The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

London, along with Catalan, automatically get the Salary Cap international weighting.

 

Not saying it does London a lot of good but it is taken into consideration.

Yes but this is still only 10%, whereas living costs are, relatively speaking, far higher.

Edited July 20, 2013 by RugbyLeagueGeek

[The Parksider]

Given that there has been the suggestion from some quarters citing cricket as an exponent of P&R, here's an interesting perspective on domestic cricket in this country: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/counties/9976184/County-cricket-in-need-of-reinvention-with-falling-crowds-and-lack-of-stars-leaving-the-format-in-the-doldrums.html

 

Very interesting that. However I have no doubt that to open up the game to a P & R system will be highly interesting what with a top eight place to compete for, SL survival to compete for, promotion to SL to compete for and a chance to play a higher level if your a lower CC club to play for. In terms of being exciting and interesting for the fans it will. It's a no brainer IMHO.

 

How many paying fans will click the turnstyles is another matter. CC crowds fell from 2500 to 1800 under P & R and under licensing fell further to 1100. Superleague crowds have largely held up but the clubs getting a kicking has seen the crowds at the foot of SL drop.

 

RL fans seem to like top class RL and don't like losers. IMHO it remains to be see whether "SL2" reverses the trend for fans to abandon second tier RL, and whether the bottom four SL losers and winning second tier clubs help each other pull bumper gates in the play off phase.

Edited July 21, 2013 by The Parksider

[Lobbygobbler]

Very interesting that. However I have no doubt that to open up the game to a P & R system will be highly interesting what with a top eight place to compete for, SL survival to compete for, promotion to SL to compete for and a chance to play a higher level if your a lower CC club to play for. In terms of being exciting and interesting for the fans it will. It's a no brainer IMHO.

How many paying fans will click the turnstyles is another matter. CC crowds fell from 2500 to 1800 under P & R and under licensing fell further to 1100. Superleague crowds have largely held up but the clubs getting a kicking has seen the crowds at the foot of SL drop.

RL fans seem to like top class RL and don't like losers. IMHO it remains to be see whether "SL2" reverses the trend for fans to abandon second tier RL, and whether the bottom four SL losers and winning second tier clubs help each other pull bumper gates in the play off phase.

Good post Parky. I would tend to agree that perhaps people in RL town prefer winners. This maybe the influence of fans of big local soccer teams like Man U, who live in the same town (and may have also followed the rugby team when successful).

I think the proposed P&R models are better than the staid 1up 1down model (which makes relegation a nightmare) or licensing, so hopefully we'll see a jump in attendances. You may have noted how many Leigh took yesterday to the NRC, and the likes of Cru will draw big gates too

[Spidey]

You may have noted how many Leigh took yesterday to the NRC, and the likes of Cru will draw big gates too

I don't think 4k for a final is that much really.

[Ponterover]

I don't think 4k for a final is that much really.

 

I think the low crowd has plenty to do with the location.

 

When it was decided to ditch Blackpool, it was entirely predictable that this would happen.

 

Not disrespect to Halifax, but it's not exactly a great day out (except for the excellent Eureka! museum).

[Lobbygobbler]

I don't think 4k for a final is that much really.

Agreed but that was due to a low turnout from Sheffield (the Skolars turnout was understandable and would have been higher if played at Donny or Wire - a few of us couldnt go due to the last train being tok early).

It looked like Leigh took significantly more to Halifax for a minor final, than Huddersfield took to Wire for a winnable major QF

[thundergaz]

I don't think 4k for a final is that much really.

Yes spot on. But you have fax , Leigh and us who are the best supported teams in league by a country mile. So if one of those three get to a final without one of the other two you can guarantee the crowd would be very one sided/low. For a RL fan of one of those 3 clubs drawing the eagles in a final is a nightmare as they are one of the worst supported clubs in the champ and the atmosphere is terrible.

Edited July 21, 2013 by thundergaz

[Griff]

Good post Parky. I would tend to agree that perhaps people in RL town prefer winners. This maybe the influence of fans of big local soccer teams like Man U, who live in the same town (and may have also followed the rugby team when successful).

I think the proposed P&R models are better than the staid 1up 1down model (which makes relegation a nightmare) or licensing, so hopefully we'll see a jump in attendances. You may have noted how many Leigh took yesterday to the NRC, and the likes of Cru will draw big gates too

A lot of folk on a one-off day out. League attendances will be back to normal soon.

[Lobbygobbler]

A lot of folk on a one-off day out. League attendances will be back to normal soon.

Of course they will as there is feck all to play for until P&R returns in 2015. Its quite suprising how people just dont get this

[RSN]

Good post Parky. I would tend to agree that perhaps people in RL town prefer winners. This maybe the influence of fans of big local soccer teams like Man U, who live in the same town (and may have also followed the rugby team when successful).

I think the proposed P&R models are better than the staid 1up 1down model (which makes relegation a nightmare) or licensing, so hopefully we'll see a jump in attendances. You may have noted how many Leigh took yesterday to the NRC, and the likes of Cru will draw big gates too

It's obvious you get fans through the gate if your winning. I'd say about a third of your support would attend every game if you lost all your games in a season.

The main problem with P and R is you build up a fan support by winning lots of games in the Championship and then get to SL and lose most games and hence lose most of this support and go bust. My problem with licensing is that you win most your games build up support and eventually your fan base gets bored as there is a ceiling above your head.

You seem incapable to be able to comprehend the P and R point.

[Griff]

Of course they will as there is feck all to play for until P&R returns in 2015. Its quite suprising how people just dont get this

So why did people turn out yesterday ? Leigh were promoted to ...... what ?

It's quite surprising how people just don't get this.

[The Parksider]

The main problem with P and R is you build up a fan support by winning lots of games in the Championship and then get to SL and lose most games and hence lose most of this support and go bust.

 

Here's the stats to help.

 

There were nine promotions before licensing, Firstly note P & R "with standards" stifles P & R.

 

The average stats for a promoted club were that they won 17 out of 21 championship games and had crowds of 3,900.

 

Once promoted they struggled and lost an average of 18 out of 26 games.

 

But playing in the top tier of "Superleague" saw their crowds rise to an average of 5,800

 

They didn't lose "most of their support" indeed they increased support by 50%

 

But the problem was that that increase still left the promoted clubs with a massive monetary shortfall operating professionally despite the SKY money.

 

That led to severe financial difficulties except where a rich chairmen was in place to bridge that gap.

 

P & R is about Yo-Yoing unless the club goes up with a rich chairman.

[Lobbygobbler]

So why did people turn out yesterday ? Leigh were promoted to ...... what ?

It's quite surprising how people just don't get this.

A lot turned out but a lot didnt - inc. me. There wasnt enough at stake for me justify an overnight stay.

If promotion had been at stake OR a Wembley final, I would have.

I'm obviously glad we won, and the small prize money will be welcome, but at the end of the day it is a only minor cup. I'm old enough to see us win the league and be the best in the land. Again though the excellent turn out shows how many fans we'd get for something like a CC semi

[RSN]

Here's the stats to help.

There were nine promotions before licensing, Firstly note P & R "with standards" stifles P & R.

The average stats for a promoted club were that they won 17 out of 21 championship games and had crowds of 3,900.

Once promoted they struggled and lost an average of 18 out of 26 games.

But playing in the top tier of "Superleague" saw their crowds rise to an average of 5,800

They didn't lose "most of their support" indeed they increased support by 50%

But the problem was that that increase still left the promoted clubs with a massive monetary shortfall operating professionally despite the SKY money.

That led to severe financial difficulties except where a rich chairmen was in place to bridge that gap.

P & R is about Yo-Yoing unless the club goes up with a rich chairman.

Maybe 'lose most of their support' is incorrect as the stats you provided suggest.

'Support doesn't increase as much as expected or doesn't increase enough to compete' is probably more correct.

[The Parksider]

'Support doesn't increase enough to compete' is probably more correct.

 

Castleford have had severe money problems lately

 

HKR were having to be propped up by £500K a year.

 

Salford cost more to prop up so Wilkinson gave up

 

Richardson had to give up on Trinity who went bust

 

Hull at the Boulevard went towards bust & the Gateshead merger farce

 

Widnes went up and went bust

 

Leigh had no money and just came straight back down

 

Huddersfield remain up and improving due the Ken Daveys perpetual £millions

 

Hull had a massive fan increase on getting the KC stadium

 

Superleague is pitched at a level that is too rich for OVER half the Superleague clubs unless they have a seriously rich chairman.

 

It is certainly too rich for the championship clubs unless Nahaboo and Abbot provide the finances.

 

P & R is a bit of a front for the real game which I think Ralph Rimmer once said was won or lost in the accountants office and not on the pitch.

Edited July 21, 2013 by The Parksider

[THE RED ROOSTER]

Here's the stats to help.

 

There were nine promotions before licensing, Firstly note P & R "with standards" stifles P & R.

 

The average stats for a promoted club were that they won 17 out of 21 championship games and had crowds of 3,900.

 

Once promoted they struggled and lost an average of 18 out of 26 games.

 

But playing in the top tier of "Superleague" saw their crowds rise to an average of 5,800

 

They didn't lose "most of their support" indeed they increased support by 50%

 

But the problem was that that increase still left the promoted clubs with a massive monetary shortfall operating professionally despite the SKY money.

 

That led to severe financial difficulties except where a rich chairmen was in place to bridge that gap.

 

P & R is about Yo-Yoing unless the club goes up with a rich chairman.

 

Just one point Parky,IMO if you researched the increase in Championship clubs support in Superleague  yopu might find that actually this is largely down to the increase in away support due to having Wigan / Warrington or Leeds and the Hull Clubs close by depending on what side of the pennines the club is.

 

London and Catalans are the only two that do not benefit in this way. I wonder how many business plans are being drawn up on the basis of an increase in AWAY support.

 

Still in the brave new world of 2015, with expansion a memory and the game returned to being a local game for local people, Heartland clubs will compete with each other for the same fanbase in Rugby League's very own postcode lottery. I am sure this regional game will be most attractive to Broadcasters and sponsors and the initials HMRC will no longer have any connection to clubs from Rugby League.

[The Parksider]

1. Just one point Parky,IMO if you researched the increase in Championship clubs support in Superleague  yopu might find that actually this is largely down to the increase in away support due to having Wigan / Warrington or Leeds and the Hull Clubs close by depending on what side of the pennines the club is.

2. Still in the brave new world of 2015, with expansion a memory and the game returned to being a local game for local people, Heartland clubs will compete with each other for the same fanbase in Rugby League's very own postcode lottery. I am sure this regional game will be most attractive to Broadcasters and sponsors and the initials HMRC will no longer have any connection to clubs from Rugby League.

 

1. The fairest measure I can use is the clubs average crowd in the Championship promotion campaign against their subsequent years home Superleague fixture against London, who do not bring many away fans. Promoted Championship clubs averaged  3,900 and in the subsequent season promoted to SL their crowds against the Broncos averaged 5,150. I've no doubt that getting promotion stirs more of your own local fans to come out and see the club in SL.

 

Too much may be made of away support based on these figures, it's only an opinion but I do think a lot of fans of the big clubs don't want to travel to away games against the smaller SL clubs. As a for instance Salford entertained Wigan, Wire and Saints last year and the average crowd for those games was just over 6,000. their BEST THREE fixtures in the new stadium were loss making crowds. Hence they collapsed as Wilko gave up.

 

The problem seems to me that "Promotion" may be a big thing to the clubs involved (It was to me when Hunslet went up) but don't expect too many of the local populace to be flocking to games as a result of it and rely on away support even less.

 

Applying the same figures to Featherstone and Halifax if they had been promoted last year to SL this year would be 2,000 crowds going up 50% to 3,000. The facts really are depressing hence I think we tend to gloss over them.

 

2. I don't subscribe to clubs fighting for the same fans. In my experience the fight is for new fans. In Leeds as nearly all new fans gravitated to Leeds so the Hunslet crowd aged and declined as they picked up no new fans. This isn't Hunslet fans changing allegiance. Recently the Leigh Chairmen spoke of an ageing fanbase at Leigh as well.

 

Whilst the game will return to "local people" it is mainly "local people" who put the £Millions of private investment in, and local fans who last year provided an average SL crowd of 10,000 fans per local club.

 

The game is playing to it's ""strengths"" now. In doing so it needs to get all the fans watching Superleague, and that's what Lyndsay tried to get them to do 17 years ago.

[Griff]

Away supporters pay just like everyone else and perhaps more should be done to encourage them to travel. Clubs sell each others' tickets from time to time but, in my experience, with little enthusiasm.

However, the core customers are always the home supporters. They're the ones with the "secondary spend".

[Griff]

I'm obviously glad we won, and the small prize money will be welcome, but at the end of the day it is only a minor cup.

We RL supporters don't half like to moan don't we ? We're our own worst enemies. For me, the NRC is a chance at a Cup competition that we can realistically win, as opposed to just coming up against the brick wall of a $uperleague side, hoping for a big payday.

I quite like this structure that there's a Cup for each division. Challenge Cup for $uperleague, NRC for Div 2 and Bowl for Div 3 - albeit, in theory at least, any club can win from a lower division.

We say we want to win things, then, when we do, it's still not good enough.

[thundergaz]

Away supporters pay just like everyone else and perhaps more should be done to encourage them to travel. Clubs sell each others' tickets from time to time but, in my experience, with little enthusiasm.

However, the core customers are always the home supporters. They're the ones with the "secondary spend".

That's the problem their though Richie most teams in the champ except Fev,Leigh and fax rely heavily on away support as most havnt got a good home following.

[JohnM]

Griff, I strongly disagree when you say,"We RL supporters don't half like to moan don't we ? |"  

 

Its much more than half, and if one uses this forum as a sample, it's about 80%, reinforced by the disproportionate number of posts by the naysayers with their  relentless and numerous attack on the game, the rules,  present and future structures, referees,  present and future game leadership, quality and volume of TV coverage, etc.  These people claim to love the game so much that one advocated/suggested that his club should turn to union.

[Griff]

Griff, I strongly disagree when you say,"We RL supporters don't half like to moan don't we ? |"  

 

Its much more than half, and if one uses this forum as a sample, it's about 80%, reinforced by the disproportionate number of posts by the naysayers with their  relentless and numerous attack on the game, the rules,  present and future structures, referees,  present and future game leadership, quality and volume of TV coverage, etc.  These people claim to love the game so much that one advocated/suggested that his club should turn to union.

Fair point.

[Griff]

That's the problem their though Richie most teams in the champ except Fev, Leigh and fax rely heavily on away support as most haven't got a good home following.

"Rely on" is grossly overstating it, Gaz. If we've got eleven clubs in Div 2 hanging on, on the basis of three "big" paydays a year - which aren't actually all that big - we may as well all give up now, because the game's in big trouble.

[thundergaz]

"Rely on" is grossly overstating it, Gaz. If we've got eleven clubs in Div 2 hanging on, on the basis of three "big" paydays a year - which aren't actually all that big - we may as well all give up now, because the game's in big trouble.

I will accept that Richie but I think the DR system as saved a few champ clubs from going under. I could be wrong but I think a few in the champ are in financial decline.

[Griff]

I will accept that Richie but I think the DR system as saved a few champ clubs from going under. I could be wrong but I think a few in the champ are in financial decline.

Mate - I can see a time - a good number of years into the future, admittedly - where professional sport is only played at the highest level (apart from soccer, probably). It's driven by the customer's refusal to accept nothing but constant success. On top of that the Government and the RFL are driving standards up at a time when income is falling, leaving directors to fund gaps from their own pockets.

Sport's different to other industries. You need an opposition. Look after the losers because, without them, there can be no winners.