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Hillsborough Inquest update


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This is a wonderful, but harrowing, article from one of the survivors: Justice, finally: a Hillsborough survivor’s story

On 4 August 1989, Lord Justice Taylor produced his interim report into the causes of the disaster. He concluded that the main cause was overcrowding, and the main reason was the failure of police control. Here, essentially, was the truth the jury found in Warrington last week – laid before the public in August 1989. But the public didn’t get to see it first: Thatcher and her cabinet did.

On 1 August 1989, the report was presented to the home secretary, Douglas Hurd, who sent an internal memo to Thatcher. The chief constable, Hurd thought, will “have to resign”, as the “enormity of the disaster, and the extent to which the inquiry blames the police, demand this”. Hurd requested Thatcher’s support for his own statement, in which he would “welcome unreservedly the broad thrust of the report”. Thatcher replied: “What do we mean by ‘welcoming the broad thrust of the report’? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? … Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations. MT”.

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Quite rightly a lot of focus is on South Yorkshire police, but let us not forget West Midlands in this shameful situation.

The present Director of Public Prosecutions, Alison Saunders, has been identified as another individual worth looking at by the Sunday Times today as she was the government's legal adviser at the time of the second inquest, seven years after Hillsborough.  Saunders apparently concluded that there was no evidence of police misconduct.

 

I am sure there are a lot of individuals and groups that will have contributed towards the miscarriage of justice that has happened here.  Whether any of them are criminally liable we will no doubt find out in December when the two inquiries produce their report.

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The present Director of Public Prosecutions, Alison Saunders, has been identified as another individual worth looking at by the Sunday Times today as she was the government's legal adviser at the time of the second inquest, seven years after Hillsborough.  Saunders apparently concluded that there was no evidence of police misconduct.

 

I am sure there are a lot of individuals and groups that will have contributed towards the miscarriage of justice that has happened here.  Whether any of them are criminally liable we will no doubt find out in December when the two inquiries produce their report.

Yes, I'm sure there are.  Starting at the top with Thatcher and Ingham.  Thatcher by this time was in her megalomaniac stage, where she thought she was infallible and immortal.  Ingham (who was supposed to be a civil servant) worshipped at her shrine, as did Irving Patnick.  Thatcher and Patnick are dead but I think Ingham should be brought up short.

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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FfS.

I know, it's terrible. Thatcher didn't like the conclusions of the Taylor Report and Douglas Hurd was going to ask for resignations but she overruled it. And no further significant action was taken with it. Who knows, a different reaction from her at that point and the families may not have had to fight for 27 years for the truth to finally be exposed and accepted.

You said I was wrong several posts above, but here it is in black and white: Hillsborough Independent Pannel Report - part 2 - chapter 6 - page 8

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Yes, I'm sure there are.  Starting at the top with Thatcher and Ingham.  Thatcher by this time was in her megalomaniac stage, where she thought she was infallible and immortal.  Ingham (who was supposed to be a civil servant) worshipped at her shrine, as did Irving Patnick.  Thatcher and Patnick are dead but I think Ingham should be brought up short.

Given that she is now dead I would imagine Thatcher is the very last person in line for investigation.  What a waste of resources it would be to investigate someone who is dead.  Ingham fair enough.  I don't now who Irving Patrick is/was?  If you want politicians to be held accountable then how about Jack Straw for starters? 

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Jimmy savile's vile behaviour got investigated under yew tree? Was it a waste of resources?

Why should thatch escape investigation.... If she was guilty the investigation may prompt a wider ranging investigation into the conduct of others....

"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

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Given that she is now dead I would imagine Thatcher is the very last person in line for investigation. What a waste of resources it would be to investigate someone who is dead. Ingham fair enough. I don't now who Irving Patrick is/was? If you want politicians to be held accountable then how about Jack Straw for starters?

If you don't know who Irving Patrick is and the role he played in initiating the cover up then you're clearly extremely ignorant of the subject of the Hillsborough disaster and the subsequent cover up.

It will be interesting to know what Jack Straw did or didn't know. He appears guilty of not looking very hard and pushing for deeper enquiries. But then again it's already been suggested that he was pressured by Tony Blair into not doing anything.

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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If you don't know who Irving Patrick is and the role he played in initiating the cover up then you're clearly extremely ignorant of the subject of the Hillsborough disaster and the subsequent cover up.

It will be interesting to know what Jack Straw did or didn't know. He appears guilty of not looking very hard and pushing for deeper enquiries. But then again it's already been suggested that he was pressured by Tony Blair into not doing anything.

Seems you dont know who he is either. Expect a writ from Irving Patrick any day now.

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I just Googled Patnick and came up with this obituary from the Daily Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/9773286/Sir-Irvine-Patnick.html

 

It appears he apologised for his part in furthering the message that the fans were to blame.  Since along with Thatcher he is no longer here I think any investigation into him would be a waste of resources.

 

I wondered where the 'Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire' came from.  Now I know.  It was very apt!

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Shouldn't any in-depth investigation look at the involvement of everyone who had a significant part to play, whether currently alive or dead?

 

The point is to establish what happened. If Sir Irving Patnick was culpable or innocent of the accusations levelled at him, it should be documented. Otherwise we get an incomplete account of events, which is hardly the point of an investigation, and definitely not what the victims and their families would want.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Shouldn't any in-depth investigation look at the involvement of everyone who had a significant part to play, whether currently alive or dead?

The point is to establish what happened. If Sir Irving Patnick was culpable or innocent of the accusations levelled at him, it should be documented. Otherwise we get an incomplete account of events, which is hardly the point of an investigation, and definitely not what the victims and their families would want.

exactly.... without investigations into Savile other vile crimes would not have been investigated....

If thatch and patnick were seen to be guilty, who else were.... and prosecute them

"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

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exactly.... without investigations into Savile other vile crimes would not have been investigated....

If thatch and patnick were seen to be guilty, who else were.... and prosecute them

Well, you can't prosecute the dead, but still, their part in the incident and the aftermath should be taken into account, as should Patnick's apology.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Indeed.... but investigation of the dead may well uncover past crimes of the living.... as it did in yew tree...

"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

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Shouldn't any in-depth investigation look at the involvement of everyone who had a significant part to play, whether currently alive or dead?

 

The point is to establish what happened. If Sir Irving Patnick was culpable or innocent of the accusations levelled at him, it should be documented. Otherwise we get an incomplete account of events, which is hardly the point of an investigation, and definitely not what the victims and their families would want.

The families have declared they want people to be held to account.  By the very fact that Thatcher and Patnick are dead means they cannot be held to account. 

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The families have declared they want people to be held to account.  By the very fact that Thatcher and Patnick are dead means they cannot be held to account. 

Now the historical lies have been exposed, surely any guilty parties should be named and documented in history?

 

And the two you mention were not without influential contacts throughout the whole sorry cover-up, so are you suggesting we redact every reference to Thatcher, Patnick and any other people involved who are no longer alive?

 

That would make complete gibberish of the result of the investigation. That would be like the Chilcot Report (if it ever appears) making no references at all to Saddam Hussein.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Given that she is now dead I would imagine Thatcher is the very last person in line for investigation.  What a waste of resources it would be to investigate someone who is dead.  Ingham fair enough.  I don't now who Irving Patrick is/was?  If you want politicians to be held accountable then how about Jack Straw for starters? 

How about Bernard Ingham.  He's very much alive.  I reckon he knows more than he's saying about Hillsborough, and Orgreave for that matter.

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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How about Bernard Ingham.  He's very much alive.  I reckon he knows more than he's saying about Hillsborough, and Orgreave for that matter.

His skeleton closet is probably a lot more extensive than any of us suspect.

 

The way he went about his job was an object lesson for the next generation of weasels, from Peter Mandelson to Lynton Crosby and many more in between.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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His skeleton closet is probably a lot more extensive than any of us suspect.

The way he went about his job was an object lesson for the next generation of weasels, from Peter Mandelson to Lynton Crosby and many more in between.

Though in his case far worse as he was a civil servant and therefore supposed to be politically neutral.

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Now the historical lies have been exposed, surely any guilty parties should be named and documented in history?

 

And the two you mention were not without influential contacts throughout the whole sorry cover-up, so are you suggesting we redact every reference to Thatcher, Patnick and any other people involved who are no longer alive?

 

That would make complete gibberish of the result of the investigation. That would be like the Chilcot Report (if it ever appears) making no references at all to Saddam Hussein.

I'm not suggesting anything.  I just think to delve into those two would be a waste of resources.  I would imagine it wouldn't be hard to document their role given what has already been reported but to dig seriously into what they may or may not have done?  To me that just seems a bit pointless given that there are people still alive who need to be held to account.  However, it's not something I'm going to argue about.  Whatever happens happens.  It's up to the two ongoing inquiries to sort out.

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How about Bernard Ingham.  He's very much alive.  I reckon he knows more than he's saying about Hillsborough, and Orgreave for that matter.

I have no problem with that as there is a point to it given that he is still alive.

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I'm not suggesting anything.  I just think to delve into those two would be a waste of resources.  I would imagine it wouldn't be hard to document their role given what has already been reported but to dig seriously into what they may or may not have done?  To me that just seems a bit pointless given that there are people still alive who need to be held to account.  However, it's not something I'm going to argue about.  Whatever happens happens.  It's up to the two ongoing inquiries to sort out.

Surely, given their roles at the time, investigating Thatcher (PM at the time) and Patnick (very much involved in the media presentation of events) would be essential to digging out information that implicates or exonerates people who are still living. 

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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