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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

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Your right IMVHO to warn against ring fencing failures.

 

But perhaps we should look at your "areas that have been famous for producing talent".......

 

Leeds

Calder

Bradhuddersfax

Hull

Wigan

Widnes

Manchester/Salford

St.Helens

Warrington

South of France

 

Why not ring fence a club for each of those areas then we will ensure that places that produce players and attract fans through the turnstiles are not "condemned to a lifetime of obscurity".

 

Totally logical stuff, but those who want to preserve all the small clubs of yesteryear, clubs who put off people attending their games, clubs who don't produce players but feed off clubs who do, will baulk at this and find an argument for preserving the status quo, i.e. throwing money at preserving the past rather than investing in the future.

I dont completely disagree with you  but how do you get Salford to call themselves Manchester,how do you get Widnes to call themselves halton so that the whole borough feels involved,how do you get bradford,huddersfied & halifax to all disappear to form one club,the same goes for the Wakefield area?

Until acceptable answers are found then there really isnt much point in keeping talking about this

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I dont completely disagree with you  but how do you get Salford to call themselves Manchester,how do you get Widnes to call themselves halton so that the whole borough feels involved,how do you get bradford,huddersfied & halifax to all disappear to form one club,the same goes for the Wakefield area?

Until acceptable answers are found then there really isnt much point in keeping talking about this

 

Quite.

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I dont completely disagree with you  but how do you get Salford to call themselves Manchester,how do you get Widnes to call themselves halton so that the whole borough feels involved,how do you get bradford,huddersfied & halifax to all disappear to form one club,the same goes for the Wakefield area?

Until acceptable answers are found then there really isnt much point in keeping talking about this

 

How are you going to find an answer if no one can talk about it ?

 

Just curious ....


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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How are you going to find an answer if no one can talk about it ?

 

Just curious ....

No one is saying anything new about it.

For years one group of people have said xxx should merge to form one club, whilst fans of said clubs have just said no thanks,nothing to see here,move on.

Then the day after we all repeat the same thing.

 

Why should bradford fans watch a club, that plays out of a stadium, thats based in Huddersfield.

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I dont completely disagree with you  but how do you get Salford to call themselves Manchester,how do you get Widnes to call themselves halton so that the whole borough feels involved,how do you get bradford,huddersfied & halifax to all disappear to form one club,the same goes for the Wakefield area?

Until acceptable answers are found then there really isnt much point in keeping talking about this

 

It's a bit dangerous this appearance of self styled moderators saying what we should and should not talk about. No disrespect but let's allow people to discuss things and allow those who don't want to to not bother.

 

Whenever acceptable solutions aren't found to a problem then naturally people will keep the pot boiling.

 

The point is that we are finding out that our traditional clubs have no real future and the year upon year of wishful thinking is proving to be just that. Pie in the sky jam tomorrow stuff.

 

The speed at which the "World cup" effect has dissipated is alarming, and the early indications that the interest in the relegation fight just isn't there are massive alarm bells.

 

Enough people on here take the opinion the latest moves are doomed, so the debate will go on. The idea we are stuck with it is nonsense as Mr. Lenegan battles for power. All fascinating stuff for me, and naturally if 12 doesn't work, the next topic of conversation is 10. 

 

Let me know when crowds start booming and clubs start growing their fan and player bases and then we can stop talking about solutions.

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For years one group of people have said xxx should merge to form one club, whilst fans of said clubs have just said no thanks,

 

The fans have never ever been consulted.

 

SOME fans down Fev Ponte and Cas way took it upon themselves to have a "vote" of sorts with a sit in on the pitch.

 

At that time under semi pro league there were 12,200 fans watching at Wakey, Cas and Fev.

 

The few hundred got their way. Fourteen years later under professional Superleague the three clubs returned a total attendance this week of 11,700.

 

The junior playerbase is reducing in Cas, Featherstone have one junior club, and Wakefield don't turn out any great quality of young players.

 

The new structure is supposed to revitalise them?? Isn't this tragedy something worth talking about??

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How about Bradford/Fartown/Fax? All three in SL in 2003 when they interested 24,000 paying fans, today over ten years on they interest 16,000 paying fans.

 

.

 

I know you have problems with Huddersfield but surely even you can see it's harsh to lump one club who have doubled their attendance with a club that has halved theirs and another that has collapsed totally and then claim they are all the same!


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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Its less than 20 years ago since Halifax used to get bigger crowds than Huddersfield and Bradford combined.in fact I used to get bored of the one sided nature of the Huddersfield and Halifax fixures.Its only that Ken Davey was based the other side of Ainley top that things worked out differently.

Who is to say that the next Dr Koucash isn,t going to come from Oldham or Rochdale?

Thats why the new structure at least gives hope to all clubs.

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Its less than 20 years ago since Halifax used to get bigger crowds than Huddersfield and Bradford combined.in fact I used to get bored of the one sided nature of the Huddersfield and Halifax fixures.Its only that Ken Davey was based the other side of Ainley top that things worked out differently.

Who is to say that the next Dr Koucash isn,t going to come from Oldham or Rochdale?

Thats why the new structure at least gives hope to all clubs.

 

Would that be the David Brook days ?


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Could someone direct me to a post on this thread which explains how the new structure works next season? A post number will work as a reference.

 

I may have missed it and I'm not reading the whole thread just on the off chance. 

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The fans have never ever been consulted.

 

SOME fans down Fev Ponte and Cas way took it upon themselves to have a "vote" of sorts with a sit in on the pitch.

 

At that time under semi pro league there were 12,200 fans watching at Wakey, Cas and Fev.

 

The few hundred got their way. Fourteen years later under professional Superleague the three clubs returned a total attendance this week of 11,700.

 

The junior playerbase is reducing in Cas, Featherstone have one junior club, and Wakefield don't turn out any great quality of young players.

 

The new structure is supposed to revitalise them?? Isn't this tragedy something worth talking about??

This reduction in crowds would suggest that SL has been a miserable failure. Lies, damn lies etc.

Wakefield and Castleford have been in SL all those years. Isn't part of the remit to develop and assist he junior base. Didn't you laud the number of players the Calder region produced on another thread as being just behind Wigan and Leeds. This was when you were pushing your amalgamation theory of a massive Calder entity to challenge the big boys. You can't have it both ways. Does the Calder area produce players it does it not. I guess it depends which way your weather vane is turning on any particular day.

The new structure is not in place yet. Jockeying for position is what's happening and it's two weeks into the season. It's too small a sample to determine if attendances are down or not.

There are other factors at work in your sample example such as Wakefield having just escaped bankruptcy, having sold many players and operating on a health and safety crowd restriction.

Castleford were at home to Catalan, a notoriously poor draw with Northern fans. Castleford finished in the bottom three last year. A few wins and the Castleford crowds will increase. Winning does have that effect.

Featherstone's crowd was excellent. I don't see what your beef is there at all.

If the lower crowd figures transalate to the full season ahead, you might have a point. At present you don't.

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The fans have never ever been consulted.

 

SOME fans down Fev Ponte and Cas way took it upon themselves to have a "vote" of sorts with a sit in on the pitch.

 

At that time under semi pro league there were 12,200 fans watching at Wakey, Cas and Fev.

 

The few hundred got their way. Fourteen years later under professional Superleague the three clubs returned a total attendance this week of 11,700.

 

The junior playerbase is reducing in Cas, Featherstone have one junior club, and Wakefield don't turn out any great quality of young players.

 

The new structure is supposed to revitalise them?? Isn't this tragedy something worth talking about??

 

No Parky it wasn't just a "sit in" by a few fans.

Featherstone Rovers held an official ballot on the matter amongst the people who owned the club at the time i.e. the club members.

The result was in favour of going it alone.

Edited by Jimmy B

Lets not forget, Featherstone Rovers is a RUGBY club.

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Who is to say that the next Dr Koucash isn,t going to come from Oldham or Rochdale?

Thats why the new structure at least gives hope to all clubs.

If someone wants to pump millions of pounds into Oldham or Rochdale they'd get into SL under any structure.


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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I know you have problems with Huddersfield but surely even you can see it's harsh to lump one club who have doubled their attendance with a club that has halved theirs and another that has collapsed totally and then claim they are all the same!

 

I've no problems.

 

The problems are entirely with the three clubs in your area. None of them have been able to make a fist of being a top Superleague club. One collapsed and never came back, another has to have £Millions pumped in due to public apathy and the third is now collapsing big style.

 

My problem is we know the area has the resources to build a club to rival or better the Leeds and Wigans of this world.

 

The clubs attracted 14,000 fans as semi pro entities in 1995, just like the steady demise of the Calder clubs if Bradford's crowds fall then your area will end up with less interest in Superleague than there was for the semi pro game.

 

Not my problem at all Steve.

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No Parky it wasn't just a "sit in" by a few fans.

Featherstone Rovers held an official ballot on the matter amongst the people who owned the club at the time i.e. the club members.

The result was in favour of going it alone.

 

Come on then Jimmy, how many "members" was it?

 

Let's have the number??

 

Griff - do you have the number??

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Come on then Jimmy, how many "members" was it?

 

Let's have the number??

 

Griff - do you have the number??

 

A lot more than actually attend games these days.

 

And there's the rub - people don't want to lose their local team but don't really want the bother of actually supporting it.


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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A lot more than actually attend games these days.

 

And there's the rub - people don't want to lose their local team but don't really want the bother of actually supporting it.

 

That's the problem isn't it.

 

The members don't number enough to be representative of the potential support for Featherstone.

 

In 1995 nobody wanted to vote for anything but what they had.

 

Rovers members indeed voted to stay as they were.

 

Then when what they had voted for at Fev went down the pan 3,683 fans melted away to 800 ten years later.........

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With regards to post 59 on the locked 'Back to the future" thread, where I alleged that the last season of DIv 1 prior to SL was the worst for many years as regards attendances and I was challenged on the accuracy of that.

I Googled on the subject and a chart by that excellent statistician Padge came up.

According to Padge from 1976 to 1993/94 1976 was the worst season with 900,000 aggregate spectators for Div 1 and the best was 1993/94 with 1,280,000m aggregate spectators for Div 1.

In 1994/95 the last winter season and, as I stated a dead rubber season waiting for SL to start, the aggregate was 600,000 spectators at Div 1 games. This was clearly the worst season for many years and to use it as a comparison with SL attendances to demonstrate a huge increase is disingenuous.

Just saying.

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I think you might be confusing 1994/5 with 1995/6.

The latter was the stop gap season (otherwise known as the Centenary Season) before Super League began. It ran from Aug 1995 to Jan 1996 and was interrupted for a month because of the World Cup. It was an 11-team comp, so just 20 games each at an aggregate of 606,728 according to the Rothmans.

1994-5 was the last 'proper' winter season, running from August to April and the aggregate was 1,330,538, a slight decrease on 1993-4.

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I think you might be confusing 1994/5 with 1995/6.

The latter was the stop gap season (otherwise known as the Centenary Season) before Super League began. It ran from Aug 1995 to Jan 1996 and was interrupted for a month because of the World Cup. It was an 11-team comp, so just 20 games each at an aggregate of 606,728 according to the Rothmans.

1994-5 was the last 'proper' winter season, running from August to April and the aggregate was 1,330,538, a slight decrease on 1993-4.

I think you might be confusing 1994/5 with 1995/6.

The latter was the stop gap season (otherwise known as the Centenary Season) before Super League began. It ran from Aug 1995 to Jan 1996 and was interrupted for a month because of the World Cup. It was an 11-team comp, so just 20 games each at an aggregate of 606,728 according to the Rothmans.

1994-5 was the last 'proper' winter season, running from August to April and the aggregate was 1,330,538, a slight decrease on 1993-4.

That skews the aggregate comparison then but the average of 5,515 is still the worst since 1986/87 when it was 4,844. In 1988/89 for instance the average was 7,292. Perhaps that season should have been used as a comparison

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1994-5 was the last 'proper' winter season, running from August to April and the aggregate was 1,330,538, a slight decrease on 1993-4.

 

It was indeed a full season of 30 games apiece and was also saleable as the "Centenary" season. Rothmans recorded the aggregate attendances, but club for club wise the average was 5,543.

 

Interestingly by that time Wigan had become a big attractive outfit with Leeds hanging onto their coat tails, and these big clubs were turning in average crowds of 14,195 and 12,516 respectively but sadly outside this the other clubs averaged 4,427.

 

This was becoming an uncompetitive league in a game which clearly could draw the fans to the excitement of top class RL, but outside the top two it wasn't happening. The danger of tweaking anything was of course to risk the demise of Wigan and Leeds as powers, just to elevate someone else to have a turn at winning.

 

Superleague came in and in time salary capped the clubs and to be fair (and positive) Wigan maintained their crowds despite no longer being top dogs every year, after some money troubles and a blip accordingly Leeds regained their slumping crowds and grew them to 17,416 in 2007..

 

But the roaring success of Superleague was that other clubs grew into "big clubs". In 2006 Hull recorded a 14,553 average on the back of being able to compete for trophies.

 

By 2012 Saints had had their share of trophies and found a decent ground to maximise their crowds and they returned 14,113 average.

 

Bulls were the big crowd success, without the ground or the steadying influence of a rich owner a massive 15,259 trooped in to Odsal in 2003.

 

Warrington weren't a bad side 1994/5 they were runners up to inevitably Wigan in the Regal Trophy and averaged 5,380 that they now can compete better from a new stadium has seen that average grow and peak at 11,149 in recent seasons.

 

The trick for Superleague is of course to try to keep all clubs competitive and those wonderful crowds up there whilst growing some more big clubs. In recent times we have turned to France and Les Catalans have attained an average of 9,280 in 2012. Eyes then turned to the bigger city of Toulouse.

 

Poor stadia in the Calder area and lack of investment hold things back but Castleford's 7.490 in 2009 and Wakefields 8,172 in 2012 indicate that if one of them could find the ground and the money to keep players in that area then 10,000 gates would be realisable.

 

I've always thought that Superleague has done extremely well to rescue the game but could have done so much better, but that's another argument we've run for 17 years. Despite running into a bit of a dark period (but nowhere as near as black as 1994/5) we can still hope that further strides may in time be made.

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Its difficult to assess when our game was at its strongest.

Even though crowds were not as big overall as today-I remember the early to mid nineties as a period when internationally we were nearer to Australia than at any other time since the early seventies,the overall strenghth of clubs outside the elite was stronger and the amateur game in the heartlands was a lot more vibrant.

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1980/81 1,226,428 average 5,110 16 clubs

1981/82 1,264,520 average 5,268 16 clubs

1989/90 1,173,815 average 6,450  14 clubs

1990/91 1,168,407 average 6,420  14 clubs

1991/92 1,185,117 average 6,511  14 clubs

1992/93 1,122,955 average 6,170  14 clubs

1993/94 1,364,056 average 5,683  16 clubs

1994/95 1,330,538 average 5,543  16 clubs

 

Here's the danger of reading stats without the fuller picture.

 

1991/2 looks like the game was at it's peak in the First Division at 6,511 a game and by 1995 it had slumped to 5,543 a game. As you can see the addition of two lesser supported clubs affected the average.

 

But 14 clubs is the order of the day today so maybe it's easy to set the 6,511 against Superleague:-

 

2007  9,833   12 clubs

2008  9,819   12 clubs

2009  8.730   14 clubs

2010  8,730   14 clubs

2011  8,879   14 clubs

2012  9,431   14 clubs

2013  8,473   14 clubs

 

No If's no But's,

 

the best season of the 1st.Division at 14 clubs was an average of 6,511 fans

the best season of Superleague at 14 clubs was an average of 9,431 fans

 

45% increase in gates,  Corrections welcome..... 

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Comparing averages at the top end is certainly one way of assessing different era,s.But I also remember this period and indeed the eighties for good crowds at Challenge cup games,crowds of over 1000 at second team games and 2000 at Yorkshire cup finals (amateur).

The average fan these days seems to buy a SL season ticket and attend few other games.

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Whatever happened to the lovely grounds that were promised in the Calder area? As part of the licensing at some point did both Cas and Wakey not promise new grounds? I could be wrong here, so please correct me if necessary!

 

The growth is very good, but looking at the dates, I have had a thought. Now this is just spit balling, so forgive me. In the mid-nineties, it seemed to became more acceptable for whole familes (and in particular girls) to support football. Looking at premier league average attendances (on worldfootball.net), they jumped by about 17% in the 95-96 season compared to the 94-95 season (by far the biggest change in average crowd during the PL era). Do we think something similar happened in SL? I note that from the last 'proper' winter season to the first SL season, we saw a 18% jump in attendances (from wiki and Parky's numbers). I'm sure that playing in summer had something to do with it, and it is likely just a coincidence, but they are pretty similar % increases.

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