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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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So you agree we need more rich men prepared to bankroll clubs up to levels of true superleague operations? Mr. Davey has bankrolled Fartown for over 10 years. He's got them to the top of the table and they are now on a big loss making 6,300 crowd.

What do you think he puts in to make them competitive? £2,000,000 a year?? How much do you think it would take them to make Cas, HKR. London, Widnes, Salford, Wakefield, Bradford competetive??

I'm going to have a stab at £12,000,000 a year. We therefore have a sound business plan which involves a call to the business world for SL to be given £12,000,000 a year by "rich men".

I have to try to find a reason why so many fans of top championship clubs favour a solution that is never going to happen. My thesis with respect is that if you call for a solution that is no solution at all, then whilst we are waiting for that solution Superleague can gently unravel, financial requirements can be heavily downgraded, P & R can come back and it will be 1990 all over again.

I'm not having a go at you, but if fans of London, Keighley, Fev, Leigh, Halifax, Sheffield etc want their clubs to do well, they need SL clubs to do badly. I can understand that a 10 club ring fenced successful SL would be really good for the game as a whole but would also be really good at reducing the six named clubs above to the level of Hunslet, Bramley, Swinton, Oldham, Rochdale and York.

1990, competitive test series, huge gates paying non discounted ticket prices to watch them, half backs and a united sport

Take all those good bits add in an extra £20m of TV and we could have a great sport that may reach its potential

The sport does need an extra £10-20m pa but division and fabricated elite won't achieve it

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Not sure we should operate Superleague based on so many "may's".

 

All Featherstone offer is the promise of a rich man. If they replaced Bradford the game would lose several thousand paying fans to a rich man's debt.

 

It's a business no brainer.

 

Its also a business no brainer not to keep a failing entity at the top table and prevent new challengers a chance to succeed, even if they too subsequent fail - it may suit the protected entity but can stifle the overall sport or in the business analogy you like it stifles the overall economy protecting the individual failed business. . They may well surprise as in business many new comers or challengers prove to be more successful than those old laggards  It shouldn't matter why a club is able finance itself especially given that many SL clubs currently only kept alive by a investor/donor so why shouldn't the same opportunity be afforded to others rather than someone dictating what the market place should look like based upon their own prejudices, bias or old thinking.

 

Its not a business no brainer, yes it may be difficult but others clubs should be afforded the opportunity to better exploit the SL commercial opportunities and TV money than those that are currently failing.   Of course providing minimum standards are met irrespective if their is a risk of an investor changing his desire to invest.  That risk already exists for many in SL.   

Edited by redjonn
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1. 1990, competitive test series, huge gates paying non discounted ticket prices to watch them, half backs and a united sport, Take all those good bits add in an extra £20m of TV and we could have a great sport that may reach its potential

2. The sport does need an extra £10-20m pa but division and fabricated elite won't achieve it

1. An extra £20M of TV money Craiq?

2. What will achieve it then given we aren't going to get any more TV money??

Hey we may do if we had a Superleague of strong clubs that was competitive across the piece?

What's your viable alternative?

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Its also a business no brainer not to keep a failing entity at the top table and prevent new challengers a chance to succeed, even if they too subsequent fail - it may suit the protected entity but can stifle the overall sport or in the business analogy you like it stifles the overall economy protecting the individual failed business. . They may well surprise as in business many new comers or challengers prove to be more successful than those old laggards

Yeh I think that's fair enough in principle but you missed the point I made that Superleague should set up to ensure individual clubs do not fail. We saw something of theis when the Bulls went "pop".

1. The RFL took the lease over for the ground

2. SL clubs agreed not to raid the Bulls plalying roster

3. SL was prepared to buy the club

IMVHO that was signs enough that the top clubs realised they needed each other. (yes I know the NUMPTIES then ruined Bradford by stealing their SKY money) You also missed the point I made that SLE Ltd. should be the individual business that each "section" of the business contributes to and is protected by.

You also missed the point that it is easy to look at the list of Championship clubs and find no new challengers at all in that list.

I make the point that weak clubs propped up by rich owners remain simply weak clubs in debt to rich owners. Caddick may have helped Leeds (already one of the games biggest clubs in 1995) over their difficulties, but he didn't make them a big club.

I'm not sure if Ken Davey finished tonight he would have left Huddersfield as a big club. I'm not sure Salford will be any more futher forward in 10 years time than Huddersfield are now. Why would they be when these people can be as stinky rich as the saudi family but are "salary capped".

Again you maybe should take a close look at the "new challengers", not that I can spot any??

Leigh, Fax (not Fev), and Sheffield are failed SL clubs and beyond that I can't think of a club lower down the Championship that is half as strong as those. The days of expansion clubs are over too. If the "new challenger" you mean is a rich man then as I say wether it'sNahaboo, Davey or Koukash, they can't make weak clubs strong, they can only put them in debt to themselves.

If I could find real growth possible outside the big clubs then I'd champion it. As it stands picking the biggest ten clubs one in each of the biggest ten heartlands is the only way I can see costs being cut and businesses maximised, from which we may get some player, fan and commercial growth. As has been said you have to be in Superleague to get these things.

Which club do you see as a "New Challenger"??

Edited by The Parksider
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1. An extra £20M of TV money Craiq?

2. What will achieve it then given we aren't going to get any more TV money??

Hey we may do if we had a Superleague of strong clubs that was competitive across the piece?

What's your viable alternative?

Why no extrA tv money at the next contract? Between now and then we need to demonstrate a united sport that produces a great product at different levels that is undervalued at present on the sky calculator

Same old same old will not do that, consolidating to a funded ten will no to that- I am a two full time tens for the next 3-6 years, we can fund it and drive the bargaining because of it to become two twelves and vibrant, with four French clubs in the 24

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Why no extrA tv money at the next contract? Between now and then we need to demonstrate a united sport that produces a great product at different levels that is undervalued at present on the sky calculator

Same old same old will not do that, consolidating to a funded ten will no to that- I am a two full time tens for the next 3-6 years, we can fund it and drive the bargaining because of it to become two twelves and vibrant, with four French clubs in the 24

If you can show any evidence for these assertions then go right ahead. I'm all ears.

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

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Or could it be that no one wants to watch a team that has no hope of winning anything under the current structure and as such is a Zombie team making up the numbers. 3x8 gives Cas fans something to cheer later in the season.

why what would cas be winning?
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Why no extrA tv money at the next contract? Between now and then we need to demonstrate a united sport that produces a great product at different levels that is undervalued at present on the sky calculator

Same old same old will not do that, consolidating to a funded ten will no to that- I am a two full time tens for the next 3-6 years, we can fund it and drive the bargaining because of it to become two twelves and vibrant, with four French clubs in the 24

if we cant have 14 full time clubs how can we have 24?

What you say doesnt add up!

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1990, competitive test series, huge gates paying non discounted ticket prices to watch them, half backs and a united sport

Take all those good bits add in an extra £20m of TV and we could have a great sport that may reach its potential

The sport does need an extra £10-20m pa but division and fabricated elite won't achieve it

In 1990 a breakaway super league had already been proposed by the bigger first division clubs

Huge gates? That year the championship came down to the last game of the season a three way split between Warrington Bradford and Wigan. Wigan had to beat Bradford to become champions. I suggest you check out attendances for these clubs, particularly the nail biter at odsal

The sport was in a financial mess, with no regular tv broadcaster except the mockery that had always been the BBC, and of course scrumdown sometime after midnight on Monday morning.

'Divisions' are a fabrication themselves: somebody made them up. They were even changed several times including three divisions not long after 1990.

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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1. An extra £20M of TV money Craiq?

2. What will achieve it then given we aren't going to get any more TV money??

Hey we may do if we had a Superleague of strong clubs that was competitive across the piece?

What's your viable alternative?

Gooday Mr Negativity. Why arn't we going to get any more TV money ? The profile of the game was enhanced massively by the World Cup and I bet Sky now regard it as a mistake that they weren't involved. The profile of the game played at a high level before massive crowds attracting high viewer figures must have resonated with some TV executives somewhere. A revitalised SL with p and r, dumping a failure or two and bringing in ambitious, successful and well financed newcomers might just spark a renaissance and get the game a bigger TV deal.

The BBC must be very happy with the viewing figures for their WC coverage. Sky must have taken note.

There is competition in the market place. BT are now players, the French networks and Toulouse are supposed to bring a TV contract with them. Sky lost some soccer coverage. we should move to fill that blank.

I say we could do worse than to appoint Sally Bolton head of TV contract negotiations and let her see what we can get from the networks and cable outlets before she is headhunted to other ventures.

In any event , I don't think it's a given that any future TV deals won't increase or add to our TV revenue.

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In 1990 a breakaway super league had already been proposed by the bigger first division clubs

Huge gates? That year the championship came down to the last game of the season a three way split between Warrington Bradford and Wigan. Wigan had to beat Bradford to become champions. I suggest you check out attendances for these clubs, particularly the nail biter at odsal

The sport was in a financial mess, with no regular tv broadcaster except the mockery that had always been the BBC, and of course scrumdown sometime after midnight on Monday morning.

'Divisions' are a fabrication themselves: somebody made them up. They were even changed several times including three divisions not long after 1990.

Sorry pal 1990 was a fictional date it could have been 91 or 92 etc must get my rothmans out to compete you lot

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Been away a couple of days, just read the last 6 pages and one thing is very clear ,Everyone wants to see league prosper , we just see different ways of doing it.

 

Iv'e found myself agreeing with certain bits of Posts from almost every poster at some stage, It's evident that some people disguise what they want for their club as being something the game needs to do to go forward, but that's natural enough,  and indeed my own arguments could be said to be coloured by my wanting to see the best the game has to offer.

 

I do believe in saying things as i see them in reality rather than what might happen, or maybe this will come about.

 

I see RL in todays world as a business, like any other, Yes it does invoke passions and such, that selling  Parsnips or whatever doesn't,  The other thing that is different ( I don't know this for sure ) but i don't think many of the owners pumping money into their clubs expect to make a profit in the sense someone selling Veg would.

 

For eg , I would say K Davy would be over the moon to get the Giants to a state of self sufficiency, and yet when you hear him speak, He gives every impression he is there for the long haul, The club as far as i know is going forward off the field as well as being competitive on it,

 

The reason i am speaking about the Giants is because they have climbed from rock bottom to winning the league, This shows that it can be done ( as many people say the smaller clubs can do )  Now the fly in the ointment for me is, If K D had not created the sort of organisation off the field as well as the team on it, would the Giants be where they are,  Or where they were. to me thats easy , they would almost certainly be gone, and It's taken many years besides the money to get them where they are.

 

Now what i want to know ( and i keep asking is  ) who from the championship can do the same, I am not interested in what might happen if this was done or that came about. Or comparisons with soccer, ( they are worthless )

 People talk about they can run their clubs responsibly, and live within their means and so forth, But to me that is perfectly reasonable in the Championship, SL is a whole different ball game, Unless they get a man who has the money to do the job, Or can pull in very large crowds, they are going to be the whipping boys of SL, And i have been there , and it's not good.

 

So we have to have a structure cobbled together to stop these clubs from being whipping boys, That sounds fine , but what is the cost going to be, It may well suit the ambitious few clubs ( who think they can make it ) but what about the effect on the very top end of clubs.

 

There have been some very strong arguments that we will very soon have a 8 club SL, (Parky ) with a stronger that Championship second 8, But is there any evidence that Sky will have any interest in the second level at all, And will a 8 team elite meet their requirements.

 

I have to agree with Parky that the Games biggest headache is shortage of money, yet all the effort seems to be about continually changing formats , In the hope that something will cure that.

 

Looking at it as a business rather than a sport is what is required by Owners, leave looking at it as a sport to the Fans, The more money a club has the more successful it will be , the less money then less success, And if it is short enough, Then It's down the pan,

 

 

Anyone who underestimates the importance of Money in any organisation, or more importantly people with money, know little about business, This idea that 3x8 will revitalise clubs and swell their fan base to numbers they have never been, sounds great , but i just don't see it working. 

 

I know it could work if this was done , If that happened,  should this come about.  All i can say is why wasn't it happening before SL, all were on level playing field then , Why did Wigan win everything year on year till it became monotonous,  Because they saw where the game needed to go before anyone else did and they became full time Pro.

 

I want to put  a scenario, suppose ( god forbid )  it suddenly emerged that  wigan, Leeds, Saints, Warrington, Hull, or Fev ( were they in SL ) had been seriously mismanaged in the way that Bradford have, Should we  ( as some would argue )  Penalise them heavily (as Bradford have been ) and relegate them,  Which in reality is penalising , and in all probability losing the fans ( in big numbers  in most cases ),  and promote a club who will do very well to survive, or do we find a way to save the club in the greater interest of the game, ( something a lot of posters on here claim to have at heart.

 

I can only repeat what i have said before If this new format comes in , So be it , It will soon sort out the ones who can produce, Whether it will have done the game any good could be another matter 

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It's evident that some people disguise what they want for their club as being something the game needs to do to go forward.....

 

 

When in fact these suggestions would take it backwards. Still they are better than the predictions of £Millions more TV money around the corner, or Rich men turning up in droves.

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When in fact these suggestions would take it backwards. Still they are better than the predictions of £Millions more TV money around the corner, or Rich men turning up in droves.

The poster you were responding to here is Giants fan and they are the prototype of a club who were being given the last rites when, hey presto a Rich man turned up.

The latest example of this is Salford.

Given the viewing figures for SL. Given the success of the WC, both on the field and on TV, given the promises of Toulouse that they have a TV deal lined up. Given Premier sports are till interested in the Championship. Given that BT are new players in the TV wars and might be interested. How you can be so rock solid sure that there is no avenue for increased TV money.

Vilify those views if you want to prop up your doom and gloom outlook but you do not know if there is more TV money to be had. I have not predicted that there are millions more out there for the game, I have just given a few reasons why it might be probable.

You, on the otherhand, make a statement that there is categorically no more TV money to be had as if you had been given that information from a soothsayer. Methinks you want it to be a self fulfilling prophecy based on your wishes to prove a point. No more, no less.

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Its also a business no brainer not to keep a failing entity at the top table and prevent new challengers a chance to succeed, even if they too subsequent fail - it may suit the protected entity but can stifle the overall sport or in the business analogy you like it stifles the overall economy protecting the individual failed business. . They may well surprise as in business many new comers or challengers prove to be more successful than those old laggards  It shouldn't matter why a club is able finance itself especially given that many SL clubs currently only kept alive by a investor/donor so why shouldn't the same opportunity be afforded to others rather than someone dictating what the market place should look like based upon their own prejudices, bias or old thinking.

 

Its not a business no brainer, yes it may be difficult but others clubs should be afforded the opportunity to better exploit the SL commercial opportunities and TV money than those that are currently failing.   Of course providing minimum standards are met irrespective if their is a risk of an investor changing his desire to invest.  That risk already exists for many in SL.   

 

You are not protecting the individual club, you are protecting the games customers.

 

No other business would ever risk throwing a large portion of its customer base in the waste basket in the vain hope that a new product would be a hit and replace the lost customers instantly.

 

Its madness.

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You are not protecting the individual club, you are protecting the games customers.

 

No other business would ever risk throwing a large portion of its customer base in the waste basket in the vain hope that a new product would be a hit and replace the lost customers instantly.

 

Its madness.

But on the other hand Padge we're quite happy to have London, Catalan and Toulouse in SL when any one of Fax, Fev or Leigh would provide a level of customers at away games far greater than all three of the aforementioned clubs put together. Is that good business or is it madness?

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But on the other hand Padge we're quite happy to have London, Catalan and Toulouse in SL when any one of Fax, Fev or Leigh would provide a level of customers at away games far greater than all three of the aforementioned clubs put together. Is that good business or is it madness?

what does away support have to do with being a successful club?

Why do RL fans constantly bang on about how many away fans will turn up ?!?!

If a clubs business model is to play against teams and hope the other sides fans will turn up that is what's madness!

Should we push season tickets in schools this year??? Err no lets just hope a lot of away fans turn up!

it is false growth and using the current fans as cash cows....only to moan when at the end of the season the same fans have no money left to attend play offs/ cup games!

Edited by yipyee
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How you can be so rock solid sure that there is no avenue for increased TV money.

 

 

"Rock solid sure" is a term you made up. I do not discount.....

 

1. Rich cavalry coming over the hill to save all clubs

2. Massive attendances in the second 8 play off

 

I'm working on two things. likelihood,and a very informative thread where a gentleman outlined the decline in TV money for RL 1996 to date. Some of that decline was where our deal stood still whilst more progressive sports got more. I would welcome a reference to that thread anyone. I'd welcome you going on receive and not transmit all the time.

 

One simple principle you may think about whilst a kind person may reference which thread it was, is that SKY want an elite top class league. I'm suggesting we give them that. Very simple plan.

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But on the other hand Padge we're quite happy to have London, Catalan and Toulouse in SL when any one of Fax, Fev or Leigh would provide a level of customers at away games far greater than all three of the aforementioned clubs put together. Is that good business or is it madness?

 

You probably won't have London for long Terry, but you raise the question of Catalans and Toulouse.

 

Catalans crowds have been up to 8-9,000. I think they hope for more for Toulouse in the big city.

 

Halifax managed 5,651 for a third place finish in SL, Leigh were 4,750 for SL 2005, but now their fan base is by their clubs own admission "ageing" and has dropped to 1,556 despite their decent placing year on year. We have discussed Featherstone who may be good for a 5,000 average.

 

Widnes went up with money and a 3,700 fan base, In SL that only rose to 6,000 and you should look carefully at that good Sir.

 

On the actual figures Les Catalan's crowds on average were better than Widnes.v.Wigan, Widnes.v.Leeds, and Widnes.v.Hull

 

You should look at how many "away" fans actually travel and not assume. The level of away fans from big SL clubs tends to be low for their journeys to small SL clubs. Salford at Barton first year and Widnes in SL this last two years for instance suffered from the big SL clubs fans not turning up in the numbers they had hoped for.

 

I can do you more figures, but you need to be careful with you argument because Featherstone may not be taking that many fans to away games themselves once in SL

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