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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

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Its quite clear that anyone who champions P&R clearly have no conception of modern sport!

Comparing RL to promotion in soccer is laughable!

Some people need to take the blinkers off!

So are you saying that Premier league soccer is not a successful, modern sport ? Are you saying that top tier RU is not a modern sport despite in the past having neither leagues or p and r but now they think that's the way to go.?

So despite such teams as Bradford City, Barnsley, Blackpool, QPR, Wigan, Charlton, Portsmouth and Hull City being allowed elevation to the premier League via p and r without the Premier League World ending, that we can't do that in RL because it's laughable.

I'll tell what's laughable, the thought that if Everton went bankrupt twice in three years with plunging crowds and playing in their old outdated stadium, that they wouldn't have been demoted by the governing body.

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So are you saying that Premier league soccer is not a successful, modern sport ? Are you saying that top tier RU is not a modern sport despite in the past having neither leagues or p and r but now they think that's the way to go.?

So despite such teams as Bradford City, Barnsley, Blackpool, QPR, Wigan, Charlton, Portsmouth and Hull City being allowed elevation to the premier League via p and r without the Premier League World ending, that we can't do that in RL because it's laughable.

I'll tell what's laughable, the thought that if Everton went bankrupt twice in three years with plunging crowds and playing in their old outdated stadium, that they wouldn't have been demoted by the governing body.

sorry I should have pointed out P&R between pros and amateur set ups....

why pick everton? Several clubs have got bankrupt and you have listed a fair few!! Portsmouth didnt get demoted just a points deduction and early tv payments, leeds got a points deduction etc......

Soccer promotes a multi million pound club in place of another, its laughable that in RL you want to replace a multi million pound club with a club that cant even turn over 1 million! Its painful you are embarrassing yourself pretending this isnt the case after much evidence to support otherwise!

What has RU got to do with it?

Edited by yipyee

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The Widnes/Warrington scenario is the same as the Keighley/Bradford scanario.

You set that out quite well. Don't fall over yourself to disagree with me.

You are scrambling now. Are you of the opinion that Keighley, a lower CC team affect Bradford's attendances and take players that would be better off at Odsal.

I wish it were so. Even at the height of Cougarmania the club was no threat to Bradford except in Caisley's mind.

Plus Keighley and Bradford are not neighbours in the same way as the Hulls and the Cheshire duo are. There has been a whole thread on that with chapter and verse as to why not.

But the question was " What is the difference between the HULL/Hull KR scenario and the Widnes/ Warrington scenario and how can you champion one solution for the one and the opposite solution for the other"?

You either live by the merger argument or you don't. you want it both ways and when questioned introduce a third scenario which is not relevant. So irrelevant, in fact, that even the Lord God Lindsay, the high priest of mergers, didn't suggest it.

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sorry I should have pointed out P&R between pros and amateur set ups....

why pick everton? Several clubs have got bankrupt and you have listed a fair few!! Portsmouth didnt get demoted just a points deduction and early tv payments, leeds got a points deduction etc......

Soccer promotes a multi million pound club in place of another, its laughable that in RL you want to replace a multi million pound club with a club that cant even turn over 1 million! Its painful you are embarrassing yourself pretending this isnt the case after much evidence to support otherwise!

What has RU got to do with it?

[/quote

If London get demoted and Featherstone get promoted in their place, or if Halifax replace Bradford, I think SL would be stronger in terms of financial stability, decent grounds and junior amateur teams in the area. I think the management teams at both promoted teams are much stronger than at the demoted teams. There may or may not be a trade off in terms of less bums on seats but not by much given London's abysmal performance in that area and Bradford's 50% reduction in crowds in the last few years which, if history is any guide, will continue to fall.

RU is a modern sport with p and r. weren't you referencing that as outdated or laughable ?

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Its quite clear that anyone who champions P&R clearly have no conception of modern sport!

Comparing RL to promotion in soccer is laughable!

Some people need to take the blinkers off!

So clear that not one single person can clearly tell us why...

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sorry I should have pointed out P&R between pros and amateur set ups....

why pick everton? Several clubs have got bankrupt and you have listed a fair few!! Portsmouth didnt get demoted just a points deduction and early tv payments, leeds got a points deduction etc......

Soccer promotes a multi million pound club in place of another, its laughable that in RL you want to replace a multi million pound club with a club that cant even turn over 1 million! Its painful you are embarrassing yourself pretending this isnt the case after much evidence to support otherwise!

What has RU got to do with it?

A much closer comparison would be the promotion of a team from the Football conference to League two. The step is comparable with the step from the RL championship to SL. Clubs in league two get around a million pound from the FA and the Conference team doesn't.

That seems to work ok doesn't it?

Edited by a.n Other

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There seems to be a lot of talk about mergers all the time, I have mentioned Mergers from time to time, But i have never suggested they could be forced on clubs, I think they would be desirable and could promote a truly Elite SL, That said the overwhelming majority of posters have made it clear that it is never going to happen.

 

 So the alternative for me ,Or at least what i would like to see happen is that SL takes control of it's own game, All the fans  ( or most of them ) on here talking about upping the Sky money ( as thought it were a mere formality ) are clubs Fans who don't get much of it now and would like a lot more.

 

I have read all the arguments on here about how this could happen and that could happen, I haven't read one single argument that has convinced me that 1 single club from the Championship can make the grade in SL, Unless they get a huge amount of money from somewhere they will almost certainly fail. That's not doom mongering, It's saying what will most likely happen.

 

I have read how they may be able to grow their Fan base , If this or that is given a chance,  Not one thing written has has said they will enhance the Elite comp, they have said they could in years to come, and they could make the middle 8 ( which pertains to them) very competitive  with teams at their level.  How having very competitive local derbies does anything at all to make the Elite comp and better i fail to see.

 

I can see how it would be very good for some clubs, But how does it do anything at all for the top comp

 

The time when sport could run on a shoestring is gone. Just to survive  £3.5 million, What CC has got that kind of money, because any one promoted without it will be Cannon fodder.

 

If we want to go back to the days of all clubs being equal, and being satisfied with it being a game just for Y/L where you could get to most games without much trouble, and your best games were always against your Neighbours, A real community game so to speak.   Well i say let the Championship get on with it, nothing standing in the way of them getting it back to where it once was,  Get a TV contract BT sport whoever , why do they even need  SL .

 

I hope the SL chairmen take a very strong stance, somone needs to push the game forward.


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A much closer comparison would be the promotion of a team from the Football conference to League two. The step is comparable with the step from the RL championship to SL. Clubs in league two get around a million pound from the FA and the Conference team doesn't.

That seems to work ok doesn't it?

There is no comparison

For a start have you seen the geographical spread of both the conference and league two?


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The fans were attracted to the world Cup for the spectacle of international RL both elite and not so elite. The massive attendances were for Australia, New Zealand and England games, the elite and the pretty damn good attendances were for the not so elite of Scotland, France, Cook Islands, Ireland,Wales, USA, Tonga and Samoa.

These attendances were at such places as Workington, twice, Leigh, Rochdale, Halifax and Bristol. That would seem to indicate go me that maybe there is a market for elite teams at any of these locations. Now it is up to the RL to re introduce p and r and we will see if any of those missing and new supporters would flock to these areas if the Championship teams there can develop and get promoted to the top tier.,

 

You are making the mistake of thinking that when Leigh sports village, and other places, sold out, that the only people there were from Leigh.

 

A high percentage of supporters would be Wigan, Saints, Warrington, and Widnes supporters, to name just the SL clubs. The real places to note were Cumbria and Bristol that don't have a lot of other supporters on the doorstep. 

 

You may as well claim that the attendance at Wembley proves that London could support 8 SL clubs with 10,000 supporters each.


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The fans were attracted to the world Cup.

These attendances were at such places as Workington, Leigh, Halifax, Rochdale that would seem to indicate go me that maybe there is a market for elite teams at any of these locations.

 

Workington 2,322 In Superleague

 

Leigh 4,750 in Superleague

 

Halifax from 5,712 down to 2,977 in Superleague

 

Rochdale 2,542 in Division One many years ago.

 

Average in top flight 3,489.

 

Current average 1,154

Edited by The Parksider

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what does away support have to do with being a successful club?

Why do RL fans constantly bang on about how many away fans will turn up ?!?!

If a clubs business model is to play against teams and hope the other sides fans will turn up that is what's madness!

!

Try telling that to the people who have to pay the wages. To suggest that clubs shouldn't need to take £20 per head generated by hundreds, even thousands of away fans into account is ludicrous.

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Try telling that to the people who have to pay the wages. To suggest that clubs shouldn't need to take £20 per head generated by hundreds, even thousands of away fans into account is ludicrous.

 

Exactly Terry - Why do the rest of Super League Clubs want Bradford to remain in SL (To the point of running the club if necessary) if it isn't to get a slice of that "20,000" crowd when playing Bradford at home ?


Lets not forget, Featherstone Rovers is a RUGBY club.

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Try telling that to the people who have to pay the wages. To suggest that clubs shouldn't need to take £20 per head generated by hundreds, even thousands of away fans into account is ludicrous.

 

Away support should never be part of the business plan, away support is a bonus not a guaranteed.

 

To think you can base your forecasts on who will be visiting your ground is ludicrous. The amount of away support is totally out of control of the club, home support can be hard to predict but away support should never enter into it.

 

If a clubs financial soundness relies on away support turning up in numbers then they are in trouble before they even start.


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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sorry I should have pointed out P&R between pros and amateur set ups....

why pick everton? Several clubs have got bankrupt and you have listed a fair few!! Portsmouth didnt get demoted just a points deduction and early tv payments, leeds got a points deduction etc......

Soccer promotes a multi million pound club in place of another, its laughable that in RL you want to replace a multi million pound club with a club that cant even turn over 1 million! Its painful you are embarrassing yourself pretending this isnt the case after much evidence to support otherwise!

What has RU got to do with it?

[/quote

If London get demoted and Featherstone get promoted in their place, or if Halifax replace Bradford, I think SL would be stronger in terms of financial stability, decent grounds and junior amateur teams in the area. I think the management teams at both promoted teams are much stronger than at the demoted teams. There may or may not be a trade off in terms of less bums on seats but not by much given London's abysmal performance in that area and Bradford's 50% reduction in crowds in the last few years which, if history is any guide, will continue to fall.

RU is a modern sport with p and r. weren't you referencing that as outdated or laughable ?

again you want to replace multi million pound clubs with thripny bit clubs with only one farthing!

THE laughable thing is because soccer has P&R then everyone must no matter how!

The jury is still out on union. .....but we can't discuss that here, I think you are trying to take me off on a tangent as you are ignoring the FACT soccer replaces multi million pound club with a multi million pound club, RL cannot do this and for that reason that model cannot work until the championship clubs become multi million pound clubs.....

Please embrace that there is no longer a level playing field on and off the park, we now have three distinct types of clubs.....back in the day you had pro and amateur with no P&R between the two, we now have 3 or poss 4 distinct layers, there is a gulf between each layer,

what's interesting is that you champion P&R yet I have never seen a post by your good self saying how it was an injustice that thatto heath won the league and couldn't get promoted. .....

Edited by yipyee

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From a financial perspective there is.

You must be joking

League two and the conference are part if the mid lower echelons of the two wealthiest most powerful sporting organisations in the world...the football league fir league two and the football association for the conference

 

Super league and the championship are the top two competitions in a cash poor heavily rationalized sport that isn't even the strongest sport in its so called heartlands

 

The challenges and structures financially and in any other aspect of running running pro rugby league are completely different and are totally peculiar to rugby league


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Exactly Terry - Why do the rest of Super League Clubs want Bradford to remain in SL (To the point of running the club if necessary) if it isn't to get a slice of that "20,000" crowd when playing Bradford at home ?

Because Bradford are a major club

They can be, have been, and more than likely will be a long term force in the competition. Even in a bad season they can attract attendances and perform on the pitch to a level that your club could only dream of

As well as this they have massive potential for growth

Bradford 2013 season horribilis would have been a major if not unattainable achievement for your club


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So clear that not one single person can clearly tell us why...

Soccer is what people turn to when P&R is championed sky do a good job of papering over the cracks of that creaking behemoth!

The clubs struggling to survive below the PL is forgotten about. .....how much press has bolton got? Made 50mill loss last year now around 136mill in debt,

that is ONE club, they lost in one year as much as 13SL clubs (minus london) combined cumulative total debt! But hey lets follw that model into oblivion!

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You are making the mistake of thinking that when Leigh sports village, and other places, sold out, that the only people there were from Leigh.

 

A high percentage of supporters would be Wigan, Saints, Warrington, and Widnes supporters, to name just the SL clubs. The real places to note were Cumbria and Bristol that don't have a lot of other supporters on the doorstep. 

 

You may as well claim that the attendance at Wembley proves that London could support 8 SL clubs with 10,000 supporters each.

No, I am not making that mistake. There is, however, a post on the Leigh forum on RL fans where someone took 6 non RL supporters to the WC game at Leigh and now two of them are going to buy Leigh season tickets.

I was at both Cumbria and Bristol and there were all sorts of people there at both games from around the UK and Australia and even France. There were also a lot of Cumbrians seated around me at Workington and many Rochdale based Fijians at Spotland. At Wrexham, I was seated by a family of Crusaders supporters at both games and another person I spoke to said he was a Welsh RU supporter and this was his first RL game and he found it very exciting and he would check out future Crusader games.

I realise this is all anecdotal but, of these anecdotes are replicated in any numbers, I think the spill off effects from the World Cup games could be considerable. I think the claim that all these extra supporters were SL fans is off the mark. Some were and many weren't. The poor attendances at Hull KR and Salford would seem to indicate that SL supporters weren't always so numerous.

If 50% of the crowds at these venues were from the host cities, then that's a decent total to work on and may result in increased attendances for these clubs. If this results and p and r is revived I think attendances at some Championship venue could receive a boost. Of course some SL venues coukd get he same boost from the WC. I certainly hope both leagues benefit.

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Try telling that to the people who have to pay the wages. To suggest that clubs shouldn't need to take £20 per head generated by hundreds, even thousands of away fans into account is ludicrous.

so catalan can get 8500 x 20 a head 170000...

Or Leigh can hope 2000 away fans can add to their 1500

So 3500x20 a head 70000.....

Eeerrrmmm no degree needed sod the away fans catalan model all the way! !!

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Workington 2,322 In Superleague

 

Leigh 4,750 in Superleague

 

Halifax from 5,712 down to 2,977 in Superleague

 

Rochdale 2,542 in Division One many years ago.

 

Average in top flight 3,489.

 

Current average 1,154

Lies, damn lies and statistics. I can't be bothered but I know if I look it up, I can come up with 8,000 for Workington in their hayday, Halifax in the 6,000 range and Leigh near to that in the Div 1 winning season. I can even find Oldham at 10,000 and Hunslet at 4,000. I can quote an attendance of above 10,000 for a Div 2 fixture an d one of 3,500 for a division three fixture and 4,500 for a Highfield game.

I can also find Bradford at less than 1,000, Leeds at 6,000, Huddersfield at less than 1,000, London at 500, Hull KR at 1500 and Swinton at 6,000.

AS I said, lies , damn lies and statistics.

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No, I am not making that mistake. There is, however, a post on the Leigh forum on RL fans where someone took 6 non RL supporters to the WC game at Leigh and now two of them are going to buy Leigh season tickets.

I was at both Cumbria and Bristol and there were all sorts of people there at both games from around the UK and Australia and even France. There were also a lot of Cumbrians seated around me at Workington and many Rochdale based Fijians at Spotland. At Wrexham, I was seated by a family of Crusaders supporters at both games and another person I spoke to said he was a Welsh RU supporter and this was his first RL game and he found it very exciting and he would check out future Crusader games.

I realise this is all anecdotal but, of these anecdotes are replicated in any numbers, I think the spill off effects from the World Cup games could be considerable. I think the claim that all these extra supporters were SL fans is off the mark. Some were and many weren't. The poor attendances at Hull KR and Salford would seem to indicate that SL supporters weren't always so numerous.

If 50% of the crowds at these venues were from the host cities, then that's a decent total to work on and may result in increased attendances for these clubs. If this results and p and r is revived I think attendances at some Championship venue could receive a boost. Of course some SL venues coukd get he same boost from the WC. I certainly hope both leagues benefit.

 

My money would be on at Bristol and Cumbria the majority were local, i.e within 30 miles, same at Leigh, unfortunately at Leigh that thirty mile includes the afore mentioned clubs.

 

You cannot extrapolte in any way shape or form the attendance in Leigh to a full house every week at Leogh, no more than the GB v France game at Wigan means Wigan can get 25k into the DW for every game. You live in a fanciful world.


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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again you want to replace multi million pound clubs with thripny bit clubs with only one farthing!

THE laughable thing is because soccer has P&R then everyone must no matter how!

The jury is still out on union. .....but we can't discuss that here, I think you are trying to take me off on a tangent as you are ignoring the FACT soccer replaces multi million pound club with a multi million pound club, RL cannot do this and for that reason that model cannot work until the championship clubs become multi million pound clubs.....

Please embrace that there is no longer a level playing field on and off the park, we now have three distinct types of clubs.....back in the day you had pro and amateur with no P&R between the two, we now have 3 or poss 4 distinct layers, there is a gulf between each layer,

what's interesting is that you champion P&R yet I have never seen a post by your good self saying how it was an injustice that thatto heath won the league and couldn't get promoted. .....

How many multi million pound clubs does RL have. certainly not Bradford, Wakefield, Castleford or London.

Thatto Heath ? I have no idea what you are talking about. have they ever been a member of the professional rankjs of the RFL ?

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