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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Parochial to the end

Have you ever visited perpignan?

Has it occurred to you that the team doesn't represent the city but it's environs and the catalan people? There's a clue in the name.

 

What do they do to further the cause of the English game? They make trip to an away game one of the highlights of the season for super league club fans. They make a massive contribution to the English game on the field clue: they've been to Wembley and gave made a big impact on super league. They add a vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, which a,great many fans find exciting. 

 

They make a major contribution to THE GAME

 

A quick Google search, which you could have made for yourself reveals that the perpignan metropolitan area has a population of over 300,000

I don't know what we would do if we couldn't travel to Perpignan every year. Yes it's a great trip for the fans but what does it do for SL in the UK. A vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, ooo, er where would we be if we didn't see a team full of Aussies and French superstars who could only manage to beat Papua New Guinea in the World Cup. I am not advocating dispensing with the Catalans but I think they get more from the deal than the UK SL does. I think their appearance in the Cup Final resulted in one of the smallest attendances in recent years.

If you read my post you would see where I said I had recently been to Perpignan and the population of the city is 120,000. I drove to the beach and up into the Pyrenhees and I don't think a huge amount of support would drive to the city to follow the Catalans especially as the RU team is also a power in the area.

What you are doing is like me claiming that Keighley could draw from the whole population of the Bradford MET because they are located in it's administrative area.

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Parochial to the end

Have you ever visited perpignan?

Has it occurred to you that the team doesn't represent the city but it's environs and the catalan people? There's a clue in the name.

 

What do they do to further the cause of the English game? They make trip to an away game one of the highlights of the season for super league club fans. They make a massive contribution to the English game on the field clue: they've been to Wembley and gave made a big impact on super league. They add a vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, which a,great many fans find exciting. 

 

They make a major contribution to THE GAME

 

A quick Google search, which you could have made for yourself reveals that the perpignan metropolitan area has a population of over 300,000

I don't know what we would do if we couldn't travel to Perpignan every year. Yes it's a great trip for the fans but what does it do for SL in the UK. A vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, ooo, er where would we be if we didn't see a team full of Aussies and French superstars who could only manage to beat Papua New Guinea in the World Cup. I am not advocating dispensing with the Catalans but I think they get more from the deal than the UK SL does. I think their appearance in the Cup Final resulted in one of the smallest attendances in recent years.

If you read my post you would see where I said I had recently been to Perpignan and the population of the city is 120,000. I drove to the beach and up into the Pyrenhees and I don't think a huge amount of support would drive to the city to follow the Catalans especially as the RU team is also a power in the area.

What you are doing is like me claiming that Keighley could draw from the whole population of the Bradford MET because they are located in it's administrative area.

I don't know what happened there, I managed to get my reply under your heading,\. My apologies

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Parochial to the end

Have you ever visited perpignan?

Has it occurred to you that the team doesn't represent the city but it's environs and the catalan people? There's a clue in the name.

 

What do they do to further the cause of the English game? They make trip to an away game one of the highlights of the season for super league club fans. They make a massive contribution to the English game on the field clue: they've been to Wembley and gave made a big impact on super league. They add a vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, which a,great many fans find exciting. 

 

They make a major contribution to THE GAME

 

A quick Google search, which you could have made for yourself reveals that the perpignan metropolitan area has a population of over 300,000

I don't know what we would do if we couldn't travel to Perpignan every year. Yes it's a great trip for the fans but what does it do for SL in the UK. A vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, ooo, er where would we be if we didn't see a team full of Aussies and French superstars who could only manage to beat Papua New Guinea in the World Cup. I am not advocating dispensing with the Catalans but I think they get more from the deal than the UK SL does. I think their appearance in the Cup Final resulted in one of the smallest attendances in recent years.

If you read my post you would see where I said I had recently been to Perpignan and the population of the city is 120,000. I drove to the beach and up into the Pyrenhees and I don't think a huge amount of support would drive to the city to follow the Catalans especially as the RU team is also a power in the area.

What you are doing is like me claiming that Keighley could draw from the whole population of the Bradford MET because they are located in it's administrative area.

I don't know what happened there, I managed to get my reply under your heading,\. My apologies

 

 

 

what I am doing is responding to your post

120, 000 or 300,000 it seems pretty adequate to me.

it has nothing to do with any similarity(from what I can see there is very little) between Perpignan metropolitan area and the Bradford Metropolitan area.

 

it isn't a UK Super League its a European Super League: se my previous post for my suggestions regarding  their contribution to it

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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That's up to the clubs as to whether they can hack it or not. They will have done their sums. I think the people running Fev and Fax and maybe Leigh think they can manage it.

I don't think they can do any worse than some of the failing clubs whom I am not allowed to reference.

Let them try and we will see whether they can hack it or not. As you say Huddersfield were all but dead and Davy has brought them back to the point where they won the league leaders shield and Hull KR have risen from the third division to SL, as have Widnes from div 2 and indeed Salford.

 

But i was asking for people's genuine opinion if they thought any of those teams as they stand could  live with SL, It was sort of quite separate from the thread if you like, I don't really want to know what is likely, or Possible,  or what we want to happen . Just a straight opinion on if they could make it.

 

My opinion is, I don't think any of them can make it as things stand at this time, I think some of them believe they can but , It's a bit like when you cost the building of your new house, as the saying goes double your estimate and you will be nearer the true cost.

 

Remember this is just an opinion, but i can't seem to get anyone else to give one, You did however answer my post , so i thank you for that.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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I think I've got my viewpoint across enough so probably not gonna mention much more (mainly because it's proving a massive distraction to the jolly fun 4,000 word essay in supposed to be writing about teaching arithmetic!).

Thought if just leave it with saying that it's great that so many people have strong opinions about wanting to improve the game, whether we agree with them or not!

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 Also I was in Perpignan recently for the first time and it is a charming place but hardly a big city. 

 

Catalan Dragons are not the team of Perpignan as Castleford Tigers are the team of Castleford, they are the team of the Catalan Region. A huge area, with a very large population. They are the elite face of a rugby league area. This of course is an anathema to you.

 

Of course most of their supporters who turn up for games on a regular basis will be from Perpignan, but their support base is aimed at a much wider audience, and their TV and merchandising base is what they are aiming to sell.

 

 

You really don't get this modern marketing thinking do you.

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All those teams (Salford, Hull, Perpignan, Toulouse, Hull, Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield) except for Toulouse are already in SL so where are the big city teams that you want to be in SL to replace Castleford, Widnes, Huddersfield, Hull KR, and others.

 

Also I was in Perpignan recently for the first time and it is a charming place but hardly a big city. You have only recently jumped on the Salford band wagon. You had a whole thread last year where you wrote the Manchester conurbation off as a lost cause prior to Koukash.

 

St. Helens and Wigan two of the games biggest clubs add to the eight to make a ten club Superleague and an impressive one at that, couldn't you work that one out??

 

You don't receive, you just transmit. I withdrew Salford from my list and added Widnes. It was a mistake, Any determined and well planned consolidation of SL needs to remove such as Salford even with Koukash. It was a bad mistake. It's easy to be dragged along on the idea rich men's subsidies will "make" the game.

 

That's how your position has gradually evolved to the point where if P & R comes back you said more rich men will somehow be attracted to take on clubs, even though the problem we have is rich men are fed up subbing clubs and losing in the bottom half of SL and rich men are trying to make clubs self sufficient at the top. Even though under P & R 1996 - 2006 few came forward. Care to deal with that??

 

Only two clubs are propped up by regular £Millions, and a 10 strong club Superleague that wants financial stability and longevity does not need that IMHO. Look at Mr. Khan - how long did it take him to walk away? Or Mr. Glover.

 

It was a bad mistake on my part. Salford half competed in SL on Wilkinson's £Millions and he walked away. That left the real prospect of no Salford at all - a big lesson to learn and I made a big mistake and got trapped in the idea a strong SL needs Koukash. Widnes are clearly the better bet with the stronger plans. I can concede to VW on this.

 

You haven't changed your position one iota. You also made the mistake of still insisting on "standards" for P &R when it's standards that keep clubs from promotion. They are not "all inclusive" they prevent what happens on the pitch being the driver for the structure of the game? Care to now deal with that?

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Even with 10 or even 8 clubs in SL you will never have financial security or stop clubs from going bust as the game doesnt generate enough interest and money for a start. SL and Pro Rugby League is built on sand and very unstable. Even before SL many clubs suffered financial problems and SL through its various forms has not improved things one bit. Many clubs cant/wont even run a reserve team or run academy teams properly. This idea that we should not have P & R or that certain clubs should not be considered due to events that happened 10, 20 or 30 years ago is pathetic. Things can change in life especially in sport pretty quickly. Look at Warrington, Bradford, Wigan, Wakefield, Hull, Huddersfield over the past 10 years. Whats to stop say in 5 years Fax, Leigh, Fev or Sheffield being in a better finacial position than say Wakefield, Castleford, Hull KR, Salford?

 

Catalans are unique as they are more than just a City team or even a State team. Catalans represent Perpignan, Catalans and France. They also have a reserve grade that play in the French Elite 1 and I do feel they benefit from that more than the English who run with no reserve grade to save money. The Catalans represent a culture and a nation. No English team is like that. Having been lucky enough to watch Catalans as well as some French Elite 1 the atmosphere for me its completely different to a English game. Its just a shame that the French game beneath Catalans is not stronger and that also needs sorting

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i struggle to grasp the idea that the sport doesn't generate enough money....when the tv deals alone bring in £130m plus...

 

 

i struggle to grasp the idea that super league clubs struggle when between 70-100% of a clubs salary cap is paid for via the sky money....

 

 

is the sport dying?? or is the club run by people who can count???

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i struggle to grasp the idea that the sport doesn't generate enough money....when the tv deals alone bring in £130m plus...

 

 

i struggle to grasp the idea that super league clubs struggle when between 70-100% of a clubs salary cap is paid for via the sky money....

 

 

is the sport dying?? or is the club run by people who can count???

 

I think the £130,000,000 is per 5 years. So TV brings in £26,000,000 a year

 

I'll gladly give way to those who know and can read the the accounts of clubs, and who have a detailed handle on the scale of the businesses, but the first thing is the top clubs spend £5M to £6M a year being top clubs.

 

The salaries are indeed "capped" at £1.65M but there are high costs looking after these players in terms of housing maybe, expenses, coaching, training and full time conditioning staff. then you need a staff and create high expenses looking after the ground and running the various facilities. After that there's the administration and marketing, there's travel and hotel costs. I'll stop there, as the experts will no doubt have more to detail and some real figures to give you.

 

I think this question is brilliant and you are far from struggling. My club Hunslet was a CC club last year. I suspect their spending was a few hundred thousand, and maybe I am being generous there.In short they run as a CC club and Leeds run as a SL club. To do so Leeds have to spend £over 5.5Million more than Hunslet.

 

Yet we are going through now literally thousands of posts with people trying to argue that Hunslet should be allowed promotion and Leeds should be demoted should Hunslet top CC and Leeds have a bad season.

 

Is it really "real world" to suggest its as easy as that?

 

In reality Promotion means a club having to find a professional side, a large backroom staff and a few million to pay for them and the facilities to run at professional level. In contrast relegation means losing all your pro-players, sacking staff and cutting costs hand over fist, paying out redundancies etc etc.

 

Then literally only months later when Leeds get promoted and Hunslet are relegated in true yo-yo fashion there's the massive costs and upheaval of the change round all over again, lumped onto both clubs.

 

P & R with a financial gap of £4-£5 million is untenable and dreadfully damaging to our game that can ill afford it. For me a 10 club even SL needs £60,000,00 to break even. I think we could get there.

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If we're to be forced into having p&r (urgh), has anyone suggested a system based on average performance over a longer period? I came across just this sort of system in the Argentinian football league - the bottom three teams based on the average points scored in the previous three seasons are relegated - therefore, a team getting promoted finds it much easier to stay up than a team that's been struggling for a longer period.

 

Probably deemed by some as too complicated, but, as for any of these systems, nobody's asking the fans to do the maths.

www.rugbyleagueratings.com - more accurate than you might think. @rlratings

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Even with 10 or even 8 clubs in SL you will never have financial security or stop clubs from going bust as the game doesnt generate enough interest and money for a start. SL and Pro Rugby League is built on sand and very unstable. Even before SL many clubs suffered financial problems and SL through its various forms has not improved things one bit.  This idea that we should not have P & R  pathetic. 

 

What I find pathetic Lizzy is that we have a MONEY problem and we are trying to work out a STRUCTURAL solution.

 

There is a large collective opinion outside of Halifax, Dewsbury, Featherstone, Leigh Keighley and Shefield fans who fear being shut out of SL,that P & R has been tried for years and years and it does not address the problem. Many commentators within the game agree P & R is not the solution to a money problem

 

Equally we all agree the game should spend within it’s means. That is a MONEY solution and we nearly ALL agree that works. Superleague has never spent within it’s means hence it’s a darn good idea to examine how it may be able to do this.

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What I find pathetic Lizzy is that we have a MONEY problem and we are trying to work out a STRUCTURAL solution.

There is a large collective opinion outside of Halifax, Dewsbury, Featherstone, Leigh Keighley and Shefield fans who fear being shut out of SL,that P & R has been tried for years and years and it does not address the problem. Many commentators within the game agree P & R is not the solution to a money problem

Equally we all agree the game should spend within it’s means. That is a MONEY solution and we nearly ALL agree that works. Superleague has never spent within it’s means hence it’s a darn good idea to examine how it may be able to do this.

Most people in business do not believe in a communist state

Rewarding failure is not the solution to the games cash shortage, generating extra income is. Forcing a business to fight for survival and success is why any progressive company exists

This forum has too many folk who have lived off the state for too long, leave the sports future to we expantionists who believe in capitalism as the solution to our income failures

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I think the £130,000,000 is per 5 years. So TV brings in £26,000,000 a year

I'll gladly give way to those who know and can read the the accounts of clubs, and who have a detailed handle on the scale of the businesses, but the first thing is the top clubs spend £5M to £6M a year being top clubs.

The salaries are indeed "capped" at £1.65M but there are high costs looking after these players in terms of housing maybe, expenses, coaching, training and full time conditioning staff. then you need a staff and create high expenses looking after the ground and running the various facilities. After that there's the administration and marketing, there's travel and hotel costs. I'll stop there, as the experts will no doubt have more to detail and some real figures to give you.

I think this question is brilliant and you are far from struggling. My club Hunslet was a CC club last year. I suspect their spending was a few hundred thousand, and maybe I am being generous there.In short they run as a CC club and Leeds run as a SL club. To do so Leeds have to spend £over 5.5Million more than Hunslet.

Yet we are going through now literally thousands of posts with people trying to argue that Hunslet should be allowed promotion and Leeds should be demoted should Hunslet top CC and Leeds have a bad season.

Is it really "real world" to suggest its as easy as that?

In reality Promotion means a club having to find a professional side, a large backroom staff and a few million to pay for them and the facilities to run at professional level. In contrast relegation means losing all your pro-players, sacking staff and cutting costs hand over fist, paying out redundancies etc etc.

Then literally only months later when Leeds get promoted and Hunslet are relegated in true yo-yo fashion there's the massive costs and upheaval of the change round all over again, lumped onto both clubs.

P & R with a financial gap of £4-£5 million is untenable and dreadfully damaging to our game that can ill afford it. For me a 10 club even SL needs £60,000,00 to break even. I think we could get there.

Yet Manu Chelsea etc accept it is the only way to prosper

They don't start a season thinking they may be relegated, and that applies to your £6m spenders in SL

Until we can get the 10/12 elite clubs the ones facing the challenge are Widnes Cas Fev fax leigh Wakefield Salford London Hudds after davey and the Bradford of today

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........

I think this question is brilliant and you are far from struggling. My club Hunslet was a CC club last year. I suspect their spending was a few hundred thousand, and maybe I am being generous there.In short they run as a CC club and Leeds run as a SL club. To do so Leeds have to spend £over 5.5Million more than Hunslet.

 

Yet we are going through now literally thousands of posts with people trying to argue that Hunslet should be allowed promotion and Leeds should be demoted should Hunslet top CC and Leeds have a bad season.

 

Is it really "real world" to suggest its as easy as that?

 

In reality Promotion means a club having to find a professional side, a large backroom staff and a few million to pay for them and the facilities to run at professional level. In contrast relegation means losing all your pro-players, sacking staff and cutting costs hand over fist, paying out redundancies etc etc.

 

Then literally only months later when Leeds get promoted and Hunslet are relegated in true yo-yo fashion there's the massive costs and upheaval of the change round all over again, lumped onto both clubs.

 

P & R with a financial gap of £4-£5 million is untenable and dreadfully damaging to our game that can ill afford it. For me a 10 club even SL needs £60,000,00 to break even. I think we could get there.

 

Maybe,,, but Hunslet with that spend will never make it to a promotion into SL place, more likely to have them relegated into a league that all have around whatever their spend is.    Whereas other Championship clubs that have more money to spend will be in those promotion places.  

 

Of course can argue whether those championship clubs may not have sufficient monies to compete in SL.  But being in SL does in itself enable clubs to raise more income. Both commercially and via gates. Although gate money is not the most important, commercial & hospitality plus the TV money are the bigger factors.

 

Plus the potential of promotion can bring in more people prepared to invest in a ambitious club... maybe not... but with possibility of promotion they is more chance of existing owner or new investor to invest more through a transitional period until able to attract the extra commercial and hospitality opportunities whilst also receiving TV monies.  Especially if some drop down payment is made if a club is relegated then even if bounce up an down they may be more able to continue to sustain an improvement.

 

Personally I would prefer a 10 club SL league structure but with P&R.... to and from a 2nd 10 league tier. 

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What I find pathetic Lizzy is that we have a MONEY problem and we are trying to work out a STRUCTURAL solution.

 

There is a large collective opinion outside of Halifax, Dewsbury, Featherstone, Leigh Keighley and Shefield fans who fear being shut out of SL,that P & R has been tried for years and years and it does not address the problem. Many commentators within the game agree P & R is not the solution to a money problem

 

Equally we all agree the game should spend within it’s means. That is a MONEY solution and we nearly ALL agree that works. Superleague has never spent within it’s means hence it’s a darn good idea to examine how it may be able to do this.

The Game as a whole, has never spent within its means, not just the SL era. And its not just a money problem, but management problem, both at club level and the running of the game. The games problems go much deeper than just lack of money. Who has said P & R is a solution to the money problem? Nobody, but as usual you like to misquote people just to make your point. P & R helps keep things fresh and gives people hope that the club they follow can go up. P & R is not a solution to anything and is just something people like to qoute that will make a difference both in a positive and negative way. If you are going to improve the standards of SL or the game, then you need to do something about how clubs/the game is run and set standards for ALL and not just for some. Many people feel upset when they see there club blocked from being in the top League-especially when a number of clubs struggle to survive and function properly and such things are ignored. The way the licences was done has come across as a bit of a joke.  Halifax were classed not good enough for SL in its Licence system (Probably they were not being honest). But surely they was no worse than Crusaders, Wakefield, Salford, London and Bradford who have all been given the term "Good enough for SL", even though they were far from it. Its such things that angers many fans from Fax, Fev, Leigh, etc. The hypocrisy of certain people in the game. No one solution is ever going to improve the standards and running of clubs or bring more money in.A proper review of the whole game and what is reasonable for all needs to be done and then a framework created to help all the clubs move forward and te game be more united. Too many people are only willing to see things from their side and not others.

In reality Promotion means a club having to find a professional side, a large backroom staff and a few million to pay for them and the facilities to run at professional level. In contrast relegation means losing all your pro-players, sacking staff and cutting costs hand over fist, paying out redundancies etc etc.

 

No it doesnt if you have a club that is well run and doesnt think short term. No club has ever lost ALL your pro players as you put. You also dont need to sack staff or pay out redundancies as you claim. Many people and not just in sport have a working contract based on performances and how well the firm/department goes. A number of sportsmen also have "Performance" contracts depending on which League the club is playing in and if the club is relegated or not.

On the other hand if a club has long term goals about where its heading and slowly builds towards that factoring in worst/best case scenarios you dont need to have a massive turnover of staff. If you have a realistic plan in place and dont spend money on players that realistically you cant afford then you dont need to shed loads of jobs as you claim. Having loads of money and a large backroom staff will not guarentee you success or even stop you from being relegated. A club should not just be looking for the next season, but for me the next 5 years and where its going and how it will achieve it within its budgets.

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Do any of you who are in favour of the 10 or even god forbid 8 team leagues have ever expierenced these numbers before, I have both with my amatuer team and when the experiment was done with an 8 team league in the second tier a few years ago. There will still be group vying for the top spots and most definatley a bottom set, its natural selection at work.

Games become vendetta's," I'll get him back this time" attitudes are very evident, you get sick of seeing the same teams, as they say variety is the spice of life.

I would prefer a strong 14 team league with some sort of P & R for 1 club each year, but all things considered I can't see more than a 12 team comp will be in place for 2015.

I have read through all the posts on this topic and there are some very good points expressed by all the main contributors, the pro P & R's, the against, the expansionist's, the leave well aloner's and even those who keep contradicting themselves.

If the guys who are going to make the decisions have opinions as differing as those posted on this site they will have to have been discussing the topic for months already if not already a done thing.

Could anyone please advise when we the fans will be advised what the future holds, keep up the good work guys it is very entertaining, and could I also add very educational.

"If Rugby League had never been Invented, today we would only have Rugby League"

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Most people in business do not believe in a communist state

Rewarding failure is not the solution to the games cash shortage, generating extra income is. Forcing a business to fight for survival and success is why any progressive company exists

This forum has too many folk who have lived off the state for too long, leave the sports future to we expantionists who believe in capitalism as the solution to our income failures

there will always be failure in sport in fact its a necessary, the problem is if you reward success they will get more successful, in the NFL they reward failure and have a vibrant comp with different teams winning each year, carolina panthers were the worst team last year, this year they are one of the best!

I like their system where clubs aren't responsible for player production and the worst team get first pick of the new talent!

Maybe something that the RFL need to look at! For example london wouldn't have struggled to club train players that would have been down to the RFL, london could sign tomkins or whoever as a youth product at no cost they obviously would be better for it! Also the best london talent could end up, up north like now with no cost to the broncos!

This would also benefit championship clubs as they also could pick some talent after the SL clubs!

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Most people in business do not believe in a communist state

Rewarding failure is not the solution to the games cash shortage, generating extra income is. Forcing a business to fight for survival and success is why any progressive company exists

Yet Manu Chelsea etc accept it is the only way to prosper.

You're completely misinterpreting what I am saying, and the using false analogies involving political systems and soccer.

The business that is fighting for survival is professional Rugby league. Let's at least establish that. It's a professional Rugby League also known as "superleague" which underpins the whole game because it attracts a £17,000,000 annual TV contract the game relies VERY heavily on. Look at the nameplate on the office door. I saw it 10 years ago and it says "Superleague Europe Limited" on it.

Look at the value of that TV contract. It wouldn't buy a single player from Manchester United or Chelsea's team. These are not "successful capitalist businesses" at all. These clubs expenditures heavily exceed their incomes. They are the biggest financial failures you will find in the whole country. They only get away with it because their owners are £Billionaires, never mind £Millionaires.

Yes Superleague needs more income I agree and less expenditure. No plan is guaranteed success but ten top clubs (less expenditure, more SKY money each) playing each other (bigger crowds), in ten seperate areas (bigger crowds), working to tight budgetary controls, with mechanisms to prevent any club from collapsing is well worth investigation not dismissing on false analogies.

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Maybe....but Hunslet with that spend will never make it to a promotion into SL place, more likely to have them relegated into a league that all have around whatever their spend is.    Whereas other Championship clubs that have more money to spend will be in those promotion places.  Of course can argue whether those championship clubs may not have sufficient monies to compete in SL.  But being in SL does in itself enable clubs to raise more income.

 

Plus the potential of promotion can bring in more people prepared to invest........

I had to stop you there sorry! How many clubs outside SL do not meet the standard of a £1Million turnover for entry to Superlegue??

I think the answer is just about none of them. So how do they hope to succeed in Superleague???

Mr. Hudgell who has money thought he'd do it by being promoted on 3,000 crowds and take those to 10,000. He did not succeed. Mr. O'Connor who has money thought he'd do it by being promoted via licensing and getting his 3,000 crowds up to 8,000. He did not succeed.

The trap your falling into I believe is the one Keighley has fallen into. He no longer has any suggestions for "standards" for Championship clubs but states the same as you. As long as there's someone rich enough to make up the losses it doesn't matter about standards.

This is why you are unfair on my club who are £5,500,000+ a year off SL standard. If Dr. Koukash had turned up at Hunslet (and our old Chairman Graham Liles was a big racing man BTW) then we would have the same right as Hull.K.R, Widnes, Keighley, Halifax or Leigh to be in SL.

You talk about people "prepared to invest". Mr. Fulton and his board at Castleford have put hundreds of thousands of pounds into the club. Were these investments? What did they invest in and what was the return??

What we are really talking about here John is a Superleague in which P & R will be used to dump rich men who are fed up with making up the losses at their clubs and replace them with other rich men who want to take a turn making up the losses for a while whilst they get fed up.

All the money pumped in will be loaned against every assest it can which is very bad business indeed. Griff posts some very good stuff on this

Edited by The Parksider
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If you are going to improve the standards of SL or the game, then you need to do something about how clubs/the game is run and set standards for ALL and not just for some.

No one solution is ever going to improve the standards and running of clubs or bring more money in. A proper review of the whole game and what is reasonable for all needs to be done and then a framework created to help all the clubs move forward and the game be more united.

Too many people are only willing to see things from their side and not others.

I agree with your last statement Lizzy and I am not having a go at anyone, but the fans of clubs who still have some hope for Superleague (and a floundering Nigel Wood BTW!) are the ones keenest for a magic solution based around P & R. Sport is about dreams, and I can understand that but the game needs money not dreams and P & R does not generate money, it costs clubs money.

Your post was a long one and I welcome that, and you state a fine aim ""you need to do something about how clubs/the game is run and set standards for ALL and not just for some"".

I just don't know what that actually means?

There's only so many RL fans out there, there's only so many professional players, there's only so much TV money, only so many sponsors, any plan must be based on that reality surely??

A "solution for all" sounds great, but how do you get round the fact that one of the biggest incomes the game has is an income that is certainly not for all??

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there will always be failure in sport in fact its a necessary, the problem is if you reward success they will get more successful, in the NFL they reward failure and have a vibrant comp with different teams winning each year, carolina panthers were the worst team last year, this year they are one of the best!

I like their system where clubs aren't responsible for player production and the worst team get first pick of the new talent!

Maybe something that the RFL need to look at! For example london wouldn't have struggled to club train players that would have been down to the RFL, london could sign tomkins or whoever as a youth product at no cost they obviously would be better for it! Also the best london talent could end up, up north like now with no cost to the broncos!

This would also benefit championship clubs as they also could pick some talent after the SL clubs!

I don’t go along with your NFL analogy as it’s a vibrant, high profile, money generator irrespective of the draft system.  However, I do agree with your premise of failure but unfortunately the risk rewards is not balanced enough in RL.

 

Whilst sport is not quite raw commercial business clubs never-the-less it is business all be it a special sort of business arena. Hence I never understand why going into administration is considered such a disaster in the current SL environment, yep a major issue for the sport as an indicator. It ain’t good for the image if too many are faced with it and it is far better that we have none. However going into administration is an opportunity to renew and start again, well it should and could be.

 

The problem is that no harsh sanction awaits the club in reality of whatever the theory, i.e. they seem to be able to keep playing in the same league rather than being sent down a number of leagues. Thus the risk whilst embarrassing and hard to readjust it isn’t one that is enough to make the club consider the risk too high. Plus it stops any ambitious club and one that may subsequent be better run to take it spot.  So the system allows some clubs to not be so worried about its management because at worse it goes into admin, removes its debt and then can continue where it left off, all-be-it with a minor points reduction.  It still keeps its position in SL, able to take advantage of better commercial opportunities it would not have if it dropped out, as well as TV monies that will always make them more commercial secure than the ambitious club that the system stops it being replaced with. 

 

May as well take the risk on continuing with poor management of the club because the worst is...  walk away from debts and stay in the SL. 

Edited by redjonn
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I had to stop you there sorry! How many clubs outside SL do not meet the standard of a £1Million turnover for entry to Superlegue??

I think the answer is just about none of them. So how do they hope to succeed in Superleague???

Mr. Hudgell who has money thought he'd do it by being promoted on 3,000 crowds and take those to 10,000. He did not succeed. Mr. O'Connor who has money thought he'd do it by being promoted via licensing and getting his 3,000 crowds up to 8,000. He did not succeed.

The trap your falling into I believe is the one Keighley has fallen into. He no longer has any suggestions for "standards" for Championship clubs but states the same as you. As long as there's someone rich enough to make up the losses it doesn't matter about standards.

This is why you are unfair on my club who are £5,500,000+ a year off SL standard. If Dr. Koukash had turned up at Hunslet (and our old Chairman Graham Liles was a big racing man BTW) then we would have the same right as Hull.K.R, Widnes, Keighley, Halifax or Leigh to be in SL.

You talk about people "prepared to invest". Mr. Fulton and his board at Castleford have put hundreds of thousands of pounds into the club. Were these investments? What did they invest in and what was the return??

What we are really talking about here John is a Superleague in which P & R will be used to dump rich men who are fed up with making up the losses at their clubs and replace them with other rich men who want to take a turn making up the losses for a while whilst they get fed up.

All the money pumped in will be loaned against every assest it can which is very bad business indeed. Griff posts some very good stuff on this

 

 

Yep you have a point but my other point was that in being in SL or possibility it gives better potential to exploit commercially as per my second paragraph which I repeat:

"Of course can argue whether those championship clubs may not have sufficient monies to compete in SL.  But being in SL does in itself enable clubs to raise more income. Both commercially and via gates. Although gate money is not the most important, commercial & hospitality plus the TV money are the bigger factors."

 

Yes we need standards but ones that are strongly enforced so that a real harsh penalty if club is mismanaged. 

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