether that was intentional or not, apparently this does not bother you, it is the Club v Country debate.

 

As an afterthought and I don’t know the answer to this, would the guys who are plying their trade in the antipodes still be qualified for selection? If yes, how many more would be tempted to go down under to maintain their international status if they play in a Rebel SL? Now that would Dilute SL.

 

Mr. Strides, I have no axe to grind with you, we both have our opinions, yours I understand but cannot agree with, and whatever the outcome of the RL meeting, I am sure there will be more debates to be had.

 

Finally, I do not know your background or your profession (I should imagine that you are retired, as I am) but I should imagine that you always had hopes, desires and aspirations along the life path you partook, and if anyone had tried to diminish those goals and ambitions you may have had some objections to them. I feel that by taking those qualities from some of those CC those with ambition to better themselves, we could be sucking the life blood from them.

 

Great post

[keighley]

Well you believe me or don't , But show me where i am wanting to hold any club back, Show me anyone who is stopping any CC from growing , I don't know of any SL club taking money from the championship, Nothing in the world is stopping Leigh being as big as Wigan except their own shortcomings, " and that's wigans fault is it", Or is it the whole of Super league.

 

I wish there were a Dr K coming into the game every day, If there was i could see some sence to this. The only thing i have said is that i want to see any team Promoted to SL be able to hack it and be a success, I don't want to see anyone go through the same thing my team did, year on year, or what happened to Fax, or  Leigh, It to me is quite pointless.

 

You make out that everything wrong is the fault of SL You are wanting a bigger share of the money SL generates, and dressing it all up as some sort of saviour of the game, in which all clubs are one big happy familly,

 

I want there to be a good vibrant league below SL, But isn't that where the RFL come in arn't they supposed to promote the game , shouldn't they be trying to get a TV deal for the Championship, A nice lucrative one so you can also help to fund the clubs in the lower league, because you surely have those in mind as well as your own club,

 

Whether you like it or not League has to go forward, It can't stay in the last Century with 30 clubs all in on big happy league, It's now all about money ( that's why my club are where they are ) and if it's not , Why are you so bothered about being in SL anyway.

 

A vibrant championship with it's on TV deal would be great and it would be a lot easier  to get to that point if the teams were playing for a SL spot. The very fact that RL is split into three divisions is proof that the 30 clubs in one big division is a thing of the past. I have seen no posters hearking for a return to that and in any event there are 37 clubs now.

 

What is galling to me is the desire for those in the SL to preserve it as a private club and keep other ambitious clubs out and the failures in SL in that league. Clubs want to be in SL because sport is about winning and the reason clubs exist is to win and the aim is to be the best and this means being in SL and winning the Grand Final as the ultimate. goal. 

[l'angelo mysterioso]

A vibrant championship with it's on TV deal would be great and it would be a lot easier  to get to that point if the teams were playing for a SL spot. The very fact that RL is split into three divisions is proof that the 30 clubs in one big division is a thing of the past. I have seen no posters hearking for a return to that and in any event there are 37 clubs now.

 

What is galling to me is the desire for those in the SL to preserve it as a private club and keep other ambitious clubs out and the failures in SL in that league. Clubs want to be in SL because sport is about winning and the reason clubs exist is to win and the aim is to be the best and this means being in SL and winning the Grand Final as the ultimate. goal. 

It isn't split into three divisions

At professional level it is split into two competitions one of which is split into two divisions

[keighley]

you are describing licensing!

 

Maybe, but that';;s just the way it is. It's not my preferred option.

[keighley]

the RFL want all clubs to be members, simms cross won the top division of tier 4, by the way they aren't being promoted. .....

Sheffield said they weren't in favour of the proposed system, most players wont want P&R and why would they? The promoted team loses their jobs.....the relegated team loose theirs....or they hold on for their contracts and become hated for bringing a club down!

P&R wasnt an issue during semi pro as the players day jobs didn't change, again if the championship was fully pro there would be no change!

do you not see this to be a problem?

Wheres the motivation to win if the end result is loosing your nice little earner playing part time RL?

 

The players are employees. The management runs the clubs and the clubs want p and r.

[Dave T]

Not sure if this has already been stated, but this article states that ALL Championship and Championship 1 clubs are supportive of the RFL structure changes, with 8 SL clubs required to vote yes to get this in.

 

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/all-clubs/super-league-needs-resolution-fast-pearson-1-6358884

 

Interesting comments from Steve Gill from Cas, who claims he has become bored of SL, and that his club have had an attitude of 'who cares'!

[yipyee]

If the players who play in the championships want to play in SL then they can do......the reason they dont is they are not good enough.....

 

If a club got promoted to SL the club would hire a whole new squad.......

 

Has anyone asked the players what they think the structure should be?

 

people are making comparisons to the real world (outside of sport) but in what other line of work would you be laid off for being successful?

 

I am for P & R, but before this can happen there needs to be a second Professional tier below SL, there needs to be a situation where after promotion the bulk of the squad is maintained to play at the higher level/lower level! Otherwise you don't have clubs...just thrown together teams...

[keighley]

You seem to have joined Mr. Keighley's "school of debate" here Mr. O. You decide what what someone is saying and you counter the argument you invented yourself.

 

But I have no campaign for mergers whatsoever. I have made it clear as best I can that IMVHO the far easier path to the "principle" of just one team in each area to get all the resources in one place, is to just put one team in each area. Let Hull FC represent Hull  in SL. Let Wakefield Trinity Wildcats at hopefully Newmarket, represent Wakefield MD in SL, Let Bradford represent the "Pennine area" in SL. Let Widnes represent the Halton District.

 

I've lived it, stardate 1980 when crowds were rising and Hull hit the first 10,000 average in many years.

 

Bramley 1,204

Hunslet  1,718

Leeds     6,681

 

Slowly but surely things changed as the sporting world changed then when the seizmic change of selling top level RL to SKY came along things accelerated. Leeds took on Bramley who could not survive in the new world as an "A" team then dropped them and they died 2000. Hunslet won promotion and the SLE showed them the door. Ironically Leeds have used them extensively as an "A" team last year - result - demotion to the league of death.

 

Whilst second tier semi pro RL in Leeds has virtually died out the resultant Super Superleague five times Superleague Champions in seven years now announce that they have their strongest squad ever for 2014 and all that without a Dr. Koucash. That is how IMVHO things are going.

 

So wouldn't it be fantastic for the game and those who love it, if the inevitable process that has seen it's near full course in the Leeds area was just given a push in other areas?? IMVHO it is bad business to just wait for things to happen, because it prolongs the agony, and costs the business a shedload. To start giving CC clubs money SL clubs need, and to bring back auto P & R, and dumb down Superleague because nobody has the balls to lead the game to where it IMVHO will end up anyway, and all "for the good of the game", smacks of cowardice.

 

To throw in the towel and retreat behind a wall of exclusion and contraction smacks of cowardice and defeatism and the long term effects of that, IMVHO will be the death of the game. Its doesn't take balls to contract. It takes balls to be visionary and fuel the expansion of the game by giving new areas a chance at the top.

 

Ultimately the goal should be to expand the size of SL. If the French want to develop their game as a part of SL, then there should ultimately be a French Conference operating alongside one or two English Conferences. Why should the game be condemned to a Northern ghetto plus Catalans because that';s what suits greedy, I'm alright Jack, incumbents

[yipyee]

So you just guess then. 

 

What happens if you guess too high ?  Which is what a lot of clubs seem to do .....

 

Then the chairmen put in the extra....which a lot of clubs seem to do!

 

my point is if your chairman doesnt want to do this then dont aim high! and to sit back and hope other clubs will bring lots of fans is madness!

[yipyee]

The players are employees. The management runs the clubs and the clubs want p and r.

 

So if the players dont want to be promoted then that would be easy to achieve would it not?

 

Stanley gene hinted at this on RL supermen did he not?

[Griff]

Then the chairmen put in the extra....which a lot of clubs seem to do!

 

my point is if your chairman doesnt want to do this then dont aim high! and to sit back and hope other clubs will bring lots of fans is madness!

 

One day, we'll run out of chairmen prepared to put in extra.  But - hey - not my problem.

[nadera78]

A vibrant championship with it's on TV deal would be great and it would be a lot easier  to get to that point if the teams were playing for a SL spot. The very fact that RL is split into three divisions is proof that the 30 clubs in one big division is a thing of the past. I have seen no posters hearking for a return to that and in any event there are 37 clubs now.

 

What is galling to me is the desire for those in the SL to preserve it as a private club and keep other ambitious clubs out and the failures in SL in that league. Clubs want to be in SL because sport is about winning and the reason clubs exist is to win and the aim is to be the best and this means being in SL and winning the Grand Final as the ultimate. goal.

If you think the championship can get a better tv deal then you need to look into the history of it a bit more. P&R won't change a thing in that regard.