JohnM Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Who hoo! Spend, spend spend is back!,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Bloody democracy, people voting for a party which says it cares about people!! "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Agreed, in that's its democracy. Whether the new government really cares about people any more than any other is maybe a moot point. Borrowing too much then defaulting on the loans(if that's what happens) my not be I the best interests of the electorate. I guess the coming months will reveal all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Bloody democracy, people voting for a party which says it cares about people!! That's rather a romanticised interpretation of what's happened. The financial crisis in Greece comes mainly from previous governments' extraordinary generosity to public sector employees. For example, civil servants employed before 1992 could retire at the age of 58 on 80 per cent of their final salary if they had completed 35 years service. I don't know any other country that is so generous with its former employees, although there may be one somewhere. In far too many countries public sector pensions are based on a sort of Ponzi scheme, whereby current retirees draw their pensions from the taxation of current workers. In the Greek economy there are now as many retirees with those pension rights as there are people working in the economy. Those retirees didn't want to give up their rights, no matter how damaging they are to the 50 per cent of young people in the country who can't get a job. They are prepared to sacrifice the young generation to preserve their own financial position, even though it is clearly unsustainable. They want the rest of the EU to pay for it. It is hardly surprising that Greece's debt is 177 per cent of their GDP. And yet the new government is promising to take on more workers in the public sector. I'm afraid the circle can't be squared. "Caring about people" means, in the first instance, not misleading them about the current state of affairs, or what is possible in terms of trying to address the problems they face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 That's rather a romanticised interpretation of what's happened. The financial crisis in Greece comes mainly from previous governments' extraordinary generosity to public sector employees. For example, civil servants employed before 1992 could retire at the age of 58 on 80 per cent of their final salary if they had completed 35 years service. I don't know any other country that is so generous with its former employees, although there may be one somewhere. In far too many countries public sector pensions are based on a sort of Ponzi scheme, whereby current retirees draw their pensions from the taxation of current workers. In the Greek economy there are now as many retirees with those pension rights as there are people working in the economy. Those retirees didn't want to give up their rights, no matter how damaging they are to the 50 per cent of young people in the country who can't get a job. They are prepared to sacrifice the young generation to preserve their own financial position, even though it is clearly unsustainable. They want the rest of the EU to pay for it. It is hardly surprising that Greece's debt is 177 per cent of their GDP. And yet the new government is promising to take on more workers in the public sector. I'm afraid the circle can't be squared. "Caring about people" means, in the first instance, not misleading them about the current state of affairs, or what is possible in terms of trying to address the problems they face. Good god!! A govt wanting to provide work for the people as opposed to the "successful" model of removing it from them!!!! "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Good god!! A govt wanting to provide work for the people as opposed to the "successful" model of removing it from them!!!! The point is that those policies of spending more than they can afford, when applied in the past, have resulted in 50 per cent unemployment among young people. It's the opposite of providing work for people and it's actually a cruel deception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwent Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Good god!! A govt wanting to provide work for the people as opposed to the "successful" model of removing it from them!!!! Hardly the point really. How do you suggest they pay these extra public sector workers ? Romantic ideals are one thing, practical realities are quite another. I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Hardly the point really. How do you suggest they pay these extra public sector workers ? Romantic ideals are one thing, practical realities are quite another. Yeah your right, best leave ' em on the dole eh? "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 The point is that those policies of spending more than they can afford, when applied in the past, have resulted in 50 per cent unemployment among young people. It's the opposite of providing work for people and it's actually a cruel deception. So the choices are high unemployment or high unemployment? "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 So the choices are high unemployment or high unemployment? For as long as Greece stays in the Eurozone and doesn't reduce its debt, that's probably true. And things would be better, of course, if the other Euro countries cancel all or part of Greece's debts. But that's unlikely, and it doesn't change the underlying structural imbalance of the Greek economy, which would create the same problem all over again. On the other hand if it leaves the Eurozone and adopts a new currency, which would then find its own level, it might then be able to offer a future to its young people if it could make some necessary reforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowes Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 The previous government only care about protecting the Euro and are happy for half of young people to be out of work and for unemployed people to be denied healthcare if it boosts the German economy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derwent Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Yeah your right, best leave ' em on the dole eh? Nice soundbyte. But you still haven't explained how you will pay these workers. If the money isn't there then it isn't there. I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 why not just borrow it and not pay it back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/26/greece-dignity-why-i-voted-for-syriza-alex-andreou?CMP=twt_gu Attempts to point out the patent absurdity of the idea that Greek train drivers retiring early in 2009 could be responsible for Lehman Brothers folding in the US a year earlier were dismissed as “Greeks not taking responsibility”. This anger, this feeling of being globally bullied, intensified when the troika of the European commission, International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank imposed their programme of austerity. Many of the measures were horizontal and caused most hurt to those who had least to do with the crisis. Not only that, but the loans secured in exchange mostly went to propping up the very banking institutions that were seen as responsible. With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/26/greece-dignity-why-i-voted-for-syriza-alex-andreou?CMP=twt_gu Quite. IMF bailouts are designed to support financial institutions and private business. And they do that very well. Odd that people who had nothing to do with the crash who are then made to pay for it might eventually get angry about that. I note the complete and total lack of market collapse that we were told would follow the Greeks voting to renegotiate though. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nadera78 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 The issue in Greece is not pensions or public services, it's that Greek billionaire shipping tycoons - and Greeks dominate the global shipping industry one way or another - do not pay a single penny in tax. But, for some reason, no-one wants to talk about that. "Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart." Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 The issue in Greece is not pensions or public services, it's that Greek billionaire shipping tycoons - and Greeks dominate the global shipping industry one way or another - do not pay a single penny in tax. But, for some reason, no-one wants to talk about that. They are wealth creators and we must bow down before them. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 The issue in Greece is not pensions or public services, it's that Greek billionaire shipping tycoons - and Greeks dominate the global shipping industry one way or another - do not pay a single penny in tax. But, for some reason, no-one wants to talk about that. When you give any group special privileges, whether its tax breaks for shipping, or unsustainable pension rights, the beneficiaries are reluctant to give them up, as the previous Greek government found out. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/26/greek-shipping-tycoons-set-sail-tax-privileges-austerity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowes Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Quite. IMF bailouts are designed to support financial institutions and private business. And they do that very well. Odd that people who had nothing to do with the crash who are then made to pay for it might eventually get angry about that. I note the complete and total lack of market collapse that we were told would follow the Greeks voting to renegotiate though. Iceland let all their banks go bust and seem better off in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Iceland let all their banks go bust and seem better off in the long run. Funny how that never made the mainstream news eh? "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Maybe Greece can cock a snook at the troika and borrow from somewhere else. Spain maybe? Oops.... Well, France then. Oops agoin, they've no money either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 The issue in Greece is not pensions or public services, it's that Greek billionaire shipping tycoons - and Greeks dominate the global shipping industry one way or another - do not pay a single penny in tax. But, for some reason, no-one wants to talk about that. You learnt economics from Ed Balls and I claim my £5! Apologies. That was unfair and personal. No one could learn economics from Ed Balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nadera78 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 You learnt economics from Ed Balls and I claim my £5! Apologies. That was unfair and personal. No one could learn economics from Ed Balls. I would ask you to expand upon your point, but you so seldom have one. "Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart." Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Maybe the Greek people have realised that austerity is actually ideologically driven rather than falling for the "there is no alternative" neo lib nonsense "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I'm sorry. I should have been more detailed 1. Tell us about these Greek billionaire shipping tycoons. 2. Specifically what taxes should they pay that they don't pay? 3. How do they dominate compared with, let's say, the Chinese or the Scandinavians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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