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Maybe the Greek people have realised that austerity is actually ideologically driven rather than falling for the "there is no alternative" neo lib nonsense

They'd be wrong then. There was nothing ideological about bond holders being forced to take a 50% hit because Greece paid itself too much using someone else's money. Oh, hang on, socialism IS an ideology.

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They'd be wrong then.

No they wouldn't socialism is the answer, not the pale pink excuse that labour has always used, nor yet the brutal centralisation of Stalinism but workers co-operatively owning and controlling the means of production and distribution.

If there is genuinely no alternative John then what is the fate of the millions of unemployed and the larger number trapped in low pay insecure employment?

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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The problems that Greece face financially are the faults of the Greeks not anybody else. The various governments over the years have allowed many to get away with paying no tax or way too little Tax and then wasting the bit of money they had as well as running up huge debts. This not the fault of the EU or Germany, France or any other nation. The unemployment problem in Greece is the fault of The Greeks who have voted for clowns to run the country in to the ground and then go crying saying we have no money. Instead of looking for ways to not pay the way Greeks would be best accepting that things need to change and that debts need to be payed. There is no quick short term solution that many think exists. Greece like others will struggle to sort the employment out due to the way the people and country think. It doesnt matter who is in charhe, unless Greece is prepared to go through major changes it will always be a basketcase looking to blame others

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For me the bond holders are just like investers/ shareholders in any normal company.

The didn't do their research and made a bad investment. Now they're complaining they might lose their money. As far as I'm aware it's pretty much an unsecured loan.

Yes the Greeks should have borrowed more responsibly, but responsibility goes both ways. If I asked for a loan of 1 million pound I'd be laughed out of the bank. The investors should have done the same to Greek government.

Personally I think they need to default and leave the euro. A very low value currency would make Greece a place I'd be very interested in visiting with my family as they've got some great history and great beeches. The euro has sadly made Greece too expensive to visit for many drying up a precious revenue stream.

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For me the bond holders are just like investers/ shareholders in any normal company.

The didn't do their research and made a bad investment. Now they're complaining they might lose their money. As far as I'm aware it's pretty much an unsecured loan.

Yes the Greeks should have borrowed more responsibly, but responsibility goes both ways. If I asked for a loan of 1 million pound I'd be laughed out of the bank. The investors should have done the same to Greek government.

Personally I think they need to default and leave the euro. A very low value currency would make Greece a place I'd be very interested in visiting with my family as they've got some great history and great beeches. The euro has sadly made Greece too expensive to visit for many drying up a precious revenue stream.

 

I like a lot of that post, but I have to disagree with the bit about default and leave the euro.

 

If Greece defaults, where would it ever be able to borrow money from? Nowhere. Except at extortionate interest rates. If you borrow money, you have to pay it back. Declaring yourself bankrupt is not right. It may be legal, but it is not right.

 

So, who is to blame? First and foremost, the Greek government. However, your point about an unsecured loan is valid. Anybody who thought that Greece had met the convergence criteria back in 1999 is either stupid, naive or duplicitous. The Greek people knew, I knew, I refuse to believe the German and French governments didn't know. It is beyond belief! So, blame shared. Greece should still repay its debt, but not so fast as to destroy their economy, which is what is happening right now.

 

What is that old cliche about living in interesting times?

Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society

Founder (and, so far, only) member.

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I like a lot of that post, but I have to disagree with the bit about default and leave the euro.

If Greece defaults, where would it ever be able to borrow money from? Nowhere. Except at extortionate interest rates. If you borrow money, you have to pay it back. Declaring yourself bankrupt is not right. It may be legal, but it is not right.

So, who is to blame? First and foremost, the Greek government. However, your point about an unsecured loan is valid. Anybody who thought that Greece had met the convergence criteria back in 1999 is either stupid, naive or duplicitous. The Greek people knew, I knew, I refuse to believe the German and French governments didn't know. It is beyond belief! So, blame shared. Greece should still repay its debt, but not so fast as to destroy their economy, which is what is happening right now.

What is that old cliche about living in interesting times?

I agree as well. People, companies and countries should borrow responsibly and pay what they owe. Bankruptcy is bad and I, like you would rather it didn't happen, but since it is legal, and forcing the payments, and forcing them to take more expensive loans to pay the interest payments on other loans is only making the country worse (certainly in relation to the debt GDP ratio). There are no good answers here.

I do think leaving the euro would help due to the boost in exports and tourism that should provide, and frankly the only way the Germans will let them out of the euro that I can think of is a default (i accept I could be wrong on that).

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. Oh, hang on, socialism IS an ideology.

And capitalism isn't?

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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does anyone seriously think that Greece will be allowed to become a third world country mired with debt and sinking into the deepest recession since pre-war Germany . it would be far to embarrassing for the western world to say nothing of a chance for Russia or china to come in offering billions in exchange for military installations right in the soft underbelly of Europe.

has the world learnt nothing from the past

ah a sunday night in front of the telly watching old rugby league games.

does life get any better .

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The Greek government are going to veto any further EU sanctions on Russia. Fairly safe to say where Greece will get a bailout on much softer terms now in exchange for a Russian veto in the EU and perhaps military bases (although Serbia would be another possibility for the latter albeit without the naval potential)

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11373136/Greece-objects-to-EU-call-for-more-Russia-sanctions.html

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does anyone seriously think that Greece will be allowed to become a third world country mired with debt and sinking into the deepest recession since pre-war Germany . it would be far to embarrassing for the western world to say nothing of a chance for Russia or china to come in offering billions in exchange for military installations right in the soft underbelly of Europe.

has the world learnt nothing from the past

 

China is already in there. They have signed deals to turn the port of Piraeus into China's gateway into the EU. (Ship through the Suez, and it's the first major European port you reach) So far, it's just economic collaboration, but who knows what the future will bring?

Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society

Founder (and, so far, only) member.

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China is already in there. They have signed deals to turn the port of Piraeus into China's gateway into the EU. (Ship through the Suez, and it's the first major European port you reach) So far, it's just economic collaboration, but who knows what the future will bring?

 

Read somewhere that the new Greek government were looking to reign on that deal much to the displeasure of the Chinese...

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