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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Winston may have said that, But who would you say is the stronger Country today. England or Germany.

 

Union may not have wrung Leagues neck yet , It just needs to hang about, League regularly shoots it's self in the foot, and occasionally tries to commit Suicide.

 

Union is played in Scotland, Ireland , Wales, most of England and just about every other country in the known world, They do have problems with money true ,But it seems to be about how to share out a masive amount of it, As opposed to League squabling over a small amount. I wish it were the other way round.

 

Your right about our World Cup , It was great and i hope it has inspired more TV coverage and more money.

 

Much as i dislike Union You have to admitt they have got themselves a slice of the cake, that makes league's look a bit sad. If viewing firures are as good or better for League, Why do they get so much more money than we do, ?  And why in comparison are we treated as second class by just about everyone ?, Could it possibly be that they have the right people in place to make sure they stay in the forefront.

 

Check todays news. Maybe the pendulum is swinging in our direction.

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how would anyone give you objective criteria for something that can only be judged subjectively?

 

Time the ball's in play is objective.  Fitness can be measured.  Just a couple of examples.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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I didn't, they hit the buffers financially at a time when they had rising crowds of over 6,000 on an anticipation of getting the quality stadium the area needed. The new Chairman saved the club and rallied the fans to further crowd improvements to an average of 8,172, not bad when the club only sneaked into eighth place.

 

They were the eighth best supported club in Superleague 2012, and anyone who knows what effect a new stadium has on Superleague clubs in big traditional areas like Warrington and Hull knows they add thousands to the gate.

 

You need to look at how big the City is compared to small places like Castleford and Featherstone, do you want me to do the figures? I noted when Wakefield got 11,000 in for a relegation decider just what support there is out there if the club can get the ground and the finances.

 

Did you see last season they had a 10,000 crowd for Leeds in a re-arranged late  season game and remained the eighth best supported club in Superleague despite sever financial problems and dropping into the bottom four??

 

Would you have called Hull a "small club" in 1998 when they finished in the same place as Wakefield last year on much smaller crowds of 5,741. How about Warrington were they a "small club" that same year when they finished just under Hull on 4,897 ??

 

Superleague is a business yet it restructures as a rich mans lottery. Small clubs like Fartown, Salford and Featherstone are set to fly whilst clubs like Wakefield and Bradford are set to fall, True businesses look for the best investments and back them.

 

Would you doubt that with a new ground the eighth biggest RL club in Europe could not kick on and become the giant it once was, would you doubt that if that club had full access to the second biggest Junior set up in Europe - Wakefield MDC - they wouldn't be able to be as big as Leeds and Wigan?

 

If Wakefield are small the lord help the smaller than smalls......

 

What about when they were in the 2nd division on sub 2,000 crowds and barely sneaked promotion by very narrowly beating Fev in the grand final and the avoided relegation on the last day of the season for about four years in a row. Were they a big club then?

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I dislike Union as much as you do, In fact i hate it for what it has done to League in the past. That does not stop me from seeing what's real, Rugby league is played in London as is Union, Which is the bigger sport in London.

 

The same is true World wide, If you carn't accept that, so be it.

 

It's a close call. Both codes have only one top level club in London with Harlequins being more successful than the Broncos

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That's more like it!!

 

Anyway I picked out your sentence "when the boot was on the other foot, those clubs wasted no time in sticking it in". For me that says it all in that in your region (and others like Calder and Hull) where we see clubs sticking the boot into each other depending who is top dog and taking scarce resources to boost themselves at the expense of others.

 

Another May gem is "The Giants first choice 17 has 4 Huddersfield Academy products in it".

 

Steve, I don't know when Ken Davey seriously came on board to make Huddersfield a true Supeleague club, I would guess 2002 when the club were unbeaten on promotion from CC1 before 2,600 fans.

 

That's over TEN years ago and Ken has spent how many millions to develop 4 Huddersfield lads into professionals and find another 3,800 fans. Truly appalling stats that I expect to be even worse at Salford where there's even less junior clubs to develop players from and even more apathy for watching the club.

 

My point is a simple one and is not having a go at anyone. I don't think Superleague can afford to allow multi-millionaires to dictate their small clubs should be in Superleague, using their money to put the boot into bigger more resourceful clubs to the overall detriment of the flagship competition.

 

Bradford brought crowds of over 20,000 to Superleague and although they started late, they developed an effective academy that brought through talent in number other clubs are now picking off as they stick the boot in the Bulls.

 

Superleague will never grow whilst it continues this sort of nonsense.....

 

Best Tell KD to B****** off then , That will do Bradford and Wakey a power of good, Not to mention Huddersfield.

 

While we are at it the Dr as well, Who cares about Salford.

 

" Super league will never grow whilst it continues this sort of nonsense"

 

It sure as H** won't grow without Money, If we get rid of these money men, How do you see that helping to Deliver the Sky contract ?

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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I accept everything you say about the spread of League World wide. I think you know my point was about the level of the two games, in Probably every country in the world other than Oz, One or two minor exceptions.

 

The days when League would sign good union players have been reversed , It is them signing our best players now, ( something that needs to stop ) How many top Aussie Union players now cross to League ,as opposed to League players going over to Union. Look at this weekends Nat papers and see who's getting full page spreads ,as opposed to a 2" in a coloumn somewhere.

 

Unpleasant as i find it I don't think Union needs to look over their shoulder at us. Where are A Farrell and S Edwards and the like these days, Our games top players , coaching the opposition, and who can blame them , they have famillies like everyone else.

 

Much as i dislike whoever is running that game , I wish we had some just like them.

 

The top Aussie RU players are all ex RL players. They have no RU produced players who could get into the NRL on merit. England RU are in the same boat.

 

RU has some top people running their game no doubt but recent developments in RL from the WC to the new Sky TV deal suggest that we have some half decent administrators ourselves.

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Time the ball's in play is objective.  Fitness can be measured.  Just a couple of examples.

Sure, you can measure those and other things, but whether more time with the ball in play or better fitness mean a sport is better than another sport is subjective.

NFL only has the ball in play for 11 minutes during a 3 hour game and their players are less fit yet it's the most popular sport in the US.

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Time the ball's in play is objective.  Fitness can be measured.  Just a couple of examples.

 

Scrums in Union were becoming like they got in League, Union sorted it to a degree, League made it into a joke.

 

In Union Forwards are still Forwards and Backs are backs, In League there is less and less difference.

 

In Union there are more phaises to the game, eg. there is a place for very tall players to catch the ball at Lineouts.

 

In Union S Halves can throw the ball and end with a spectacular dive.

 

In Union players can roll about in a heap , and get up to " who knows what "

 

In League players can roll about if they want, But they generally would rather Fight.

 

In Union they have refferees, In League they have something else.

 

In union they have 10.000 rules, In League they have a new set most years.

 

In Union they have informed comentaries, In League they have Laurel and Hardy, with C Chaplin as back up.

 

In Union they wear posh clothers and eat Stawberry's in Twickers car park, In League they wear Flat caps, Race whippets and fancy pigeons.

 

In Union they clap and cheer,  In League they Shout FORWARD and Ger em onside.

 

Other than that pretty similar, But i know which one i like.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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What about when they were in the 2nd division on sub 2,000 crowds and barely sneaked promotion by very narrowly beating Fev in the grand final and the avoided relegation on the last day of the season for about four years in a row. Were they a big club then?

Barely sneaked promotion? We won the league and the grand final, as for avoiding relegation that's the excitement that this new league structure is all about isn't it.
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Best Tell KD to B****** off then , That will do Bradford and Wakey a power of good, Not to mention Huddersfield.

 

While we are at it the Dr as well, Who cares about Salford.

 

" Super league will never grow whilst it continues this sort of nonsense"

 

It sure as H** won't grow without Money, If we get rid of these money men, How do you see that helping to Deliver the Sky contract ?

 

I would tell them to be off if all they do is sit back and replace crowds and player growth with money.

 

Why bother with an academy or local junior clubs - just buy up pro-players grown by more industrious clubs, why bother opening any turnstiles? Who needs fans when you can just pay for the empty seats?

 

And yes it would do Bradford a power of good if Ken was off. They may get their academy on track again and keep the excellent players they have had to sell, they may get crowds back up to 15,000.

 

Whilst you may think chucking a £Million or so at a club every year for 10 years is investment, it isn't if the level of quality local players doesn't go up or if the crowds don't go up.

 

On that model we could have a Superleague consisting of the bottom 12 clubs in the RFL, all financially sound because tens of £Millions is chucked into every club. My simple point is invest in the clubs who can provide the best returns. I bet that's what you do when you invest your money?

Edited by The Parksider
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I would tell them to be off if all they do is sit back and replace crowds and player growth with money.

 

Why bother with an academy or local junior clubs - just buy up pro-players grown by more industrious clubs, why bother opening any turnstiles? Who needs fans when you can just pay for the empty seats?

 

And yes it would do Bradford a power of good if Ken was off. They may get their academy on track again and keep the excellent players they have had to sell, they may get crowds back up to 15,000.

 

Whilst you may think chucking a £Million or so at a club every year for 10 years is investment, it isn't if the level of quality local players doesn't go up or if the crowds don't go up.

 

On that model we could have a Superleague consisting of the bottom 12 clubs in the RFL, all financially sound because tens of £Millions is chucked into every club. My simple point is invest in the clubs who can provide the best returns. I bet that's what you do when you invest your money?

So what about clubs like Warrington, I don't think they are particularly Famous for their production line, They are still a good club that is growing, and benefiting from a wealthy owner, They get their players from somewhere, and good luck to them.

 

So if KD cleared off it would be all Wine and Roses at Bradford, They took enough players from other clubs, and a lot of fans from Fartown, But that's life , that's the real world, It wasn't KDs fault the bought Harris was it, Or was it? And apart from swapping players with Wakey fairly regularly, most of Fartowns players have come from Wigan. That doesn't bother me at all, and it doesn't seem to bother Wigan.

 

Remember Yorkshire Cricket used to insist that players had to be Yorkshire born, I wonder why they packed that in.

 

I don't say chucking Millions at a club is ideal, But It's better than the club disappearing.

 

If a Millionaire came and bought Hunslet tomorrow, You wouldn't want him because it would be bad for the health of Leeds Rhino's,  Yeah makes sense.

 

So you don't care that clubs should be financially sound, wherever they are in the League, I think It's better than going bust every few years, we have lots of experience or that , It's great for the game.

 

So let me think about the investment bit. A club who play in a ground owned by the council and leased by the RFL That costs an absolute fortune just to keep open, who despite being able to pull crowds of 20.000 still went bust,  Or a rugby and Football club that gave me a 60% share of a £30 million stadium, I've thought about it, for 5 seconds.  That's why he's a millionaire and you and me are keyboard tappers.

 

No offense by the way to any Bradford fans, I wish you good luck, and i fully expect you to be back.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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Barely sneaked promotion? We won the league and the grand final, as for avoiding relegation that's the excitement that this new league structure is all about isn't it.

 

If I remember rightly, Featherstone had the grand final all but won when Trinity staged a miraculous comeback. That's what I meant by sneaked. I have admiration for your club. The point I was making was that a poster was putting them in the "big" club column and these events in the 2nd div and limping along at the bottom end of SL do not support that viewpoint.

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If I remember rightly, Featherstone had the grand final all but won when Trinity staged a miraculous comeback. That's what I meant by sneaked. I have admiration for your club. The point I was making was that a poster was putting them in the "big" club column and these events in the 2nd div and limping along at the bottom end of SL do not support that viewpoint.

big clubs always find a way!

I expect wakey to be lining up in SL come 2015!

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The new structure is good, the investment is good. Introspection and waffling is Canute-esque.

 

God luck with the miserableness,

 

Well let's see how it pans out before you announce it IS a good structure.

 

Your continuous mantra that the change has come so that's that, is ostriches head in the sand-esque.

 

There are two factions in SL, and one still has the power to ensure the new structure isn't that "good" through funding decisions,  alternatively in return for power they may return to another structure they actually support, in time.

 

Your Canute analogy IS simply wrong and your attempt to paint those who want to debate the structure as "miserable" does you no favours.

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1. So what about clubs like Warrington, I don't think they are particularly Famous for their production line, They are still a good club that is growing, and benefiting from a wealthy owner, They get their players from somewhere, and good luck to them.

 

2. So if KD cleared off it would be all Wine and Roses at Bradford,

 

3. If a Millionaire came and bought Hunslet tomorrow, You wouldn't want him because it would be bad for the health of Leeds Rhino's,  Yeah makes sense.

 

4. So you don't care that clubs should be financially sound

 

 

 

1. Warrington have a history of poor player development, but they now have a good academy and are improving, and they turn 10,000 crowds in a modern stadia. They beat Fartown on both these important points, fans and player development.

 

2. KD can do what he wants, but you tell me what would be left if he did clear off?? Don't you remember what was left at Salford when Mr. Wilkinson cleared off. The best players cleared off and many fans cleared off.

 

3. No I would not want a millionaire at Hunslet tell me what the point would be?? He would not build us a ground, he could not spend any more than the cap and would not be able to attract young players.

 

Perhaps think about how limited untold riches is when your in a game of very limited resources and financial caps?

 

4. Salford again. Nobody is financially sound simply from sugar daddies, that's where you have it wrong.

 

Financial soundness comes from a big fanbase and a great local junior scene/academy  that produces players.

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Well let's see how it pans out before you announce it IS a good structure.

 

Your continuous mantra that the change has come so that's that, is ostriches head in the sand-esque.

 

There are two factions in SL, and one still has the power to ensure the new structure isn't that "good" through funding decisions,  alternatively in return for power they may return to another structure they actually support, in time.

 

Your Canute analogy IS simply wrong and your attempt to paint those who want to debate the structure as "miserable" does you no favours.

 

Never a truer word.  Change has come, change will no doubt come again and not be long about it.

 

We just can't make our minds up, can we ?

 

I'm cool with the new format.  If it hadn't been voted in this year, there'd've been a constant whining noise in the background until we tried it and showed it to be the complete tosh that it is.

Edited by Griff

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Who will be the stake holders in SLE?

 

Will it be the same 14 clubs that we have now,or will it just be the 12 club who are left after two are relegated at the end of this season?

 

Or will all clubs become stake holders?

 

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We will probably find out after the meeting on the 6th (this Thursday coming).

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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