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JohnM

Hillsborough Inquest update

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And we should be grateful for that. However in the light of the Hillsborough Independent Panel's report and the subsequent debate in parliament it would have been very difficult for him not to give the go ahead for the inquest.

Indeed.  But still he chose to take the findings on board and sanction it.  Remind me again, what happened during the 13 years Labour was in power?

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I can't express fully how pleased I am at this result. It's the real truth that all those who were there or were close to those that were there knew all along. It's such a shame that they have been made to wait 27 years for the truth to be wider known. The scandal is that it should never have taken this long. Had Dukinfield had an ounce of courage he would have admitted is mistake at the time. Instead he was cooking up his excuses and feeding lies to the FA and others about how the gate was opened before some of the victims had actually met their unpleasant end. A disgraceful human being and an abject coward. Of course he isn't alone, plenty went along with his lie fully in the knowledge of what happened and others were very willing to believe the police's version and put the blame on the victims. 

 

Absolutely delighted with the verdict, had to wipe away a few tears in the office.

 

I don't think it's right to put too much blame on Dukinfield; it's easy to see that he was out of his depth, there were many other factors besides his bad decisions contributing to the disaster and things quickly went wrong. He is clearly a broken man and I think it's quite important not to create a precedent where police officers on the ground go about their job in fear of legal consequences of horrible mistakes (I'd argue the same for the Menezes shooting on the underground.)

 

It's what happened next where I find it harder to forgive. The decision to turn away ambulances and prevent medical help reaching the dying, which caused so many further deaths, still seems utterly inexplicable. The senior officers and police lawyers who orchestrated the cover up, changed witness statements and bullied the familes of victims are the ones who should feel the force of justice. Here, I do feel Dukinfield is culpable - he knowingly lied to the public enquiry and the public good is best served by there being some demonstrable consequences for that.

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Indeed.  But still he chose to take the findings on board and sanction it.  Remind me again, what happened during the 13 years Labour was in power?

 

Unfortunately not much change from the preceding Tory government. However there wasn't the weight of evidence of the Hillsborough Independent Panel report, a report instigated by Labour's Andy Burnham. 


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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I don't think it's right to put too much blame on Dukinfield; it's easy to see that he was out of his depth, there were many other factors besides his bad decisions contributing to the disaster and things quickly went wrong. He is clearly a broken man and I think it's quite important not to create a precedent where police officers on the ground go about their job in fear of legal consequences of horrible mistakes (I'd argue the same for the Menezes shooting on the underground.)

It's what happened next where I find it harder to forgive. The decision to turn away ambulances and prevent medical help reaching the dying, which caused so many further deaths, still seems utterly inexplicable. The senior officers and police lawyers who orchestrated the cover up, changed witness statements and bullied the familes of victims are the ones who should feel the force of justice. Here, I do feel Dukinfield is culpable - he knowingly lied to the public enquiry and the public good is best served by there being some demonstrable consequences for that.

My thoughts exactly especially the 2nd paragraph


2014 Challenged Cup Winner

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Perhaps the wonderful Mr Cameron will now set up an enquiry to investigate the disgraceful events at Orgreave.  Same constabulary.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Perhaps the wonderful Mr Cameron will now set up an enquiry to investigate the disgraceful events at Orgreave. Same constabulary.

I know what I saw with my own eyes there.

Everyone will assume because I'm a bit of a pinko, I'm just out to trounce thatch and the police.... and on the politics of the strike they'd be quite correct.

But justice for those beaten to a pulp by the police on the instructions of the then govt will never happen. Some of the police actions at Orgreave and other places were criminal and will never be punished....


"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

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I know what I saw with my own eyes there.

Everyone will assume because I'm a bit of a pinko, I'm just out to trounce thatch and the police.... and on the politics of the strike they'd be quite correct.

But justice for those beaten to a pulp by the police on the instructions of the then govt will never happen. Some of the police actions at Orgreave and other places were criminal and will never be punished....

  

Will be a cold day in hell before that ever happens, unfortunately.

 

As for Hillsborough, I was there. To the individual earlier in this thread who was continuing to repeat the discredited smears and lies of the past, I can say I was one of the first into the ground through the exit gate when it was opened and I can inform him/her that they are talking utter garbage. I won't go into detail because the facts are all there in the Taylor report and the HIP report but it is not only inaccurate but also highly offensive to try to blame the fans for the tragedy.

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Will be a cold day in hell before that ever happens, unfortunately.

As for Hillsborough, I was there. To the individual earlier in this thread who was continuing to repeat the discredited smears and lies of the past, I can say I was one of the first into the ground through the exit gate when it was opened and I can inform him/her that they are talking utter garbage. I won't go into detail because the facts are all there in the Taylor report and the HIP report but it is not only inaccurate but also highly offensive to try to blame the fans for the tragedy.

Oh steve I quite agree that you'll see Satan and all his goblins skating to work before they'll be any justice for the striking miners.....

Doesn't mean there shouldn't be....

I hated that government with a passion that hasn't diminished over the decades. My loathing for the current lot has its roots back then


"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

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Will be a cold day in hell before that ever happens, unfortunately.

 

As for Hillsborough, I was there. To the individual earlier in this thread who was continuing to repeat the discredited smears and lies of the past, I can say I was one of the first into the ground through the exit gate when it was opened and I can inform him/her that they are talking utter garbage. I won't go into detail because the facts are all there in the Taylor report and the HIP report but it is not only inaccurate but also highly offensive to try to blame the fans for the tragedy.

To believe the Ingham BS it at this point takes determination.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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David Conn's coverage throughout the two years of the inquest has been outstanding. The Guardian have been the only national newspaper to cover the story in depth all the way through the process. 


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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I'm a big tough lad but I cried reading that, tears of sorrow and outrage.


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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I'm a big tough lad but I cried reading that, tears of sorrow and outrage.

Aye

"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

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That would be the same party whose PM sanctioned the inquests that have concluded today, yes? 

 

Here's what your wonderful PM had to say about it in 2011: Hillsborough families demand David Cameron explains insensitive comments

 

 

The Prime Minister said victims’ relatives would never get over the 1989 disaster and likened them to a “blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there”.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Unfortunately not much change from the preceding Tory government. However there wasn't the weight of evidence of the Hillsborough Independent Panel report, a report instigated by Labour's Andy Burnham. 

But he only instigated it in 2007.  Why did he not do that earlier? 

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Here's what your wonderful PM had to say about it in 2011: Hillsborough families demand David Cameron explains insensitive comments

Here is the full quote:

 

He said: “I don’t think we will ever achieve closure on Hillsborough. I don’t think there will ever be one moment when you can say ‘that’s it’.

“It’s like, what’s the saying, it’s like a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there.”

 

Cameron also added: “It was this government that agreed to release the Hillsborough documents. Yet, every time I hear the word Hillsborough, I see Andy Burnham on the TV.”

 

Cameron was right.  The families will never achieve closure on Hillsborough.  Even now, just as the inquest has determined in their favour, some are talking about dismantling the South Yorkshire Police and requesting the current chief be fired even though he wasn't in charge at the time.  Cameron used a phrase that was indeed insensitive but he was correct in his observation.  Yet even so, he released the Hillsborough documents and agreed to set up the inquest, which is more than the Labour party did in all their 13 years of government and yet it appears it's all the fault of Cameron.

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I don't really see the point in making this into a "my political party would have handled this better than yours" debate...nor do I see the point in calling for current leaders of the SY police or SY paramedic teams to be sacked, these people weren't in power at the time, its not their fault....only duckinfield and perhaps the people who put him in charge (over Mole) should answer for this

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This guy had plenty to answer to, I still believe it wasn't his own, independent decision to rule on the 3.15 cut off time for the initial inquest that let the authorities off the hook for their abject failure to deal with the aftermath and the beginnings of the cover up: Hillsborough coroner who conducted original heavily-criticised inquest dies of cancer

I don't normally do conspiracy theories, but it is my opinion that his orders came from above, well above, even the very top. I very much doubt anything incriminating has been allowed to still exist, so we will probably never know.

Edited by Griff9of13

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Indeed. But still he chose to take the findings on board and sanction it. Remind me again, what happened during the 13 years Labour was in power?

F### all as usual, but don't let that stop the forums Albert Tatlocks from turning this thread into the usual anti Conservative rant. A pair yelping Pavlov's dogs.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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The Sun seems to of not noticed this quite big news if its front cover for tomorrow is to be believed.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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F### all as usual, but don't let that stop the forums Albert Tatlocks from turning this thread into the usual anti Conservative rant. A pair yelping Pavlov's dogs.

 

And Cameron's two lap dogs defending the party that supervised and enabled the shambles in the first place.


"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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The Sun seems to of not noticed this quite big news if its front cover for tomorrow is to be believed.

I watched The Papers on Sky this evening and a Sun correspondent was one of the two discussing the front pages.  Apparently the Sun is going to go with a two pager on Hillsborough tomorrow.

 

Apparently also the paper has apologised already, in print. 

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I watched The Papers on Sky this evening and a Sun correspondent was one of the two discussing the front pages.  Apparently the Sun is going to go with a two pager on Hillsborough tomorrow.

 

Apparently also the paper has apologised already, in print. 

Is it possible that a Murdoch TV programme might want to put a positive spin on a Murdoch paper's response to today's news?

 

Nah...


Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. (Susan Ertz)

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The Wednesday papers, following a last-minute re-jig from the Times (but not from the Sun).

 

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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. (Susan Ertz)

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And Cameron's two lap dogs defending the party that supervised and enabled the shambles in the first place.

You referring to the Popplewell Enquiry and Taylor Reports? You don't agree with their recommendations? In any case, my post was aimed at the forums very own uber-Skinners.

Edited by JohnM

Four legs good - two legs bad

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