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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

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.....here we go again...round and round and round

 

You've clearly got no argument against this.

 

The OP has it bang on and it's worth him saying it again as long as people live in a dreamland that little clubs with no real junior game or fanbase will one day be Superleague clubs.

 

The OP is at a small club himself striving to be big and knows the score bang on so it's worth him saying it. There will not be lines of kids from outside the north queuing up to add to the player pool. Who we do have after 17 years of a free gangway are mainly remnants of failed expansion clubs.

 

The OP was bang on again when he lamented Widnes have four Junior RL clubs and they need to get the swathes of the Halton district who don't have RL in their hearts playing. Yet the game has given the opportunity to clubs like Leigh and Fev with less junior clubs than Widnes and far less fans than Widnes the chance to be superleague clubs.

 

Hans christian Anderson or the Brothers Grimm could not have done a better job.

 

The other day someone said Parky, why do you repeat your posts and thoughts ad nauseum. The reason I do is so many people repeat their thoughts that just around the corner crowds are going to boom, juniors are about to flock to the game, the small clubs will become large clubs and the world will wake up and realise RL is the game.

 

Why do so many of us do this?? Is it because we have good analytical brains and realise that if we want the old world of RL to survive, wishful thinking is actually the best plan??.

 

If you really really want to stop this "here we go again round and round" nonsense then you should encourage people to face some very very hard facts about Rugby League.

 

That's what business has to do to make the right decisions and what deeply saddens me is that the RFL clearly live in a KPMG inspired dreamland. The lot of them should be locked in a room to watch repeat after repeat of Wakefield.v.Bradford and the 4,000 fans viewing on from the sides of the dump until they resign.

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It may well become a 12 team SL but with the re-structure to eight clubs with four bottom clubs playing the top four from the Championship it could become effectively an eight team SL.

Those eight clubs could pull away in ability, crowds, players signings and balance sheets from their other SL counterparts. This may make it almost impossible for the others to catch up.

 

That's my analysis Ted. Not often I agree with you and one wonders why this is happening.

 

For me it's a precursor to getting all the daft ideas that P & R is the future, small clubs will become big clubs, and big crowds will swell the games coffers out of everyone's system.

 

Then after 20 years wasted years of mucking about the game can plan something radical, to finally drag us out of the past.

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You've clearly got no argument against this.

 

The OP has it bang on and it's worth him saying it again as long as people live in a dreamland that little clubs with no real junior game or fanbase will one day be Superleague clubs.

 

The OP is at a small club himself striving to be big and knows the score bang on so it's worth him saying it. There will not be lines of kids from outside the north queuing up to add to the player pool. Who we do have after 17 years of a free gangway are mainly remnants of failed expansion clubs.

 

The OP was bang on again when he lamented Widnes have four Junior RL clubs and they need to get the swathes of the Halton district who don't have RL in their hearts playing. Yet the game has given the opportunity to clubs like Leigh and Fev with less junior clubs than Widnes and far less fans than Widnes the chance to be superleague clubs.

 

Hans christian Anderson or the Brothers Grimm could not have done a better job.

 

The other day someone said Parky, why do you repeat your posts and thoughts ad nauseum. The reason I do is so many people repeat their thoughts that just around the corner crowds are going to boom, juniors are about to flock to the game, the small clubs will become large clubs and the world will wake up and realise RL is the game.

 

Why do so many of us do this?? Is it because we have good analytical brains and realise that if we want the old world of RL to survive, wishful thinking is actually the best plan??.

 

If you really really want to stop this "here we go again round and round" nonsense then you should encourage people to face some very very hard facts about Rugby League.

 

That's what business has to do to make the right decisions and what deeply saddens me is that the RFL clearly live in a KPMG inspired dreamland. The lot of them should be locked in a room to watch repeat after repeat of Wakefield.v.Bradford and the 4,000 fans viewing on from the sides of the dump until they resign.

The hard facts are that there are only 8 or so "Super Clubs", the rest are no better than Fev, Fax, Leigh etc. It's not the fault of the Championship clubs. Will we ever get more than 8? Because I've a feeling that if one club steps up to the plate, another will fall into mediocrity.

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P+R and Licensing both have the same problem.

 

Not enough clubs are up to the required mark.

 

Changing the structure of the game won't alter that.


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Not enough clubs are up to the required mark.

 

 

 

Wasn't this said by the dinasaurs in 1995 ?

Edited by Jimmy B

Lets not forget, Featherstone Rovers is a RUGBY club.

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P+R and Licensing both have the same problem.

 

Not enough clubs are up to the required mark.

 

Changing the structure of the game won't alter that.

No it won't, but if you ring fence the "also-rans" of Super League you condemn the rest to a lifetime of obscurity, and areas that have been famous for producing talent will have fewer youngsters playing the game. We need to find a way of bringing more through the gates at all clubs, not just at the top.

That way, the player pool will grow.

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You've clearly got no argument against this.

 

The OP has it bang on and it's worth him saying it again as long as people live in a dreamland that little clubs with no real junior game or fanbase will one day be Superleague clubs.

 

The OP is at a small club himself striving to be big and knows the score bang on so it's worth him saying it. There will not be lines of kids from outside the north queuing up to add to the player pool. Who we do have after 17 years of a free gangway are mainly remnants of failed expansion clubs.

 

The OP was bang on again when he lamented Widnes have four Junior RL clubs and they need to get the swathes of the Halton district who don't have RL in their hearts playing. Yet the game has given the opportunity to clubs like Leigh and Fev with less junior clubs than Widnes and far less fans than Widnes the chance to be superleague clubs.

 

Hans christian Anderson or the Brothers Grimm could not have done a better job.

 

The other day someone said Parky, why do you repeat your posts and thoughts ad nauseum. The reason I do is so many people repeat their thoughts that just around the corner crowds are going to boom, juniors are about to flock to the game, the small clubs will become large clubs and the world will wake up and realise RL is the game.

 

Why do so many of us do this?? Is it because we have good analytical brains and realise that if we want the old world of RL to survive, wishful thinking is actually the best plan??.

 

If you really really want to stop this "here we go again round and round" nonsense then you should encourage people to face some very very hard facts about Rugby League.

 

That's what business has to do to make the right decisions and what deeply saddens me is that the RFL clearly live in a KPMG inspired dreamland. The lot of them should be locked in a room to watch repeat after repeat of Wakefield.v.Bradford and the 4,000 fans viewing on from the sides of the dump until they resign.

 

..now we have the thread merged my comment looks somewhat out of context. We didn't need a new thread, hence what I put so back off.

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No it won't, but if you ring fence the "also-rans" of Super League you condemn the rest to a lifetime of obscurity, and areas that have been famous for producing talent will have fewer youngsters playing the game. We need to find a way of bringing more through the gates at all clubs, not just at the top.

That way, the player pool will grow.

 

Pretty much all sports have an elite few who can win the title. The rest are also rans. The fact is though that these clubs have a right to compete with each other, not be segregated arbitrarily. In many, many examples, clubs focus on being the best at where they are at. At least with P&R this allows for limited ambitions to be realised. Just because the same club cannot win the title does not make it less worthy a cause to invest in or achieve.

 

To continually focus on a elite top 8 as an argument to put down ambition is boring. How many of us are considered in the elite in what we do? How many of us are achieving our potential? Surely the second measure is more valuable to our motivation and true worth than focussing on something beyond our reach. How many of us stop in bed because we can't be elite? It would be worthless to try if all investment fell to the feet of those considered elite, and not within reach of those who can better themselves.

 

This is why I find the argument over elite v underchiever or whatever you wish to call it, vacuous, disingenuous and frankly it bores the pectorials off me.

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The hard facts are that there are only 8 or so "Super Clubs", the rest are no better than Fev, Fax, Leigh etc. It's not the fault of the Championship clubs. Will we ever get more than 8? Because I've a feeling that if one club steps up to the plate, another will fall into mediocrity.

If the hard facts are that there are 8 super clubs then as a sport we should do something like this if we want to move forward.

Give say 10 approximately £2,250,000 each a season (£22.5 million), only allow one overseas player per squad to promote the opportunities for English players and the best youth in the country.

Overseas players are classed as anyone who has not been resident in the UK for the last 5 years, so even if you have a passport for the UK, your uncle was born in Scotland or your great grandmother grew up in the valley's etc etc etc you are classed as a quota player.

From that 10 teams you have a maximum of 10 overseas players in total, you play 18 league fixtures, plus playoff fixtures and have a cup comp, a rep comp series and a regular international schedule.

The door is shut, P&R never returns and everybody else plays in a Championship comp on equal financial terms and a part time basis!!!

That includes the French because in reality the European SL is hardly a reflection of a European contingent and a European interest!!!!

Wigan

Wire

Saints

Leeds

Huddersfield

Hull

Salford

The other 3 spots are up for grabs, but surely need to be based on the long term financial stability and backing a club has in place and it's fan base, ie the capability to realistically generate 10k home gates week in and week out.

Even if it means creating new clubs such as a Cas/ Wakey merger or turning Salford in to Greater Manchester (Salford,Swinton,Oldham) or just Humberside (FC/KR), Huddsfax is another!

Edited by LordCharles

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If the hard facts are that there are 8 super clubs then as a sport we should do something like this if we want to move forward.

Give say 10 approximately £2,250,000 each a season (£22.5 million), only allow one overseas player per squad to promote the opportunities for English players and the best youth in the country.

Overseas players are classed as anyone who has not been resident in the UK for the last 5 years, so even if you have a passport for the UK, your uncle was born in Scotland or your great grandmother grew up in the valley's etc etc etc you are classed as a quota player.

From that 10 teams you have a maximum of 10 overseas players in total, you play 18 league fixtures, plus playoff fixtures and have a cup comp, a rep comp series and a regular international schedule.

The door is shut, P&R never returns and everybody else plays in a Championship comp on equal financial terms and a part time basis!!!

That includes the French because in reality the European SL is hardly a reflection of a European contingent and a European interest!!!!

Wigan

Wire

Saints

Leeds

Huddersfield

Hull

Salford

The other 3 spots are up for grabs, but surely need to be based on the long term financial stability and backing a club has in place and it's fan base, ie the capability to realistically generate 10k home gates week in and week out.

Even if it means creating new clubs such as a Cas/ Wakey merger or turning Salford in to Greater Manchester (Salford,Swinton,Oldham) or just Humberside (FC/KR), Huddsfax is another!

That's just so ambitious. A whole sport of just 10 northern teams, ring fenced forever. That should really appeal to Sky who want to sell dishes throughout England. It should really expand the fan base to astronomical proportions and should produce a wide variety of interesting fixtures of wide geographical spread.

It should also encourage entrepreneurs to put their money into the game, the only question is where would they invest since there are only ten teams and they will already have their money men in place.

London will be gone, any chance of Wales or the midlands will be gone, France will be gone.

That is so forward looking and full of optimism for the games future, I don't know why we havn't done it years ago. A 10 team sport. What a great idea ? Small and irrelevant is the way to the future.

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If the hard facts are that there are 8 super clubs then as a sport we should do something like this if we want to move forward.

Give say 10 approximately £2,250,000 each a season (£22.5 million), only allow one overseas player per squad to promote the opportunities for English players and the best youth in the country.

Overseas players are classed as anyone who has not been resident in the UK for the last 5 years, so even if you have a passport for the UK, your uncle was born in Scotland or your great grandmother grew up in the valley's etc etc etc you are classed as a quota player.

r!

So if one of the burgesses or Tomkins wanted to return to SL after a couple of years in the NRL they count as an overseas player?.

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That's just so ambitious. A whole sport of just 10 northern teams, ring fenced forever. That should really appeal to Sky who want to sell dishes throughout England. It should really expand the fan base to astronomical proportions and should produce a wide variety of interesting fixtures of wide geographical spread.It should also encourage entrepreneurs to put their money into the game, the only question is where would they invest since there are only ten teams and they will already have their money men in place.London will be gone, any chance of Wales or the midlands will be gone, France will be gone.That is so forward looking and full of optimism for the games future, I don't know why we havn't done it years ago. A 10 team sport. What a great idea ? Small and irrelevant is the way to the future.

London are gone, Wales is gone, the midlands never started, France has been blocked.


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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London are gone, Wales is gone, the midlands never started, France has been blocked.

London are gone, Wales is gone, the midlands never started, France has been blocked.

Last time I looked there were two teams in London, two in Wales and one in France with plans in hand to give Toulouse a Championship place. There have been plans to give Coventry a CC1 place for a couple of years.

With p and r, sort of, scheduled to return, all these teams can theoretically make SL.

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P+R and Licensing both have the same problem.

 

Not enough clubs are up to the required mark.

 

Changing the structure of the game won't alter that.

 

That's as good a simple analysis as I've ever had.

 

If changing the structure of the game won't alter the clubs then isn't it obvious that the solution is to change the structure of the clubs?

 

All our clubs are continually trying to be what they were in 1995 only full time professional outfits.

 

As they stand so many can't get a crowd to sustain this (4,000 at Wakey, 5,000 at Cas, 5,000 at Widnes) so many can't develop players (couple of Wakey lads playing in SL as first picks, handful of Warrington and Salford/Manchester lads equally playing as first picks).

 

So what did Uncle Maurice propose???

 

Here we go again around and around..................

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If you ring fence the "also-rans" of Super League you condemn the rest to a lifetime of obscurity, and areas that have been famous for producing talent will have fewer youngsters playing the game. We need to find a way of bringing more through the gates at all clubs, not just at the top.

That way, the player pool will grow.

 

Your right IMVHO to warn against ring fencing failures.

 

But perhaps we should look at your "areas that have been famous for producing talent".......

 

Leeds

Calder

Bradhuddersfax

Hull

Wigan

Widnes

Manchester/Salford

St.Helens

Warrington

South of France

 

Why not ring fence a club for each of those areas then we will ensure that places that produce players and attract fans through the turnstiles are not "condemned to a lifetime of obscurity".

 

Totally logical stuff, but those who want to preserve all the small clubs of yesteryear, clubs who put off people attending their games, clubs who don't produce players but feed off clubs who do, will baulk at this and find an argument for preserving the status quo, i.e. throwing money at preserving the past rather than investing in the future.

Edited by The Parksider

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Pretty much all sports have an elite few who can win the title. The rest are also rans. The fact is though that these clubs have a right to compete with each other, not be segregated arbitrarily. In many, many examples, clubs focus on being the best at where they are at. At least with P&R this allows for limited ambitions to be realised. Just because the same club cannot win the title does not make it less worthy a cause to invest in or achieve.

 

Not sure I understand what your saying? I'm too busy looking at the ring fenced 16 club NRL Premiership.

 

16 clubs there to do a job and doing a blooming brilliant one at that.

 

Not sure the ambitions of Newtown Jets are relevant. Not sure if they have any? OK a couple of their fans may have "high hopes" and post them on forums, but I don't think IMVHO with respect that the tip of the tail should wag tie dog to repeat an embellished Padge quote.

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Sorry for being a dinosaur Parky. When I played all the best youngsters this side of the Pennines came from Fev, Cas, Hunslet and Shaw Cross, and that's where the likes of Leeds, Bradford and the Hull clubs recruited from. As far as Fev and Cas goes, soccer was rarely played in local schools and kids grew up steeped in the game. You couldn't walk around town or up Station Lane without bumbing into half a dozen RL internationals.

Of course, those were the bad old days when GB last won the world cup!  

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Your right IMVHO to warn against ring fencing failures.

 

But perhaps we should look at your "areas that have been famous for producing talent".......

 

Leeds

Calder

Bradhuddersfax

Hull

Wigan

Widnes

Manchester/Salford

St.Helens

Warrington

South of France

 

Why not ring fence a club for each of those areas then we will ensure that places that produce players and attract fans through the turnstiles are not "condemned to a lifetime of obscurity".

 

Totally logical stuff, but those who want to preserve all the small clubs of yesteryear, clubs who put off people attending their games, clubs who don't produce players but feed off clubs who do, will baulk at this and find an argument for preserving the status quo, i.e. throwing money at preserving the past rather than investing in the future.

Completely defeatist like an ostrich or a tortoise. In the face of risk, stick your head in the sand, pull back into your shell and retreat.

Forget the several players in SL from London, from Wales, from Cumbria, Batley, Dewsbury. Forget that there are teams in Cheltenham, Oxford, Hemel in the pro game finding new sources of players as we speak and forget the spread of the amateur game in the midlands, Coventry, Leicester, Nottingham, Telford and Derbyshire. Forget the thriving North East amateur scene.

Forget the renaissance at Leigh and Fev, Halifax and Crusaders. Forget that Castleford are top of the league and Dewsbury and Doncaster are in the top four. There are just no players to be found to have decent teams in anywhere but ring around the roses ring fenced nirvana land.

The system is producing players at various levels and SL players will eventually surface.

Forget that this game is a game for small to medium sized clubs. There are no soccer sized behemoths in our game. This is a game of medium sized at best and ambition, drive and energy can still get small to the top.

Long may it continue.

We need more Winston Churchills and fewer Neville Chamberlains in the face of danger from RU and other monsters. Those who dare win, I think I heard somewhere.

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Not sure I understand what your saying? I'm too busy looking at the ring fenced 16 club NRL Premiership.

 

16 clubs there to do a job and doing a blooming brilliant one at that.

 

Not sure the ambitions of Newtown Jets are relevant. Not sure if they have any? OK a couple of their fans may have "high hopes" and post them on forums, but I don't think IMVHO with respect that the tip of the tail should wag tie dog to repeat an embellished Padge quote.

If your hopes for SL were to be transported to the NRL, Brisbane and the Warriors and Canberra would be ditched to seek a slimmed down mini league compressed into Sydney.

There would be no room for a Perth team or the Melbourne Storm because those areas don't produce players. There would be no room for a second team in Brisbane because two team cities strangle and dilute the spectator base and thin the playing talent pool.

Fortunately for the game of Rugby League, your view does not prevail and the NRL is and has not been ring fenced and will expand and grow the game in the years to come.

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Sorry for being a dinosaur Parky. When I played all the best youngsters this side of the Pennines came from Fev, Cas, Hunslet and Shaw Cross, and that's where the likes of Leeds, Bradford and the Hull clubs recruited from. As far as Fev and Cas goes, soccer was rarely played in local schools and kids grew up steeped in the game. You couldn't walk around town or up Station Lane without bumbing into half a dozen RL internationals.

Of course, those were the bad old days when GB last won the world cup!  

 

Your not a dinosaur Steve. We need a club to capture all the best talent from Fev and Cas (and Wakey) to take on Leeds who now attract the best Hunslet lads along with the best at Leeds.

 

The best Dewsbury lads end up at Bradford or Leeds and again a strong Bradford matching Leeds and a strong Wakey area club competing for the very best in West Yorkshire would be great for the game.

 

There's no logic to the idea that if RL in west yorkshire had three top pro clubs and nobody else, that somehow the game would wither.

 

Three top clubs scrapping to be top dogs in all the areas you quote would easily attract an average 15,000 people to their derby games. In turn those sort of attendances would inspire the growth of junior RL and provide the funds to pay the areas best 75 players to be career RL professionals.

 

What's not to like?

 

What's your point??

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If we did ringfence these top 10 teams who would they be?I,m assuming you are including the likes of Huddersfield who only managed 7000 yesterday -and I would imagine a significant away support.

If we had 10 Wigan and Leeds,s out there OK-but its not going to happen.

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That's as good a simple analysis as I've ever had.

 

If changing the structure of the game won't alter the clubs then isn't it obvious that the solution is to change the structure of the clubs?

 

All our clubs are continually trying to be what they were in 1995 only full time professional outfits.

 

As they stand so many can't get a crowd to sustain this (4,000 at Wakey, 5,000 at Cas, 5,000 at Widnes) so many can't develop players (couple of Wakey lads playing in SL as first picks, handful of Warrington and Salford/Manchester lads equally playing as first picks).

 

So what did Uncle Maurice propose???

 

Here we go again around and around..................

 

I should have said the structure of the competition, of course.

 

Yes, we do need to improve the structure of the clubs and change their aims from just winning things.


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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If we did ringfence these top 10 teams who would they be?I,m assuming you are including the likes of Huddersfield who only managed 7000 yesterday -and I would imagine a significant away support.

If we had 10 Wigan and Leeds,s out there OK-but its not going to happen.

 

Your still thinking inside the box.

 

Which 10 of the 37 professional clubs we have today should be ring fenced for a real Superleague??

 

I can safely suggest Hull, Leeds St.Helens and Wigan.

 

After that I'm stuck. After that the clubs either play out of dumps, don't produce professional players in any number beyond a few or don't attract enough fans. or are handicapped by any combination of these things.

 

Warrington perhaps? Les Catalans?? Toulouse??? Is Salford/Manchester too great a risk without long term commitment from D. K? would any clubs merge rather than carry on declining? Crowds well down at Fev, Cas and wakey this week??

 

How about Bradford/Fartown/Fax? All three in SL in 2003 when they interested 24,000 paying fans, today over ten years on they interest 16,000 paying fans.

 

Maybe the NRL can give us some inspiration?

 

 

.

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Your still thinking inside the box.

 

Which 10 of the 37 professional clubs we have today should be ring fenced for a real Superleague??

 

I can safely suggest Hull, Leeds St.Helens and Wigan.

 

After that I'm stuck. After that the clubs either play out of dumps, don't produce professional players in any number beyond a few or don't attract enough fans. or are handicapped by any combination of these things.

 

Warrington perhaps? Les Catalans?? Toulouse??? Is Salford/Manchester too great a risk without long term commitment from D. K? would any clubs merge rather than carry on declining? Crowds well down at Fev, Cas and wakey this week??

 

How about Bradford/Fartown/Fax? All three in SL in 2003 when they interested 24,000 paying fans, today over ten years on they interest 16,000 paying fans.

 

Maybe the NRL can give us some inspiration?

 

 

.

Fev got 2,500. Is that well down ? Cas were playing Catalans, no away support and not a big draw, Now cas are top of the league, expect a much bigger crowd at their next home game.

Halifax are in the championship. Bradford are in the bottom two with two bankruptcies in two years. Is it any surprise the aggregate attendance is down.

Now if Bradford were stable and in the top eight I would expect 10,000 and if Halifax were in SL I would expect 4,000. This would give you 21,000. The lost fans would be from Bradford, whose 15,000 average is not likely ever to return. That era was a one off.

Statistics are only good if you don't totally skew the numbers and circumstances just to make them prove a point.

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