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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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ay??

No promotion to SL this year....2 down. ...

From next year a little tournament which will never see a team promoted! !!

At least under licencing 1 club was guaranteed to come up every 3 years!

 

The earliest a team currently in the Championship will be playing in Super League is 2016 is all we can say right now.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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In theory but don't bet your house on it. The deck is stacked in favour of the incumbents.

 

Absolutely.  The only crack I can see is that I struggle to see London existing at the end of 2014 so a space opens up.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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They have Toulouse rubber stamped for that vacancy.

 

They may have but it would go against what they've actually written and got the clubs to vote for.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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They may have but it would go against what they've actually written and got the clubs to vote for.

 

I think that comes under the hoisted on your own petard column. It will be interesting to see what shenanigans are rolled out to get round their written and voted protestations.

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Well, we're stuck with it now and I suppose we need to prove it's a load of old nonsense before people will let it drop. 

 

I'm amused by the notion that the middle division will be producing all the interest and all the crowds - that goes diametrically against what little experience of it that we have.

 

Let's hope that clubs don't manage to bankrupt themselves chasing the dream before the game comes to its senses.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Well, we're stuck with it now and I suppose we need to prove it's a load of old nonsense before people will let it drop. 

 

I'm amused by the notion that the middle division will be producing all the interest and all the crowds - that goes diametrically against what little experience of it that we have.

 

Let's hope that clubs don't manage to bankrupt themselves chasing the dream before the game comes to its senses.

The license system did great for club finances, a real revelation!!

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The licence system did great for club finances, a real revelation!!

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

This system actively encourages overspending - that's the difference.

 

Maybe we should make club directors personally responsible for their club's debts.  Then we might see more financial common sense.

Edited by Griff

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

This system actively encourages overspending - that's the difference.

 

Maybe we should make club directors personally responsible for their club's debts.  Then we might see more financial common sense.

 

How does it encourage overspending? It encourages investment to reach goals, if a club is foolish enough to accept that as loans then that is their stupidity, I believe the money lined up at Leigh is in shares, and is significant.

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1. This system actively encourages overspending - that's the difference.Let's hope that clubs don't manage to bankrupt themselves chasing the dream before the game comes to its senses.

2. I'm amused by the notion that the middle division will be producing all the interest and all the crowds - that goes diametrically against what little experience of it that we have.

1. I aren't sure that it wasn't licensing that caused clubs to overspend?? Didn't the uprating of stadiums, the staffing of backrooms, the spending on academy facilities and the desire that clubs spend full cap too push many clubs into debt??

Aren't we saying that ridding the game of licensing and the financial hoops clubs have to jump through is a way of allowing SL clubs to reduce budgets and debts?

I did try to suggest to Mr. Sadler last week that there is no evidence of clubs going for broke at all, quite the opposite as they look to shed costs and sell off players.

Today he was at it again saying that clubs would overspend to "chase the dream". However I am at a loss here as firstly the salary cap reduces overspend and secondly the available pool of the top 200 players is pretty much tied up in the top eight clubs.

Who are clubs going to overspend on and how??? Maybe Mr. Sadler will take pity and let us know?

2. Indeed, there's however a very large opinion that nothing will change much, one advocate suggested there would be "one or two shocks", have we really made such a radical change for "one or two shocks".

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Absolutely.  The only crack I can see is that I struggle to see London existing at the end of 2014 so a space opens up.

 

 

But that space would be in the championship so:

 

A) Toulouse come in......

B ) Leigh will be saved from getting relegated to champ 1...(again).....

 

It would not free up a SL space.......

 

Therefore as said there is no chance a current championship club will be playing in SL anytime soon!!!

Edited by yipyee
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Who are clubs going to overspend on and how??? Maybe Mr. Sadler will take pity and let us know?

I'm sure there will be a big temptation by some Championship clubs to overspend this coming season with high stakes that have put on being in the second 12 of 24 teams. With, at the present time, 5 teams to be relegated, from a financial point of view there will be a vast difference in funding. The 23rd team of the 2 leagues (or 9th placed Championship team) will collect around £160k and the promoted team £150k, whilst the relegated teams pick a one-off payment of £25k and the £75k that all the Championship 1 clubs will receive.

This of course is all dependant on the SL clubs allowing some of the Sky money to flow down to the lower leagues but I'm sure all Championship clubs will want to be in the top 9 in their league this season, just in case!!!

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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How does it encourage overspending? It encourages investment to reach goals, if a club is foolish enough to accept that as loans then that is their stupidity, I believe the money lined up at Leigh is in shares, and is significant.

 

Well, once again - "investment".  What's the return on this "investment" ?

 

It encourages overspending because the funding structure means that the only way a Div 2 club can compete with a $uperleague club is to borrow money from - or issue worthless shares to - "investors". There's no way they can compete on trading income alone.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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1. I aren't sure that it wasn't licensing that caused clubs to overspend?? Didn't the uprating of stadiums, the staffing of backrooms, the spending on academy facilities and the desire that clubs spend full cap too push many clubs into debt??

Aren't we saying that ridding the game of licensing and the financial hoops clubs have to jump through is a way of allowing SL clubs to reduce budgets and debts?

I did try to suggest to Mr. Sadler last week that there is no evidence of clubs going for broke at all, quite the opposite as they look to shed costs and sell off players.

Today he was at it again saying that clubs would overspend to "chase the dream". However I am at a loss here as firstly the salary cap reduces overspend and secondly the available pool of the top 200 players is pretty much tied up in the top eight clubs.

Who are clubs going to overspend on and how??? Maybe Mr. Sadler will take pity and let us know?

.

 

I do take your point here - it'll be interesting to see how persuasive the ambitious Div 2 clubs are.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Championship clubs are still operating on the existing salary cap which I believe is £300k.Therefore any extra outlay shouldn't take place until next season. It will be interesting to see the kind of players they attract - and how many overseas players they will be allowed.

 

Indeed.  We have a long wait ahead.

 

And - again - the salary caps and tv share-outs have yet to be agreed.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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I'm sure there will be a big temptation by some Championship clubs to overspend this coming season with high stakes that have put on being in the second 12 of 24 teams. With, at the present time, 5 teams to be relegated, from a financial point of view there will be a vast difference in funding. The 23rd team of the 2 leagues (or 9th placed Championship team) will collect around £160k and the promoted team £150k, whilst the relegated teams pick a one-off payment of £25k and the £75k that all the Championship 1 clubs will receive.

Well for the championship SL wannabees it will be fascinating seeing if any of them do put a lot of money where their mouth is, or wether all the moans and groans about we can do better were just hot air. For those threatened with the "league of death" it will be important to try to stay out of that.

I keep forgetting that the new structure doesn't stop at fev, fax, leigh and Sheffield!!!

I will be fascinated to see how the crowds go at the clubs who won't be able to compete in the middle eight and end their seasons in a third tier, also the crowds of five clubs who end up in the fourth tier.

Any calculation as to "increased crowds" in this new structure has to take into the reckoning a lot of decreased crowds by the looks of it??

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Championship clubs are still operating on the existing salary cap which I believe is £300k.Therefore any extra outlay shouldn,t take place until next season. It will be interesting to see the kind of players they attract-and how many overseas players they will be allowed.

That is quite correct but it is this seasons placings that will determine where you play next season and, if the money is forthcoming at the end of this season, it could mean a difference of £60k+ to a relegated team.    That is how important it is to some of these clubs to be in the top 9 this season.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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I keep forgetting that the new structure doesn't stop at fev, fax, leigh and Sheffield!!!

 

 

Indeed - and it's likely - though not certain - that two of those clubs will be consigned to an anticlimactic end to the season in the Third Eight.  The effect on gates on this division will be interesting.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Well for the championship SL wannabees it will be fascinating seeing if any of them do put a lot of money where their mouth is, or wether all the moans and groans about we can do better were just hot air. For those threatened with the "league of death" it will be important to try to stay out of that.

I keep forgetting that the new structure doesn't stop at fev, fax, leigh and Sheffield!!!

I will be fascinated to see how the crowds go at the clubs who won't be able to compete in the middle eight and end their seasons in a third tier, also the crowds of five clubs who end up in the fourth tier.

Any calculation as to "increased crowds" in this new structure has to take into the reckoning a lot of decreased crowds by the looks of it??

Not sure what you mean by fourth tier?,isn't the sport staying at three tiers?

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In theory but don't bet your house on it. The deck is stacked in favour of the incumbents.

 

The deck may appear to be stacked in favor of the top SL clubs, but would you not say that whatever system you played the best teams would always end up at the top, and the reason they are the best teams is because they are the rich ones (so to speak ).

 

One thing that i think is a real possibility is that the whole standard will drop if the system stays long enough, I'm not saying it definitely will but It is definitely a possibility,

 

If there are chairmen (as Parky says, and i don't doubt him ) that are wanting to reduce the money they are having to put into their clubs to keep them competitive with the top, It stands to reason the will have to go for a lower class player, This then brings about the Super 8 that is talked about. What is to stop the same thing happening as did with the 14 side SL,

 As the comp gets more intense at the very top, maybe more chairmen will fall by the wayside and opt for the less competitive ( and cheaper second 8 league ), If that was to transpire you then have 3/4s  or more playing at a lower level, which to me is the worst possible outcome.

 

I can visualise there being a Super 6 not too far into the future. Worst case scenario ? yes ! but for me It's as feasible as the forecast of the thousands that are supposed to be going to flock to the second class games.

 

I think there is a real danger of club's trying to get into the top 12 each year, not particularly to compete but to get the funding, If 3/4s more chairmen go down this route, the same clubs would almost be guaranteed to be P and R  each season, which would mean that todays C clubs like Fev Fax whoever would be no farther forward than now, ( unless they get a very rich man ) and most of the game would be at a lower standard.

 

Does that make sense .

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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The policy document clearly explains what a tier is.

 

Based on current names:

 

Super League (12 teams) - Tier 1

Championship (12 teams) - Tier 2

Championship 1 (the rest!) - Tier 3

 

Thanks. That's helpful.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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