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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Well, once again - "investment".  What's the return on this "investment" ?

 

It encourages overspending because the funding structure means that the only way a Div 2 club can compete with a $uperleague club is to borrow money from - or issue worthless shares to - "investors". There's no way they can compete on trading income alone.

 

You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

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You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

And what is it before anything else? You seem to have your finger on the pulse.

What you are aware of you are in control of; what you are not aware of is in control of you.

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You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

glazer family

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yipiyee, you found one, maybe?

they bought the club with debt, man utd now pay this debt off....they jet all over the world on company card......

hicks and Gillette tried this with the scousers, bought them was gonna lend money to build a stadium, the profits of which would pay the debt off......the problem was they borrowed 30 mill to buy torres, they couldn't pay this back. .....

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The deck may appear to be stacked in favor of the top SL clubs, but would you not say that whatever system you played the best teams would always end up at the top, and the reason they are the best teams is because they are the rich ones (so to speak ).

 

One thing that i think is a real possibility is that the whole standard will drop if the system stays long enough, I'm not saying it definitely will but It is definitely a possibility,

 

If there are chairmen (as Parky says, and i don't doubt him ) that are wanting to reduce the money they are having to put into their clubs to keep them competitive with the top, It stands to reason the will have to go for a lower class player, This then brings about the Super 8 that is talked about. What is to stop the same thing happening as did with the 14 side SL,

 As the comp gets more intense at the very top, maybe more chairmen will fall by the wayside and opt for the less competitive ( and cheaper second 8 league ), If that was to transpire you then have 3/4s  or more playing at a lower level, which to me is the worst possible outcome.

 

I can visualise there being a Super 6 not too far into the future. Worst case scenario ? yes ! but for me It's as feasible as the forecast of the thousands that are supposed to be going to flock to the second class games.

 

I think there is a real danger of club's trying to get into the top 12 each year, not particularly to compete but to get the funding, If 3/4s more chairmen go down this route, the same clubs would almost be guaranteed to be P and R  each season, which would mean that todays C clubs like Fev Fax whoever would be no farther forward than now, ( unless they get a very rich man ) and most of the game would be at a lower standard.

 

Does that make sense .

 

The deck is more stacked in favour of the bottom four SL clubs who will fall into the middle 8. They will be playing with a full battle hardened SL squad on SL salary cap against teams who have played a championship season against such powers as Rochdale, Keighley and Crusaders on a much smaller budget although it is going to be sweetened a bit but not enough.

 

Given these circumstances it is highly unlikely that a Championship team will able to mount a credible challenge for one of the promotion spots and I think it will be rare when there is a promotion from this group.

 

A 2 x 12, straight p and r would have, subject to standards being met, guaranteed promotion.

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You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

 

That's an excellent to the point reply, but doesn't it (again) depend on wether the money is against any assets i.e. the ground/land?? If that is the final return ithen that is to the long term detriment of the club.

 

Less and less clubs seem to have assets of this kind. The next question is what return is there for the game with this philanthropy? If the Philanthropist pays for five thousand empty seats in the stadium and outbids clubs who develop pro players for their services then he is building a house of cards.

 

That is then to the detriment of clubs aiming to invest in and develop the games professional player pool. If Ken Davey can't be bothered with an academy as is alleged and buys Bradfords best youngsters why should Bradford bother to develop them in the first place.

 

Take all this to it's extreme. There are those on here who support the idea of mega rich men suddenly appearing to elevate Leigh above Wigan, Keighley above Bradford. Fev above Wakey/Cas, etc.

 

What is the best situation for the game? The 12 biggest clubs using Superleague to grow the playing roster and the paying crowds??

 

Or the 12 smallest clubs propped up by a philanthropic £4Million a year until the owner gets bored, runs into business problems or dies.

 

Can we really afford Messrs Davey and Koucash to prop up essentially small clubs, whilst bigger clubs like Wakefield and Bradford flounder for want of charity?? Remember if Koucash had not stepped in Salford would be no more for all the tens of £Millions Wilkinson put in.

 

I think not. There is no great point to throwing £Millions in the wrong place just to make an individual happy. We should take every penny of philanthropy we can but SL places should not be open to being playthings, and SL clubs should grow the game, not puffed up ego's.

Edited by The Parksider
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You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

 

What is the tax advantage ?

 

Add the bloke who bought Third Lanark in 1962 and the bloke who sold Everton to Betty Turpin's lad to that list.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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That's an excellent to the point reply, but doesn't it (again) depend on wether the money is against any assets i.e. the ground/land?? If that is the final return ithen that is to the long term detriment of the club.

Less and less clubs seem to have assets of this kind. The next question is what return is there for the game with this philanthropy? If the Philanthropist pays for five thousand empty seats in the stadium and outbids clubs who develop pro players for their services then he is building a house of cards.

That is then to the detriment of clubs aiming to invest in and develop the games professional player pool. If Ken Davey can't be bothered with an academy as is alleged and buys Bradfords best youngsters why should Bradford bother to develop them in the first place.

Take all this to it's extreme. There are those on here who support the idea of mega rich men suddenly appearing to elevate Leigh above Wigan, Keighley above Bradford. Fev above Wakey/Cas, etc.

What is the best situation for the game? The 12 biggest clubs using Superleague to grow the playing roster and the paying crowds??

Or the 12 smallest clubs propped up by a philanthropic £4Million a year until the owner gets bored, runs into business problems or dies.

Can we really afford Messrs Davey and Koucash to prop up essentially small clubs, whilst bigger clubs like Wakefield and Bradford flounder for want of charity?? Remember if Koucash had not stepped in Salford would be no more for all the tens of £Millions Wilkinson put in.

I think not. There is no great point to throwing £Millions in the wrong place just to make an individual happy. We should take every penny of philanthropy we can but SL places should not be open to being playthings, and SL clubs should grow the game, not puffed up ego's.

Not sure what you are getting at. Is it ok for some clubs to have rich backers but not others. So Wigan don't have a rich backer? Without one they would not be a big club. They are not a big city like Leeds.

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Not sure what you are getting at. Is it ok for some clubs to have rich backers but not others. So Wigan don't have a rich backer? Without one they would not be a big club. They are not a big city like Leeds.

 

Wigan have a rich backer, but how much does he 'loan' to the club? Very little......also it doesn't matter the size of the area, its the size of the support from fans and sponsors......................

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Wigan have a rich backer, but how much does he 'loan' to the club? Very little......also it doesn't matter the size of the area, its the size of the support from fans and sponsors......................

 

How do you define a sponsor, does it have to be a corporate organization, or could it be just a individual, or maybe a very big collection of unnamed individuals lets say donating something like £500K. 

"If Rugby League had never been Invented, today we would only have Rugby League"

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That's an excellent to the point reply, but doesn't it (again) depend on wether the money is against any assets i.e. the ground/land?? If that is the final return ithen that is to the long term detriment of the club.

 

Less and less clubs seem to have assets of this kind. The next question is what return is there for the game with this philanthropy? If the Philanthropist pays for five thousand empty seats in the stadium and outbids clubs who develop pro players for their services then he is building a house of cards.

 

That is then to the detriment of clubs aiming to invest in and develop the games professional player pool. If Ken Davey can't be bothered with an academy as is alleged and buys Bradfords best youngsters why should Bradford bother to develop them in the first place.

 

Take all this to it's extreme. There are those on here who support the idea of mega rich men suddenly appearing to elevate Leigh above Wigan, Keighley above Bradford. Fev above Wakey/Cas, etc.

 

What is the best situation for the game? The 12 biggest clubs using Superleague to grow the playing roster and the paying crowds??

 

Or the 12 smallest clubs propped up by a philanthropic £4Million a year until the owner gets bored, runs into business problems or dies.

 

Can we really afford Messrs Davey and Koucash to prop up essentially small clubs, whilst bigger clubs like Wakefield and Bradford flounder for want of charity?? Remember if Koucash had not stepped in Salford would be no more for all the tens of £Millions Wilkinson put in.

 

I think not. There is no great point to throwing £Millions in the wrong place just to make an individual happy. We should take every penny of philanthropy we can but SL places should not be open to being playthings, and SL clubs should grow the game, not puffed up ego's.

 

All very laudable BUT how many of these clubs are not supported by philanthropic owner/investors. ? Maybe 4. The reality is we have no options but to rely on the Davy and Khoukash segment of the game.

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Wigan have a rich backer, but how much does he 'loan' to the club? Very little......also it doesn't matter the size of the area, its the size of the support from fans and sponsors......................

 

I don't know how much he loans to the club, But i agree with what you say, It's about how you run the club, and he quite obviously knows how to do it, Leeds the same, and Warrington are going that way, as well as Saints.

 

These are the clubs we should be using as a benchmark, they have kept up the standards in the same markets as everyone else, So what do the RFL do they change the system in the hope it will create more Wigans. It's not the systems It's the people.

 

I hope Fev's Man comes through and they have a lot of success,  If they do it will be because of his money or business sense, He can't play on the field but he can create all the right conditions to breed success.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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The deck is more stacked in favour of the bottom four SL clubs who will fall into the middle 8. They will be playing with a full battle hardened SL squad on SL salary cap against teams who have played a championship season against such powers as Rochdale, Keighley and Crusaders on a much smaller budget although it is going to be sweetened a bit but not enough.

 

Given these circumstances it is highly unlikely that a Championship team will able to mount a credible challenge for one of the promotion spots and I think it will be rare when there is a promotion from this group.

 

A 2 x 12, straight p and r would have, subject to standards being met, guaranteed promotion.

 

I also would much rather have 2x12 and the rest of your post more or less agrees with mine, I like you can see the same clubs going up and down every season, while the Elite at the top has the chance to shrink.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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Apologies if this has already been dealt with previously, but I do have a life!

 

What is going to happen with regards to competition sponsorship once we get to the 3*8 part of the season. I presume Top 8 will be FU Playoff Series, and bottom 8 will be Kingstone Press Playoff Series, but what about the middle tier? 

 

Don't suppose for a minute it will be the FUKingstonePressSuperleagueChampionshipRelegation/PromotionPlayoffSeries so any ideas anyone?

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Apologies if this has already been dealt with previously, but I do have a life!

 

What is going to happen with regards to competition sponsorship once we get to the 3*8 part of the season. I presume Top 8 will be FU Playoff Series, and bottom 8 will be Kingstone Press Playoff Series, but what about the middle tier? 

 

Don't suppose for a minute it will be the FUKingstonePressSuperleagueChampionshipRelegation/PromotionPlayoffSeries so any ideas anyone?

 

Don't know about sponsorship but the names are:

 

1st 8: Super League

2nd 8: Super League Qualifying

3rd 8: Championship Shield

Bottom bit no one notices: Championship 1

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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All very laudable BUT how many of these clubs are not supported by philanthropic owner/investors. ? Maybe 4. The reality is we have no options but to rely on the Davy and Khoukash segment of the game.

 

I think his point (and its a very good one) is that a rich man who comes in stabalises the club, makes it self sufficient and leaves it in a healthy state is whats needed....

 

Guys who come in spend millions on first team players and then walks away (sometimes with all the clubs assets) and leaves the club in a mess is not whats needed!! 

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All very laudable BUT how many of these clubs are not supported by philanthropic owner/investors. ? Maybe 4. The reality is we have no options but to rely on the Davy and Khoukash segment of the game.

 

Does it matter where the money comes from as long as a club is competitive and the standards stay up,

 

I would argue that there is a much better chance of a club getting nearer to self sufficiency from a strong position rather than a weak one.

 

I know nothing of K Davy's investment in Huddersfield, Other than i am glad he is there. Maybe his stake in the stadium covers his investments. I just see him as the owner of the club ( or business if you like ) If he pulls out ,the shop shuts, like any other.

 

Like you ( i suspect ) I was watching League long before Mr Davy came along, I won't stop now, although more and more will become on TV in the next few years I expect. I hope the crowds at Huddersfield keep growing, But as has been said many times ,Sadly It is a soccer town  first and foremost.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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With respect to the money argument, it's the closeness in quality of the players that will make the system work. 

 

SL is struggling to hold on to world class talent and even the more humble clubs in SL will struggle to attract even second rate antipodeans due to the exchange rates and the money awash down under.

 

The competition, for the foreseeable future will be based on your ability to build a squad not buy one. It puts the obvious candidates under a lot of pressure because they've relied too heavily on buying power rather than building their club.

 

I don't for instance, think that some of the recent pre-season games are a fluke, they'e an indication of these differences playing out.

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With respect to the money argument, it's the closeness in quality of the players that will make the system work. 

 

SL is struggling to hold on to world class talent and even the more humble clubs in SL will struggle to attract even second rate antipodeans due to the exchange rates and the money awash down under.

 

The competition, for the foreseeable future will be based on your ability to build a squad not buy one. It puts the obvious candidates under a lot of pressure because they've relied too heavily on buying power rather than building their club.

 

I don't for instance, think that some of the recent pre-season games are a fluke, they'e an indication of these differences playing out.

 

Good point, but the better run and wealthier clubs tend to produce the better young players, and more of them. ( some exceptions of course )

 

Some areas produce good youngsters but can't afford to keep them, which is where a money man would make all the difference, Wakey must come into this category

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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The deck is more stacked in favour of the bottom four SL clubs who will fall into the middle 8. They will be playing with a full battle hardened SL squad on SL salary cap against teams who have played a championship season against such powers as Rochdale, Keighley and Crusaders on a much smaller budget although it is going to be sweetened a bit but not enough.

 

Given these circumstances it is highly unlikely that a Championship team will able to mount a credible challenge for one of the promotion spots and I think it will be rare when there is a promotion from this group.

 

A 2 x 12, straight p and r would have, subject to standards being met, guaranteed promotion.

 

Not only is it stacked in favour of the bottom 4 SL clubs but it is also stacked in favour of the two SL clubs that will be relegated this season with parachute payments of £900k and £850k respectively.    The top Championship this season will get £550k and runner-up £500k.   After that from 3rd down it ranges between £250k and £160k depending on finishing position, so the two relegated clubs have a more favourable chance of being in the mix in the middle group than the Championship clubs.

 

I also predict that if one of the two relegated SL clubs replaces one of the bottom four SL teams at the end of the 2015 season we will be fed how good the system is and how it shows that a Championship club can achieve promotion and so on.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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I also would much rather have 2x12 and the rest of your post more or less agrees with mine, I like you can see the same clubs going up and down every season, while the Elite at the top has the chance to shrink.

You need to map out in your mind the likely reality of 3 years down the line if the funding that was mentioned is a reality

You will have 4 current championship clubs who will have been running FT for three years with the two relegated SL clubs from 2014, you then have 18 existing FT clubs add in a Toulouse and another and you have a ready made two FT tens to have P&R within, you introduce a 3 year franchise with a view to getting two twelves and hey presto you have a plan to expand the game encompassing P&R from a FT environment

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Does it matter where the money comes from as long as a club is competitive and the standards stay up,

 

I would argue that there is a much better chance of a club getting nearer to self sufficiency from a strong position rather than a weak one.

 

I know nothing of K Davy's investment in Huddersfield, Other than i am glad he is there. Maybe his stake in the stadium covers his investments. I just see him as the owner of the club ( or business if you like ) If he pulls out ,the shop shuts, like any other.

 

Like you ( i suspect ) I was watching League long before Mr Davy came along, I won't stop now, although more and more will become on TV in the next few years I expect. I hope the crowds at Huddersfield keep growing, But as has been said many times ,Sadly It is a soccer town  first and foremost.

Your last sentence could apply to all towns or cities, so to me is too simplistic to understand why low attendances.  

 

Even if you look from a purely football perspective the average crowds is around 15000, yep way more than rugby league but still hardly suggests massive interest in attending football match.

 

Of course depends if looking from purely the towns population  (almost 150,000)or the wider Kirkless (almost 500,000). I assume should be looking at wider Kirklee's as I would imagine that should be the target market.

 

Thus can't be as simple as saying its a football town.  Where is most entertainment spend in Huddersfield/kirklees or is the demographics such that only minimal available for spending and so no attendance but lots of interest.

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Good point, but the better run and wealthier clubs tend to produce the better young players, and more of them. ( some exceptions of course )

 

Some areas produce good youngsters but can't afford to keep them, which is where a money man would make all the difference, Wakey must come into this category

 

Wakefield now there's a club who have a great opportunity, sadly they tend to ignore the kids they work with.

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