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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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"WILL" yes Terry it will be fascinating in the coming weeks the fans response. Get your book of excuses ready mate!!

I don't go for excuses Parky, gets you nowhere. Licensing failed spectacularly as the 'dinosaurs' predicted and if the new 2015 system fails as the 'nouveau dinosaurs' predict then I'd expect the RFL to try something else.

Edited by Terry Mullaney

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I'm pretty certain Tevita Vaikona was/is a Tongan. Plus even if it was 3 Kiwis (of the apocalypse), that's hardly overwhelming.

 

You are very probably right and the truth is i am not a stats man.

 

I don't think Bradford have been any better of worse than any other club for importing players, And i don't care anyway. I just want to watch the game as good as it can be, and Bradford were very good to watch.

 

I don't believe for one minute that they will not survive and I'll be happy about that, I do think they will have a struggle with Odsal, and for that reason i don't think they will get to the level say of Wigan and Leeds as a club.

 

That doesn't mean they can't be top on the field again. The point i was trying to make at the time was, That teams who can't get top crowds, are not banned from winning things.

 

If MK is prepared to put in enough money Salford could win as much as anybody, whether they have a crowd or not, So could Fev, So could the Giants, HKR anybody. If you have enough money you can get along with smaller crowds. If or when the Money men stop for whatever reason, then the club will more than likely fold, But  they may well have had a great 10 years by then and been a terrific team to watch. I don't see how stopping them being there in the first place helps League at all.

 

Would it have been better to have never had those 10 years because they needed money men to subsidize them, not for me. Nobody can take Bradfords great years away, however it all ended.

 

I know this has gone a bit off your post, sorry about that but it is by way of trying to explain why i may have been seen to be attacking the Bulls,  I want the Bulls to survive, and i am pretty sure they will. I think they will have a far better time if they can depart Odsal, but these things are easier said than done, Either way i wish them well.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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No, they are in the exciting new world of P & R. I am told licensing caused the decline of Championship clubs (even though the facts are they declined more under P & R) so now we have P & R fans will flock back at both levels.

We only have relegation this season Parky. The effect, or not, on attendances won't be truly evident until 2015, although I do expect Rovers attendances to increase considerably yet again this year

Edited by Terry Mullaney

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Free Showreel DVD On Request

http://www.picturehouseweddingfilms.co.uk/

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We only have relegation this season Parky. The effect, or not, on attendances won't be truly evident until 2015, although I do expect Rovers attendances to increase considerably yet again this year

 

I thought you were getting your excuses out early there Terry!!

 

Anyway you've put your neck on the block 2403 to beat...............

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Terry, the bad news is when Featherstone Rovers were breaking 4,000 competing in the top division Leeds were breaking 12,000. It's not rocket science is it - the bigger the population to draw from the bigger the crowds can be and actually were.

Bet you never wished you asked that question Terry?

Parky - I dont recall Leeds getting anywhere near averages of 12k in between the mid 70s and 1990. Can you clarify which seasons in that period where Leeds got more than 12k averages?

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Parky - I dont recall Leeds getting anywhere near averages of 12k in between the mid 70s and 1990. Can you clarify which seasons in that period where Leeds got more than 12k averages?

 

Parky - I dont recall Leeds getting anywhere near averages of 12k in between the mid 70s and 1990. Can you clarify which seasons in that period where Leeds got more than 12k averages?

He might not but I can:

88/89 - 12060.

89/90 - 12251.

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Terry, the bad news is when Featherstone Rovers were breaking 4,000 competing in the top division Leeds were breaking 12,000.  It's not rocket science is it - the bigger the population to draw from the bigger the crowds can be and actually were.

 

Bet you never wished you asked that question Terry?

 

London, Sheffield, Manchester urban area do not support that pronouncement although it would generally hold true, variables change the equation.

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They attracted poor crowds for a City club but with a large catchment area have got up to 8,000 as an average and have put a number of 10,000 crowds in Belle Vue including an 11,000 crowd me and Agbrigg were in.

 

So I've seen all the Wakefield support with my own eyes.

 

Rovers are based in a small town so yes we have a really good idea what their crowds will be. Try looking at small town Widnes or Leigh for likely SL crowds. Ponte are seemingly split between Cas and Rovers, the danger being Rovers 18 years in the championship may have depleted that support in Ponte.

 

Rovers crowds for the big cup games were poor as well and prompted a whole thread on here discussing likely Rovers SL crowds. It started with the idea thousands would flock down from Barnsley to watch Fev, but in time we tended to have a concensus of opinion that about 5,000 average would be a very good estimate IF they competed.

 

The trick is to declare that nobody can have any idea what crowds Rovers would get which is ludicrous and just an attempt to shut down a reality you don't like. We know they wont get nobody turning up, and they won't average 10,000 so let's split the difference?

 

So to see if Fev can hack it or not, the other variables have to be added such as, stadium ownership and revenue, investor contributions, club lotteries, marketing inititiatives. 

 

As we can see from the Bradford scenario, crowds alone are not the barometer by which to measure success.

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Not at that time. The days when a locally produced team could all stay at the semi pro club.

 

The dice will be loaded against them this time Daz big time.

 

If nahaboo can pump £2,000,000 a year in for 12 years and if Wakefield and Cas collapse you may win the hubcap like Fartown.

 

Looking at Fridays result, the Huddersfield model looks more likely to win the whole enchilada than the self sustaining Wigan operation. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

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He might not but I can:

88/89 - 12060.

89/90 - 12251.

Whilst you are being so helpful, why not show the averages from 1975 to 1988 as well? I think we all know that Leeds were getting around 6k for a large portion of that period and this only started increasing towards the back end of the 80s with continued success

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Whilst you are being so helpful, why not show the averages from 1975 to 1988 as well? I think we all know that Leeds were getting around 6k for a large portion of that period and this only started increasing towards the back end of the 80s with continued success

Write them yourself.  Getting into the habit of checking stats before asserting them would be a good habit.

 

The correct response would have been "Sorry, I got that wrong".

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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"We could be almost as big as Wakey" is not that strong an argument in the context of what Parksider is discussing.

Prior to Wakey getting into SL through the back door in '98, Fev were much bigger than Wakey for the 25 years since Neil Fox moved on. All the evidence suggests they would be much bigger again, if given the chance.

Stop comparing them to the Big 6, until the Big 6 turns into the Big 12! And if you know when that will happen, I hope you live to see it. I don't think I will!

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Prior to Wakey getting into SL through the back door in '98, Fev were much bigger than Wakey for the 25 years since Neil Fox moved on. All the evidence suggests they would be much bigger again, if given the chance.

Stop comparing them to the Big 6, until the Big 6 turns into the Big 12! And if you know when that will happen, I hope you live to see it. I don't think I will!

its took 20 years to go from big 1 to big 6! So another 20 to get to big 12?

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its took 20 years to go from big 1 to big 6! So another 20 to get to big 12?

I don't think the Big 6 will allow it to happen? They could have turned London into a success story by letting them have bigger slice of the Sky money and a bigger salary cap. New clubs outside the heartlands will never be a success, unless they can compete at the very top and win trophies. If that happens, some clubs in the current Top 6 will fall away and we'll be back where we started; an elite group and the rest making up the numbers.

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I don't think the Big 6 will allow it to happen? They could have turned London into a success story by letting them have bigger slice of the Sky money and a bigger salary cap. New clubs outside the heartlands will never be a success, unless they can compete at the very top and win trophies. If that happens, some clubs in the current Top 6 will fall away and we'll be back where we started; an elite group and the rest making up the numbers.

saints haven't faded away? Or hull?

If hull kr started winning things then maybe?

I think we are about to see 2 more'regulars' joining the top 6 in the play offs!!

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Whilst you are being so helpful, why not show the averages from 1975 to 1988 as well? I think we all know that Leeds were getting around 6k for a large portion of that period and this only started increasing towards the back end of the 80s with continued success

 

Why not show the averages back to 1947 you may find the gap between Leeds and Fev crowds even bigger than today.

 

OR alternatively just pick the biggest ever Featherstone crowd of 17,531

 

Then pick the smallest ever Leeds crowd, maybe 3,000 for Workington in the cup a few years back.

 

And there you have it, Featherstone Rovers in Superleague on their ability to outdo Leeds crowds wise. Leigh once got 31,000 for a game.

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I don't think the Big 6 will allow it to happen? They could have turned London into a success story by letting them have bigger slice of the Sky money and a bigger salary cap. New clubs outside the heartlands will never be a success, unless they can compete at the very top and win trophies. If that happens, some clubs in the current Top 6 will fall away and we'll be back where we started; an elite group and the rest making up the numbers.

 

Interesting post Steve,

 

I think the salary cap was introduced to try to stop the top clubs eating the bottom clubs in SL but as Salford, London and Wakeys bones were picked clean recently it didn't work.

 

The top clubs want to remain so but also want Superleague to flourish as they are in it. What comes first is themselves and you can't blame them for that.Gary Hetherington gave a nod to the need for other clubs to win trphies rather than Leeds after they won SL for an umpteenth time the other year.

 

The first thing they have done is cut to 12 for Superleague to try to raise the competitiveness, but dumping two carcasses they picked clean would hardly put much more meat on the bones for the rest of them, but as we have now seen they smelt a bigger SKY deal in the offing.

 

That deal may help to enable 12 clubs to all pay full cap, so poor Marwan is stuffed in this communist league. Equal misery for all.

 

However the top clubs have the academies that work, and the lure of trophies and associated glory that means players do not always accept the biggest deal if that means having to work hard to rescue clubs from the drop.

 

Your analysis is the reason why I see the only possible way out is to go for a ten club superleague as a number of esteemed commentators have suggested. At that level there's a chance more clubs can grow and reach the same ceiling unless it's pitched higher again.

 

But growth remains hampered by clubs desire? or lack of bottle? in terms of making the obvious radical choices to organise themselves such that they can take on the Leeds, Wires and Saints. As I've outlined many times there's the fans, players and money to have strong clubs in Hull, Calder and Bradford way but these places don't work together to achieve this, they are divided and they are therefore regularly conquered.

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its getting a bit silly now, FEV will never again be as big as Leeds crowd wise unless Leeds shut the doors.

 

The key is to get 12 big clubs, but to do that you need 20 clubs as the lower echelons of the 12 must be challenged from below to maintain a competitive 12 and remove the fatality of p&r.

I was hopeful the funding could provide for at least 6 FT clubs in the second tier from 2015, and that in 3 years we would have a two tens structure of FT clubs incl 2 more French

We didn't get the funding but we have a chink of light in so far as the top 2 in this years championship will receive funding to move to a FT structure for 2015, the problem being you will then have 4 FT clubs from 12 unless a money man comes in at other clubs, and 4 places to play for to get in with a shout of promotion. It will be tough but better than the nothing we have had.

For the life of me I cannot understand how this new deal is being carved up financially to equate to £200m though :help:

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parksider saying fev should be judged on crowds in the coming weeks when the last I knew we were still in the championship and you can't really compare our crowds to super league

 

Ah right - gotcha.

 

You mean "Why ? Are Fev starting the season in Superleague ?", as opposed to "Why are Fev starting the season in $uperleague ?"

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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