The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Union have been trying to wring the neck of the RL chicken since 1895. They have not succeeded yet. As Winston Churchill said "some chicken, some neck ".

Despite all the known advantages of establishment support and top level aid and discriminatory practices, RL is still here. It has conquered Australia it is on the rise in New Zealand, it is spreading like the rising tide in the UK, it is rising like a Phoenix from the ashes in France and setting down increasingly strong and widespread roots in fertile soil from South Africa to continental Europe to the middle east and north America and the Pacific Islands.

 

Top level union is all but dead in our English RL heartlands. Their game is as marginalised in this country as ours. Despite RU's successes it has  serious problems of over spending by it's clubs and divisions at club level over Europe and the celtic nations are well upset with their treatment by England.

 

Our recent World Cup was well received by the general public.

 

I think Mr Murdoch, The Australian TV networks and the BBC  are well pleased with the viewing figures for RL.

 

As always our game is in various sorts of crisis but I am cautiously optimistic.

 

I don't like the 3 x 8 format but yet I wish it well. It will be new and precedent setting.

 

Winston may have said that, But who would you say is the stronger Country today. England or Germany.

 

Union may not have wrung Leagues neck yet , It just needs to hang about, League regularly shoots it's self in the foot, and occasionally tries to commit Suicide.

 

Union is played in Scotland, Ireland , Wales, most of England and just about every other country in the known world, They do have problems with money true ,But it seems to be about how to share out a masive amount of it, As opposed to League squabling over a small amount. I wish it were the other way round.

 

Your right about our World Cup , It was great and i hope it has inspired more TV coverage and more money.

 

Much as i dislike Union You have to admitt they have got themselves a slice of the cake, that makes league's look a bit sad. If viewing firures are as good or better for League, Why do they get so much more money than we do, ?  And why in comparison are we treated as second class by just about everyone ?, Could it possibly be that they have the right people in place to make sure they stay in the forefront.

[jpmc]

1. 34,000

2. 18,000

3. 146,000

Thanks,i had a feeling comparing Huddersfield to Hunslet & Swinton wasn't really a fair comparison

[Griff]

  Have to say i like your style. Could you organize a team to go and convert  some of the full stadiums at the 6 Nations,

 

Not everyone's smart, you know.

[dude02]

Precisely what I didn't understand.  Doesn't matter what sort of fan you are, Union is an inferior game.  If you're a Union fan, just front up and be honest about it.

Not for a union fan. A union fan thinks union is better than league, otherwise he'd be a league fan.

Or perhaps you reckon the typical union fan thinks league is better?

[Lobbygobbler]

Winston may have said that, But who would you say is the stronger Country today. England or Germany.

Union may not have wrung Leagues neck yet , It just needs to hang about, League regularly shoots it's self in the foot, and occasionally tries to commit Suicide.

Union is played in Scotland, Ireland , Wales, most of England and just about every other country in the known world, They do have problems with money true ,But it seems to be about how to share out a masive amount of it, As opposed to League squabling over a small amount. I wish it were the other way round.

Your right about our World Cup , It was great and i hope it has inspired more TV coverage and more money.

Much as i dislike Union You have to admitt they have got themselves a slice of the cake, that makes league's look a bit sad. If viewing firures are as good or better for League, Why do they get so much more money than we do, ? And why in comparison are we treated as second class by just about everyone ?, Could it possibly be that they have the right people in place to make sure they stay in the forefront.

You say Union is played in nearly every country in the world - do you work for the RFU or summat? RU is played in only a small number of additional countries to RL, i.e. Argentina, Italy (albeit still being a minor sport) and SA. RL is played in PNG whereas RU isnt

[dude02]

You say Union is played in nearly every country in the world - do you work for the RFU or summat? RU is played in only a small number of additional countries to RL, i.e. Argentina, Italy (albeit still being a minor sport) and SA. RL is played in PNG whereas RU isnt

below the 6N level union has a 7 division yearly international competition involving 36 nations.. in Europe alone. They have similar competitions for all the continents. PNG does have RU. In fact their national team made the FORU Oceania Cup (a yearly competition involving 9 Pacific nations) in 2013.

Also, the RLIF ranks 33 countries. The IRB ranks 101.

Edited January 30, 2014 by dude02

[keighley]

Winston may have said that, But who would you say is the stronger Country today. England or Germany.

 

Union may not have wrung Leagues neck yet , It just needs to hang about, League regularly shoots it's self in the foot, and occasionally tries to commit Suicide.

 

Union is played in Scotland, Ireland , Wales, most of England and just about every other country in the known world, They do have problems with money true ,But it seems to be about how to share out a masive amount of it, As opposed to League squabling over a small amount. I wish it were the other way round.

 

Your right about our World Cup , It was great and i hope it has inspired more TV coverage and more money.

 

Much as i dislike Union You have to admitt they have got themselves a slice of the cake, that makes league's look a bit sad. If viewing firures are as good or better for League, Why do they get so much more money than we do, ?  And why in comparison are we treated as second class by just about everyone ?, Could it possibly be that they have the right people in place to make sure they stay in the forefront.

 

The shirt answer is "Yes". 

 

The longer story is that our game is better, growing and I have no fear of RU. Someone on here was being condescending to me about being older than many. One of the pluses to that is that I can remember when the game in the UK was confined exclusively to Yorks, Lanc and Cumberland and that included all amateur or junior clubs. 

 

There was no game in Wales, no game in Scotland, Ireland or anywhere else in England. There were only 4 national teams in RL.

 

Now there are professional clubs in London and Wales, Sheffield and Gateshead, Oxford and Gloucestershire with Coventry promised. There was no RL in the armed forces or the Universities. Now we are in both those places and one University Club is semi pro. There is amateur RL throughout the length and breadth of all four home nations.

 

In Australia the game at a serious pro level was confined to Sydney with a minor competition in Brisbane. Now there are NRL teams in Canberra, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Newcastle, Penrith, Melbourne and Auckland and serious plans are afoot for expanding to Perth.

 

In NZ there was a weak presence with the Kiwis generally ranked 4th out of four. Nowadays they have won the 4 nations, the World Cup and have just sold 100,000 tickets for a nines competition.

 

Wales are a serious international team, despite their poor showing in the last WC. Their junior teams compete well with England.

 

France, having almost sunk, have a strong team in SL and could fill two stadia for WC group matches. Their juniors also give a very good account of themselves.

 

PNG is the national sport of the country and are to enter a team in the Queensland cup.

 

Fiji have finished in the top four in consecutive World Cups and a trial match for their team in Fiji drew 10,000 and the club and school game is booming.

 

At international level there were exactly four nations, Aus, GB, France and NZ. That was it, total. Now we can qualify 14 teams for the World Cup and there are teams throughout Europe, North America, the Caribbean, the Pacific Islands with an outpost in Lebanon and South Africa with other African nations interested. We can hold world cups for students, women and disabled people. At senior level the first WC final attracted 30,000. Last year we filled Old Trafford. 4,000 plus attended a Canada V USA game in Toronto. 

 

Rugby League players and coaches are in demand by RU. this is a tribute to the quality of our game

 

There are more top class modern stadia in RL today than ever before. Men with money are attracted to invest in our game.

 

So, whilst RU is a threat, I would say RL is the more progressive and is bigger than it has ever been. Whilst we need to watch them like a dangerous enemy, providing are careful, they are not a threat to RL. maybe, just maybe, RU should look over their shoulder at us.

[bobbruce]

below the 6N level union has a 7 division yearly international competition involving 36 nations.. in Europe alone. They have similar competitions for all the continents. PNG does have RU. In fact their national team made the FORU Oceania Cup (a yearly competition involving 9 Pacific nations) in 2013.

Also, the RLIF ranks 33 countries. The IRB ranks 101.

At least this thread will finally close now.

[The Parksider]

The Academy argument goes back to the 80s because in the 80s all the good Huddersfield lads ended up playing for Bradford, Halifax and even Wigan.  Nowadays, the good Halifax and, increasingly, Bradford lads end up playing for Huddersfield.  Swings and roundabouts.   The ascendency point isn't "yah boo", it's actually pointing out that when the boot was on the other foot, those clubs wasted no time in sticking it in.  What goes around comes around.

 

In terms of the Huddersfield Academy, I don't know what Ken Davy thinks about it.  Maybe you're right and he doesn't care.  Then again, the Giants first choice 17 has 4 Huddersfield Academy products in it - 2 of whom are England regulars who've never played for anyone else.    Sure, I'd like that to be 10 players, but 4 ain't bad and especially ain't bad when two of those are Leroy Cudjoe and Eorl Crabtree.      And then again, when the 20 man England Academy squad was announced last autumn it had more Huddersfield players (three) in it than any other club bar Wigan.  And just for fun, one of the two Wire Academy players selected came from Meltham All Blacks in Huddersfield. 

 

As for it needing improvement, I don't know what the criteria for that is.  I'll tell you what though, in the league last year the Giants U19s finished 5th.  Above the likes of those mighty rugby league nurseries Hull and Wakefield.     Personally, I don't think U19 results tell you a lot, but it's still there in black and white.

 

 

That's more like it!!

 

Anyway I picked out your sentence "when the boot was on the other foot, those clubs wasted no time in sticking it in". For me that says it all in that in your region (and others like Calder and Hull) where we see clubs sticking the boot into each other depending who is top dog and taking scarce resources to boost themselves at the expense of others.

 

Another May gem is "The Giants first choice 17 has 4 Huddersfield Academy products in it".

 

Steve, I don't know when Ken Davey seriously came on board to make Huddersfield a true Supeleague club, I would guess 2002 when the club were unbeaten on promotion from CC1 before 2,600 fans.

 

That's over TEN years ago and Ken has spent how many millions to develop 4 Huddersfield lads into professionals and find another 3,800 fans. Truly appalling stats that I expect to be even worse at Salford where there's even less junior clubs to develop players from and even more apathy for watching the club.

 

My point is a simple one and is not having a go at anyone. I don't think Superleague can afford to allow multi-millionaires to dictate their small clubs should be in Superleague, using their money to put the boot into bigger more resourceful clubs to the overall detriment of the flagship competition.

 

Bradford brought crowds of over 20,000 to Superleague and although they started late, they developed an effective academy that brought through talent in number other clubs are now picking off as they stick the boot in the Bulls.

 

Superleague will never grow whilst it continues this sort of nonsense.....

[Griff]

Not for a union fan. A union fan thinks union is better than league, otherwise he'd be a league fan.

Or perhaps you reckon the typical union fan thinks league is better?

 

If he doesn't, he's just wrong.

 

Many people have mistaken views on many subjects.  It doesn't add credence to their opinions.

[The Parksider]

It would be great to see Stadiums full again, until such times are upon us we have to go with what we have, that is the reality, I don't know why these money men pick the clubs they do,( I make no excuse for Fartown taking Bradfords place with a less fan base), maybe you could talk one of them into changing clubs.

 

What for? So they can just buy up players from the bigger clubs and bring them down, whilst doing little to improve crowds at their own club whilst depleting crowds at others.

 

That is the reality and no we do not have to go with what we have. We have two strong areas in Calder and Bradhudderfax, and I'd remind you that when Bradford were competing they could turn crowds as high as 23,000 for Leeds. Huddersfield managed 7,756 for the same fixture last year.

 

I want those missing 15,000 fans paying to watch Superleague, not Ken Davey writing cheques for the losses.  Superleague needs private investment in the right places and on the right things. Yes we need someone to bankroll Wakey and Bradford, but because they aren't there it s no reason to watch them disintegrate whilst houses of cards are built at small clubs.

[sweaty craiq]

I am a happy man today and can't wait for the next phase in growing our fantastic sport via a committed broadcaster who see's the bigger picture

Two completely FT tens will be the logical next phase in three years, then 10/12 then 12/12 with a funded pt tier below it

[a.n Other]

Yes we need someone to bankroll Wakey and Bradford, but because they aren't there it s no reason to watch them disintegrate whilst houses of cards are built at small clubs.

When did Wakey stop being a small club? I must have missed it.

[The Parksider]

When did Wakey stop being a small club? I must have missed it.

 

I didn't, they hit the buffers financially at a time when they had rising crowds of over 6,000 on an anticipation of getting the quality stadium the area needed. The new Chairman saved the club and rallied the fans to further crowd improvements to an average of 8,172, not bad when the club only sneaked into eighth place.

 

They were the eighth best supported club in Superleague 2012, and anyone who knows what effect a new stadium has on Superleague clubs in big traditional areas like Warrington and Hull knows they add thousands to the gate.

 

You need to look at how big the City is compared to small places like Castleford and Featherstone, do you want me to do the figures? I noted when Wakefield got 11,000 in for a relegation decider just what support there is out there if the club can get the ground and the finances.

 

Did you see last season they had a 10,000 crowd for Leeds in a re-arranged late  season game and remained the eighth best supported club in Superleague despite sever financial problems and dropping into the bottom four??

 

Would you have called Hull a "small club" in 1998 when they finished in the same place as Wakefield last year on much smaller crowds of 5,741. How about Warrington were they a "small club" that same year when they finished just under Hull on 4,897 ??

 

Superleague is a business yet it restructures as a rich mans lottery. Small clubs like Fartown, Salford and Featherstone are set to fly whilst clubs like Wakefield and Bradford are set to fall, True businesses look for the best investments and back them.

 

Would you doubt that with a new ground the eighth biggest RL club in Europe could not kick on and become the giant it once was, would you doubt that if that club had full access to the second biggest Junior set up in Europe - Wakefield MDC - they wouldn't be able to be as big as Leeds and Wigan?

 

If Wakefield are small the lord help the smaller than smalls......

[Terry Mullaney]

I didn't, they hit the buffers financially at a time when they had rising crowds of over 6,000 on an anticipation of getting the quality stadium the area needed. The new Chairman saved the club and rallied the fans to further crowd improvements to an average of 8,172, not bad when the club only sneaked into eighth place.

 

They were the eighth best supported club in Superleague 2012, and anyone who knows what effect a new stadium has on Superleague clubs in big traditional areas like Warrington and Hull knows they add thousands to the gate.

 

You need to look at how big the City is compared to small places like Castleford and Featherstone, do you want me to do the figures? I noted when Wakefield got 11,000 in for a relegation decider just what support there is out there if the club can get the ground and the finances.

 

Did you see last season they had a 10,000 crowd for Leeds in a re-arranged late  season game and remained the eighth best supported club in Superleague despite sever financial problems and dropping into the bottom four??

 

Would you have called Hull a "small club" in 1998 when they finished in the same place as Wakefield last year on much smaller crowds of 5,741. How about Warrington were they a "small club" that same year when they finished just under Hull on 4,897 ??

 

Superleague is a business yet it restructures as a rich mans lottery. Small clubs like Fartown, Salford and Featherstone are set to fly whilst clubs like Wakefield and Bradford are set to fall, True businesses look for the best investments and back them.

 

Would you doubt that with a new ground the eighth biggest RL club in Europe could not kick on and become the giant it once was, would you doubt that if that club had full access to the second biggest Junior set up in Europe - Wakefield MDC - they wouldn't be able to be as big as Leeds and Wigan?

 

If Wakefield are small the lord help the smaller than smalls......

Attendances did look very good last season for the Wildcats so it's worrying then that apparently they've only sold 2000 season tickets this time against over 4000 last pre season

According to some reports on their forum there were lots of free tickets circulating last season as well as some forged season tickets. On top of that season tickets were very cheap, up to half price of normal match day admission prices if bought early enough.

The new chairman, who seems to be doing a great job at sorting out the debts, is by the looks of things seeking to apply a more realistic pricing structure as well as cutting down the freebies and abuse. It will be interesting to see how their gates hold up during the coming season. Hopefully those people who benefitted from the good deals previously will have enjoyed it enough to stick with the club.

[a.n Other]

I see The capacity has been cut at Wakefield's Stadium. Now only just over 5k.

[DAZROVER1985]

I didn't, they hit the buffers financially at a time when they had rising crowds of over 6,000 on an anticipation of getting the quality stadium the area needed. The new Chairman saved the club and rallied the fans to further crowd improvements to an average of 8,172, not bad when the club only sneaked into eighth place.

They were the eighth best supported club in Superleague 2012, and anyone who knows what effect a new stadium has on Superleague clubs in big traditional areas like Warrington and Hull knows they add thousands to the gate.

You need to look at how big the City is compared to small places like Castleford and Featherstone, do you want me to do the figures? I noted when Wakefield got 11,000 in for a relegation decider just what support there is out there if the club can get the ground and the finances.

Did you see last season they had a 10,000 crowd for Leeds in a re-arranged late season game and remained the eighth best supported club in Superleague despite sever financial problems and dropping into the bottom four??

Would you have called Hull a "small club" in 1998 when they finished in the same place as Wakefield last year on much smaller crowds of 5,741. How about Warrington were they a "small club" that same year when they finished just under Hull on 4,897 ??

Superleague is a business yet it restructures as a rich mans lottery. Small clubs like Fartown, Salford and Featherstone are set to fly whilst clubs like Wakefield and Bradford are set to fall, True businesses look for the best investments and back them.

Would you doubt that with a new ground the eighth biggest RL club in Europe could not kick on and become the giant it once was, would you doubt that if that club had full access to the second biggest Junior set up in Europe - Wakefield MDC - they wouldn't be able to be as big as Leeds and Wigan?

If Wakefield are small the lord help the smaller than smalls......

wakefield won't be getting any big crowds anytime soon ground capacity has been reduced to 5300 due to safety

[dude02]

If he doesn't, he's just wrong.

 

Many people have mistaken views on many subjects.  It doesn't add credence to their opinions.

Also, blue is the best colour and anyone who disagrees is just wrong. 

[Ackroman]

Also, blue is the best colour and anyone who disagrees is just wrong. 

 

I agree the grass has always been blue but greener on the other side

[Steve May]

wakefield won't be getting any big crowds anytime soon ground capacity has been reduced to 5300 due to safety

 

 

The curse of "big club" Wakefield strikes again....

[Steve May]

What for? So they can just buy up players from the bigger clubs and bring them down, whilst doing little to improve crowds at their own club whilst depleting crowds at others.

 

That is the reality and no we do not have to go with what we have. We have two strong areas in Calder and Bradhudderfax, and I'd remind you that when Bradford were competing they could turn crowds as high as 23,000 for Leeds. Huddersfield managed 7,756 for the same fixture last year.

 

 

Ooh, that's a bit disingenuous Parky. 

 

When Bradford were competing they could turn crowds as high as 23,000.    But they didn't do that very often.   In fact, the very height of Bullmania only produced one year where average crowds were more than 15,000, and Bradford City often outstripped them.   I think there were only 7 or 8 matches across the whole of Bullmania that pulled in 20k plus.    They did have a long run of games against Leeds where they pulled in big crowds consistently though, I'll give you that.

 

Alas, because of some poor management choices and a long term lack of investment in facilities (the curse of RL), it proved unsustainable and Bradford are now worse off than in the old Northern days.

 

Anyway I'm pretty sure that Huddersfield drew about 11,000 to a game against Leeds last year, an unimaginably huge figure to a young lad stood on the terrace at Fartown.   I hope that Huddersfield continue to build and that a similar rivalry can develop between the two clubs.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

You say Union is played in nearly every country in the world - do you work for the RFU or summat? RU is played in only a small number of additional countries to RL, i.e. Argentina, Italy (albeit still being a minor sport) and SA. RL is played in PNG whereas RU isnt

 

I dislike Union as much as you do, In fact i hate it for what it has done to League in the past. That does not stop me from seeing what's real, Rugby league is played in London as is Union, Which is the bigger sport in London.

 

The same is true World wide, If you carn't accept that, so be it.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

I agree the grass has always been blue but greener on the other side

 

Especially if you live in Kentucky

[Griff]

Also, blue is the best colour and anyone who disagrees is just wrong. 

 

Comical.

 

Give me one objective criterion where union is superior to league.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

The shirt answer is "Yes". 

 

The longer story is that our game is better, growing and I have no fear of RU. Someone on here was being condescending to me about being older than many. One of the pluses to that is that I can remember when the game in the UK was confined exclusively to Yorks, Lanc and Cumberland and that included all amateur or junior clubs. 

 

There was no game in Wales, no game in Scotland, Ireland or anywhere else in England. There were only 4 national teams in RL.

 

Now there are professional clubs in London and Wales, Sheffield and Gateshead, Oxford and Gloucestershire with Coventry promised. There was no RL in the armed forces or the Universities. Now we are in both those places and one University Club is semi pro. There is amateur RL throughout the length and breadth of all four home nations.

 

In Australia the game at a serious pro level was confined to Sydney with a minor competition in Brisbane. Now there are NRL teams in Canberra, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Newcastle, Penrith, Melbourne and Auckland and serious plans are afoot for expanding to Perth.

 

In NZ there was a weak presence with the Kiwis generally ranked 4th out of four. Nowadays they have won the 4 nations, the World Cup and have just sold 100,000 tickets for a nines competition.

 

Wales are a serious international team, despite their poor showing in the last WC. Their junior teams compete well with England.

 

France, having almost sunk, have a strong team in SL and could fill two stadia for WC group matches. Their juniors also give a very good account of themselves.

 

PNG is the national sport of the country and are to enter a team in the Queensland cup.

 

Fiji have finished in the top four in consecutive World Cups and a trial match for their team in Fiji drew 10,000 and the club and school game is booming.

 

At international level there were exactly four nations, Aus, GB, France and NZ. That was it, total. Now we can qualify 14 teams for the World Cup and there are teams throughout Europe, North America, the Caribbean, the Pacific Islands with an outpost in Lebanon and South Africa with other African nations interested. We can hold world cups for students, women and disabled people. At senior level the first WC final attracted 30,000. Last year we filled Old Trafford. 4,000 plus attended a Canada V USA game in Toronto. 

 

Rugby League players and coaches are in demand by RU. this is a tribute to the quality of our game

 

There are more top class modern stadia in RL today than ever before. Men with money are attracted to invest in our game.

 

So, whilst RU is a threat, I would say RL is the more progressive and is bigger than it has ever been. Whilst we need to watch them like a dangerous enemy, providing are careful, they are not a threat to RL. maybe, just maybe, RU should look over their shoulder at us.

 

I accept everything you say about the spread of League World wide. I think you know my point was about the level of the two games, in Probably every country in the world other than Oz, One or two minor exceptions.

 

The days when League would sign good union players have been reversed , It is them signing our best players now, ( something that needs to stop ) How many top Aussie Union players now cross to League ,as opposed to League players going over to Union. Look at this weekends Nat papers and see who's getting full page spreads ,as opposed to a 2" in a coloumn somewhere.

 

Unpleasant as i find it I don't think Union needs to look over their shoulder at us. Where are A Farrell and S Edwards and the like these days, Our games top players , coaching the opposition, and who can blame them , they have famillies like everyone else.

 

Much as i dislike whoever is running that game , I wish we had some just like them.