Martyn Sadler Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Winston Churchill died on 24 January 1965. I don't think he was our greatest Prime Minister, and his judgement prior to WW2 was often faulty, but he was the most significant PM, without whom the world might have been a very different place. He wasn't just a war leader or a politician. In 1953 he was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature "for his mastery of historical and biographical description as well as for brilliant oratory in defending exalted human values". His acceptance speech illustrates that point. It also has echoes of issues that still affect us today. Churchill is a great source of quotations. One I have always remembered is the following: "In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearman Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 A lot of working class people had little time for him. I think there was a grudging acceptance that he was the man of the hour during the war. The way that he was thrown out of office by the electorate came as a bit of a surprise to his Tory supporters but a lot of workers especially the miners remembered him from before the war and it was payback time. I remember my dad telling me that it was noticeable that despite the war time shortages he could still get his hands on expensive cigars and always seemed to be a bit drunk, his speech was often slurred. That was resented as we were all supposed to be in it together and rationing didn't seem to have much relevance to him. There was certainly no out pourings of grief when he passed from trade unionists. Ron Banks Midlands Hurricanes and Barrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 A lot of working class people had little time for him. I think there was a grudging acceptance that he was the man of the hour during the war. The way that he was thrown out of office by the electorate came as a bit of a surprise to his Tory supporters but a lot of workers especially the miners remembered him from before the war and it was payback time. I remember my dad telling me that it was noticeable that despite the war time shortages he could still get his hands on expensive cigars and always seemed to be a bit drunk, his speech was often slurred. That was resented as we were all supposed to be in it together and rationing didn't seem to have much relevance to him. There was certainly no out pourings of grief when he passed from trade unionists. The miners remembered his role in sending troop into South Wales to quell the Tonypandy riots in 1911. In Wales in particular he was never forgiven for that by many working people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearman Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The miners remembered his role in sending troop into South Wales to quell the Tonypandy riots in 1911. In Wales in particular he was never forgiven for that by many working people. Quite Ron Banks Midlands Hurricanes and Barrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l'angelo mysterioso Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The miners remembered his role in sending troop into South Wales to quell the Tonypandy riots in 1911. In Wales in particular he was never forgiven for that by many working people. My grandparents loathed him it wasn't just tonypandy. Churchill's time came when the country needed an eloquent front an who looked pugnacious. His actual management of World War Two was very problematic as it had been in world war one. He was a fierce opponent of the social reforms brought on by the Beveridge report including the establishment of the health service. He and Roosevelt were easily outmanoeuvred by Stalin at the yalta conference. WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015 Keeping it local Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l'angelo mysterioso Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The miners remembered his role in sending troop into South Wales to quell the Tonypandy riots in 1911. In Wales in particular he was never forgiven for that by many working people. My grandparents loathed him it wasn't just tonypandy. Churchill's time came when the country needed an eloquent front man who looked pugnacious. His actual management of World War Two was very problematic as it had been in world war one. He was a fierce opponent of the social reforms brought on by the Beveridge report including the establishment of the health service. He and Roosevelt were easily outmanoeuvred by Stalin at the yalta conference. WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015 Keeping it local Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramite Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Had quick read about the Tonypandy riots, I had assumed there were more troops deployed than actually were. Seems Churchill was reluctant to send them he thought the police could manage without them. Wiki seems to suggest that it wasn't any specific action by the army that was the issue just that they were there which in turn caused the strike to collapse. Homer: How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home winemaking course, and I forgot how to drive? [ i]Mr. Burns: Woah, slow down there maestro. There's a *New* Mexico?[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 He was a fierce opponent of the social reforms brought on by the Beveridge report including the establishment of the health service. Not according to this article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l'angelo mysterioso Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Not according to this article. churchill and the Tories wanted an insurance based system, not one funded by Taxes. He remained opposed to the system and tried to undermine it by commissioning a report into its funding when he was re-elected post war. To his chagrin the report found that the system was working efficiently. WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015 Keeping it local Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Doffarf Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 My mum and dad lived through forty years of his political career. WW2 apart, they had no time for him. Mum's summary of him: he had the gift of the gab. If she was dismissive of him, I'm sure she had her reasons. And when they found our shadows Grouped around the TV sets They ran down every lead They repeated every test They checked out all the data on their lists And then the alien anthropologists Admitted they were still perplexed But on eliminating every other reason For our sad demise They logged the only explanation left This species has amused itself to death No tears to cry no feelings left This species has amused itself to death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 churchill and the Tories wanted an insurance based system, not one funded by Taxes. He remained opposed to the system and tried to undermine it by commissioning a report into its funding when he was re-elected post war. To his chagrin the report found that the system was working efficiently. I think that's a mistaken reading of why Churchill commissioned a report by the economist Claude Guillebaud into the NHS when he regained power in 1951. A lot of Tory MPs were unhappy with the NHS and Churchill commissioned the report to put the issue to bed. You may be right to say, though, that he wanted an insurance based system. The principle of national insurance had been developed in 1911, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l'angelo mysterioso Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I think that's a mistaken reading of why Churchill commissioned a report by the economist Claude Guillebaud into the NHS when he regained power in 1951. A lot of Tory MPs were unhappy with the NHS and Churchill commissioned the report to put the issue to bed. You may be right to say, though, that he wanted an insurance based system. The principle of national insurance had been developed in 1911, after all. I'll go along with your analysis Martyn. Thanks. edit: by the way, my wife was the first baby in the country to be born in the NHS. She went on to have a long and distinguished career in nursing. WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015 Keeping it local Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Owen Patterson on Any Questions last night claimed "Churchill won the war" TBH I thought it was my dad and his mates that won it. And what reward did they get when many of them came to retirement? The Tory government removed the link between the state pension and incomes. They deserved better than that! IIRC Churchill would never have been leader if it hadn't been for the Labour party. At a meeting at no 10 when Chamberlain resigned, Chamberlain and Halifax wanted Halifax to take over, Attlee (and I believe Bevin) said they wouldn't serve under Halifax, so Churchill got the gig. Who knows what would have happened had it been Halifax, surrender perhaps? Churchill fought on and bankrupted our country in the process, I'm not saying this was wrong, but he did. Churchill as PM, in terms of the popular vote never won an election, he was appointed in 1940, lost in 1945, lost again in 1950, and although the Tories won the 1951 General Election, they actually polled fewer votes than Labour. I reckon this puts him in perspective. But he was a Tory and he was deified by the biased media in our country, including at the time the influential cinema newsreels, which all seemed pretty right wing to me. “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSaint Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Owen Patterson on Any Questions last night claimed "Churchill won the war" TBH I thought it was my dad and his mates that won it. I personally would disagree with both Patterson's and your claims. It was a collective effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolford6 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 The Kevin Pieterson of politics. Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 This story is anecdotal but sums up the feeling at the end of the war. Churchill was inspecting one of the Yorkshire regiments when a soldier in the ranks said "Nah then Winston, shall we have jobs to go back to?" Churchill says "Yes of course, your efforts will never be forgotten" Soldier shaking his rifle "Aye there'd better be, we know how to use these now" "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I personally would disagree with both Patterson's and your claims. It was a collective effort. In that case Attlee, Bevin and Morrison, who ran the country while Churchill was running the war should get some credit. (they never do) Shouldn't Churchill also get some blame for plunging the Allies into his second southern European debacle in Italy? “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSaint Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 In that case Attlee, Bevin and Morrison, who ran the country while Churchill was running the war should get some credit. (they never do) Shouldn't Churchill also get some blame for plunging the Allies into his second southern European debacle in Italy? It depends on your viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff9of13 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 It depends on your viewpoint. A lot of people don't have a viewpoint as they are unaware of Atlee, Morrison and Bevan's contribution to the running of the country during the war. Popular culture has virtually wiped all but Churchill from the picture. I wasn't really that aware of them when I was growing up. "it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSaint Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 A lot of people don't have a viewpoint as they are unaware of Atlee, Morrison and Bevan's contribution to the running of the country during the war. Popular culture has virtually wiped all but Churchill from the picture. I wasn't really that aware of them when I was growing up. I don't disagree. The same could be said about Brooke (even Slim) compared to the press Montgomery has had. Brooke certainly wasn't shy of criticising Churchill but he firmly thought that he was the inspiration behind the Allied cause; I guess that is what popular culture focuses on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I don't disagree. The same could be said about Brooke (even Slim) compared to the press Montgomery has had. Brooke certainly wasn't shy of criticising Churchill but he firmly thought that he was the inspiration behind the Allied cause; I guess that is what popular culture focuses on. For popular culture read the biased pro Tory media. “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwent Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Owen Patterson on Any Questions last night claimed "Churchill won the war" TBH I thought it was my dad and his mates that won it. To misquote General Patton "nobody ever won a war fighting for their country, they ordered other poor b'stards to do it". I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 To misquote General Patton "nobody ever won a war fighting for their country, they ordered other poor b'stards to do it". I think the quote is "dying for their country" “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSaint Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I think the quote is "dying for their country" "No b##tard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb b##tard die for his country." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwent Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I think the quote is "dying for their country" Which is why I said "to misquote" him..... I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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