The steam locomotive thread

[Trojan]

Pulled by one of their blinkin' diesels on the train to Dungeness!  But, no matter, got chance to see a few in action in and around New Romney.  Here's good old Winston Churchill:

 

Winston Churchill by Jon Smalldon, on Flickr

 

TBH I'd rather see, smell and hear than be on a train pulled by one, when you may as well be pulled by diesel or electric. Of course if everyone thought like me there'd be no steam specials and nothing for me to watch! Great picture

[gingerjon]

TBH I'd rather see, smell and hear than be on a train pulled by one, when you may as well be pulled by diesel or electric. Of course if everyone thought like me there'd be no steam specials and nothing for me to watch! Great picture

 

Thanks.  My first memories of the RHDR are as you say - being dragged by my dad to watch and take pictures of the trains but never actually travel on one!

[Trojan]

I knew there was a thread somewhere.  Someone remarked the other day that seeing steam locos on preserved lines like the KWVR is ok, (and if it wasn't for the preserved lines there possibly wouldn't be any steam locos left)  but seeing them on the main line at speed is miles better.  They said it's like seeing an animal in a zoo as opposed to seeing it in the wild. Pretty good analogy I thought.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

the tracks that preserved steam locomotives run on were part of the rail system at one time. For instance if you travel on the Keighley Worth valley Railway you are travelling on an actual branch line. If you travel on the Middleton railway you are travelling on an actual industrial railway: the oldest railway in the world. The North York Moors Railway is 18 miles long and takes in some dramatic scenery along a genuine piece of infrastructure, same with the Strathspey Railway. The locomotives are in their natural environment, doing real jobs. And they are railway locomotives-machines, not wild animals taken from their natural environment. Steam locomotives are obsolete pieces of industrial equipment that people have kept in service on preserved lines so that people can appreciate their power and beauty. They run on real railways. Wild animals in zoos are living creatures bred outside their natural environment, living outside their natural environment, purely for people to look at. 

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Pulled by one of their blinkin' diesels on the train to Dungeness!  But, no matter, got chance to see a few in action in and around New Romney.  Here's good old Winston Churchill:

 

Winston Churchill by Jon Smalldon, on Flickr

the smoke and steam don't look right.

but this is a cracking photo creating a sense of scale that makes the loco and it's train look 'full size' as it were.

[Griff9of13]

the tracks that preserved steam locomotives run on were part of the rail system at one time. For instance if you travel on the Keighley Worth valley Railway you are travelling on an actual branch line. If you travel on the Middleton railway you are travelling on an actual industrial railway: the oldest railway in the world. The North York Moors Railway is 18 miles long and takes in some dramatic scenery along a genuine piece of infrastructure, same with the Strathspey Railway. The locomotives are in their natural environment, doing real jobs. And they are railway locomotives-machines, not wild animals taken from their natural environment. Steam locomotives are obsolete pieces of industrial equipment that people have kept in service on preserved lines so that people can appreciate their power and beauty. They run on real railways. Wild animals in zoos are living creatures bred outside their natural environment, living outside their natural environment, purely for people to look at. 

 

To be slightly pedantic; large express locomotives would rarely, if ever, be found working on branch lines. And the severe speed restrictions in place on preserved railway branch lines (25mph max, AFAIR) does these larger machines a great disservice IMO.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

To be slightly pedantic; large express locomotives would rarely, if ever, be found working on branch lines. And the severe speed restrictions in place on preserved railway branch lines (25mph max, AFAIR) does these larger machines a great disservice IMO.

You make a good point

But these locomotives still exist and are cherished. They weren't scrapped .Some have been even improved: for instance the duke of Gloucester's draughting problems that limited its career were solved post preservation. Some main lines lend themselves to use by large passenger locomotives, the classic being the settle or rather leeds to Carlisle. My point is that the zoo analogy is inept. Also preserved lines give an authentic impression, and that not all railway preservation is about express passenger locomotives.

[Futtocks]

the tracks that preserved steam locomotives run on were part of the rail system at one time. For instance if you travel on the Keighley Worth valley Railway you are travelling on an actual branch line. If you travel on the Middleton railway you are travelling on an actual industrial railway: the oldest railway in the world. The North York Moors Railway is 18 miles long and takes in some dramatic scenery along a genuine piece of infrastructure, same with the Strathspey Railway. The locomotives are in their natural environment, doing real jobs. And they are railway locomotives-machines, not wild animals taken from their natural environment. Steam locomotives are obsolete pieces of industrial equipment that people have kept in service on preserved lines so that people can appreciate their power and beauty. They run on real railways. Wild animals in zoos are living creatures bred outside their natural environment, living outside their natural environment, purely for people to look at. 

The North York Moors railway now has some services that go as far as Whitby. A nice way to go to the seaside.

[Trojan]

Y

To be slightly pedantic; large express locomotives would rarely, if ever, be found working on branch lines. And the severe speed restrictions in place on preserved railway branch lines (25mph max, AFAIR) does these larger machines a great disservice IMO.

Yes that's exactly the point, Sir Nigel Gresley runs on the NYMR at 25 mph. Here it is at speed in April 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4i-ZmOeU6Y

or here's Princess Coronation class Duchess of Sutherland on the West Coast Main Line

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifYDLi1yqT0

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Yes that's exactly the point, Sir Nigel Gresley runs on the NYMR at 25 mph. Here it is at speed in April 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4i-ZmOeU6Y

or here's Princess Coronation class Duchess of Sutherland on the West Coast Main Line

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifYDLi1yqT0

it makes no difference

the analogy with animals in a zoo is ridiculous.

[Padge]

A few pics here may suit the steam buffs, a little diesel thrown in. 

 

Dartmouth

 

Bodmin

[Trojan]

A few pics here may suit the steam buffs, a little diesel thrown in. 

 

Dartmouth

 

Bodmin

The Dartmouth one is pretty good Dave.  I went on it last year, boat from Dartmouth up the Dart to Totnes, bus to Paignton, and then train back to Dartmouith, it was a good day out.

[Trojan]

it makes no difference

the analogy with animals in a zoo is ridiculous.

But zoos preserved endangered species, as do preserved railways, you can see these species in zoos, but not in their natural habitats, like preserved railways (NYMR is not the natural habitat of Sir Nigel Gresley)   There was an item on TV at the weekend, two lions were attacking a buffalo, the buffalo herd turned on the lion and saved their fellow animal, you could never see that in a zoo.  It may be an inexact analogy, but it'll do for me,

[Trojan]

On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2013 at 21:11, l'angelo mysterioso said:

Other locomotives as well to be fair

I'm interested in the work and contribution of the much maligned Edward Thompson

But steam and other livid and railway topics in general

I think I may have done Thomson a disservice.  His B1 is arguably the best British mixed traffic loco ever built, you could argue that the Black 5 is better, it's a tossup for me.  The B1 was ubiquitous on its system like the Black 5.  Both supreme examples of British engineering.

However, that's not why I dug up thread after such a long hibernation.

As anyone reading this thread will recognise, I'm a bit of a steam buff.  I like to see them live, but I also watch them on YouTube.  Something I've noticed is that the preserved much revered GWR express locos, with their copper bound funnels and brass mounted safety valves,  Their ornate number and nameplates.  These locos, this system that even after nationalisation were excused from looking like the rest of the BR fleet,  is that they seldom appear on steam specials with more than ten coaches, whereas the representatives of the other British railways, plus the representatives of BR itself, are seldom seen with less that eleven. Sometimes twelve, even thirteen.  On paper the Kings were more powerful than most express passengers locos, and the equal of the Princesses, Princess Coronations, Peppercorn A2s, and the single Duke of Gloucester class.

I've seen Black 5's, on paper 35% less powerful than the Kings waltz up the infamous Miles Platting Bank in Manchester with ten or eleven coaches on, from a standing start at Manchester Victoria, where the King has occasionally nearly been brought to a halt.  I wonder where this favouritism among British steam buffs came from?

[Bearman]

I have just binge watched the "The Yorkshire Steam Railway" currently airing and on catch up on Channel5.

There are some seriously clever guys working on restoring the loco's. The 9F they rebuilt is a thing of beauty

I spent most of my working life on Aero and Marine Gas Turbines but the complexity of a steam locomotive is mind blowing for me.

 

[M j M]

Sorry to interrupt the kettle discussion. Over in France the first production TGV is about to enter full retirement and they've decked the power cars out in original orange livery to celebrate.

 

[Bedford Roughyed]

The Union of South Africa went bombing up the Midland Mainline this morning, great to see and hear some of them being allowed to open their legs as it were.  

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

On 07/03/2020 at 16:55, Trojan said:

I think I may have done Thomson a disservice.  His B1 is arguably the best British mixed traffic loco ever built, you could argue that the Black 5 is better, it's a tossup for me.  The B1 was ubiquitous on its system like the Black 5.  Both supreme examples of British engineering.

However, that's not why I dug up thread after such a long hibernation.

As anyone reading this thread will recognise, I'm a bit of a steam buff.  I like to see them live, but I also watch them on YouTube.  Something I've noticed is that the preserved much revered GWR express locos, with their copper bound funnels and brass mounted safety valves,  Their ornate number and nameplates.  These locos, this system that even after nationalisation were excused from looking like the rest of the BR fleet,  is that they seldom appear on steam specials with more than ten coaches, whereas the representatives of the other British railways, plus the representatives of BR itself, are seldom seen with less that eleven. Sometimes twelve, even thirteen.  On paper the Kings were more powerful than most express passengers locos, and the equal of the Princesses, Princess Coronations, Peppercorn A2s, and the single Duke of Gloucester class.

I've seen Black 5's, on paper 35% less powerful than the Kings waltz up the infamous Miles Platting Bank in Manchester with ten or eleven coaches on, from a standing start at Manchester Victoria, where the King has occasionally nearly been brought to a halt.  I wonder where this favouritism among British steam buffs came from?

I broadly agree with you, Trojan, but to be fair to Black 5s, they had a far greater geographical spread than B1s, which were limited to the Eastern and Scottish regions in BR days, if I remember correctly, whereas Black 5s could be seen on all regions, and not just as occasional, unexpected visitors.

[Trojan]

4 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

I broadly agree with you, Trojan, but to be fair to Black 5s, they had a far greater geographical spread than B1s, which were limited to the Eastern and Scottish regions in BR days, if I remember correctly, whereas Black 5s could be seen on all regions, and not just as occasional, unexpected visitors.

Well yes, but when I was in my pomp as a train spotter( late 50' early 60's) locos generally stuck to the area they were built to serve.  For instance, the Liverpool - Leeds - Newcastle breakfast  express usually came into Leeds behind a LMS powered double header - (Jubilees, Patriots, Royal Scots) but at Leeds these where the   change was from former LMS metals to former LNER metals, these would be exchanged for either an A1 or an A3 for the rest of the journey. Another point in favour of the B1 is that it was built in a time of wartime austerity, so corners had to be cut

[Bearman]

Black 5 at Preston now

[Just Browny]

This thread has taken longer to build momentum than... a steam locomotive.

[SSoutherner]

I remember taking the kids to STEAM (the museum by Swindon station based at the old GWR works) several years ago. Great day out and you can walk under a train and see all the workings as they have a clean one over a lit inspection pit

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

22 hours ago, Trojan said:

Well yes, but when I was in my pomp as a train spotter( late 50' early 60's) locos generally stuck to the area they were built to serve.  For instance, the Liverpool - Leeds - Newcastle breakfast  express usually came into Leeds behind a LMS powered double header - (Jubilees, Patriots, Royal Scots) but at Leeds these where the   change was from former LMS metals to former LNER metals, these would be exchanged for either an A1 or an A3 for the rest of the journey. Another point in favour of the B1 is that it was built in a time of wartime austerity, so corners had to be cut

I agree that the B1 was a fine engine, Trojan, produced in far from easy circumstances.

My point about the Black Five is to do with its ubiquity.  I was in my trainspotting heyday at about the same time as you, perhaps a few years earlier.  My local patch was Bristol - western region, but with Black Fives an everyday siting.  Bristol Barrow Road was a western region shed (82E, I seem to recall), but with Midland origins, hence its roster of midland region engines including a fair few Black Fives.

Then, of course, other than the distinctive Fowler designed small class of 2-8-0s (numbered 53801 et seq), Black Fives were the most likely non-southern region stock likely to be encountered on the old Somerset & Dorset line down to Bournemouth from Bath Green Park.

Although definitely not my local patch, East Anglia and the East Midlands also had regular Black Five activity, I believe.

 

[Trojan]

17 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

I agree that the B1 was a fine engine, Trojan, produced in far from easy circumstances.

My point about the Black Five is to do with its ubiquity.  I was in my trainspotting heyday at about the same time as you, perhaps a few years earlier.  My local patch was Bristol - western region, but with Black Fives an everyday siting.  Bristol Barrow Road was a western region shed (82E, I seem to recall), but with Midland origins, hence its roster of midland region engines including a fair few Black Fives.

Then, of course, other than the distinctive Fowler designed small class of 2-8-0s (numbered 53801 et seq), Black Fives were the most likely non-southern region stock likely to be encountered on the old Somerset & Dorset line down to Bournemouth from Bath Green Park.

Although definitely not my local patch, East Anglia and the East Midlands also had regular Black Five activity, I believe.

 

Towards it's latter days the Great Central main line was transferred from the Eastern to the Midland regions and the Black 5's began to appear on there, also on the section of the ECMR that connected Bradford, pulling the Bradford section of the East Coast crack expresses like the West Riding and White Rose - the trains divided at Wakefield. Indeed in later years the Stanier and Fairburn 2-6-4T's used to occasionally appear on this service. Presumably the B1's were being withdrawn.  But here's a B1 in it's pomp on the Bradford section of either the White Rose or West Riding..

[Trojan]

Here's something you rarely see these days