Promotion and relegation or something completely different ?

[Krytensmate]

There's more gems for future growth I'm sure.

 

Edit I suggest you change the thread title again to Promotion and Relegation and now for something completely different

I wasn't sure it would fit , or how long the thread would then last ?

[The Parksider]

1. I'm not turning this into a salary cap argument.

 

2. I'm saying that I don't believe the youth development systems, the talent sharing systems and the salary cap are conducive to growth.

 

3. I disagree with all of them. I accept that as they currently are they are incompatible with what I suggest.

 

1. But you are against the salary cap though as per 2.? How would you change it?

 

2. How would you change the junior development/talent sharing systems?

 

3. Well you suggest to unleash the shackles on what I assume to be private investment, but I still do not see the many potential private investors needed.

 

Who we do have like Hudgell/Crossland if he is that rich and you doubt it yourself, are hardly in strategic clubs. We'd be better with him at Hull, with Beaumont at Sheffield, With Davey at Bradford and Koukash at London

 

You started out looking for strategic clubs to get major investment in inc. London, Newcastle and Sheffield and now it seems after a rather large circular argument your development champions are at HKR, Salford, Leigh and Fartown???

[scotchy]

I would have thought the 4 Yorkshiremen sketch more relevant.

'Sheffield, you can't play RL in Sheffield, too far from t'M62 lad'

'M62! M62, oooh you and yer pipe dreams. Yer wayn't find RL in Manchester, just West and East Yorkshire and a few small towns o'er hills'

'West AND East Yorkshire! Moon on a stick your wanting pal, the'll not see RL in Bridlington, just leeds and hull and a few villages in't hills'

'Leeds AND Hull AND a few villages in't hills!Fantasy a tell the. No RL in Pudsey fella, nor Brough. Headingley, by t'river in Hull and our Seth's Garden up Saddleworth, tha's a bluddy lunatic'

And so on and so forth.

[Krytensmate]

And as if by magic ?

[scotchy]

1. But you are against the salary cap though as per 2.? How would you change it?

2. How would you change the junior development/talent sharing systems?

3. Well you suggest to unleash the shackles on what I assume to be private investment, but I still do not see the many potential private investors needed.

Who we do have like Hudgell/Crossland if he is that rich and you doubt it yourself, are hardly in strategic clubs. We'd be better with him at Hull, with Beaumont at Sheffield, With Davey at Bradford and Koukash at London

You started out looking for strategic clubs to get major investment in inc. London, Newcastle and Sheffield and now it seems after a rather large circular argument your development champions are at HKR, Salford, Leigh and Fartown???

you brought all those people in to 5he discussion not me.

I would class Salford as a strategic area actually. However im not sure what the owners at Hudds, Hull kr, Leigh and Salford have to do with Newcastle London and Sheffield, other than an opportunity for you to bring up and then demolish an argument no one else made.

I'm not sure the point of this discussion because I don't actually seem to be in a large part of it.

I have put what I would change in terms of youth development and salary cap earlier the thread.

[The Parksider]

you brought all those people in to 5he discussion not me.

I would class Salford as a strategic area actually. However im not sure what the owners at Hudds, Hull kr, Leigh and Salford have to do with Newcastle London and Sheffield, other than an opportunity for you to bring up and then demolish an argument no one else made.

I'm not sure the point of this discussion because I don't actually seem to be in a large part of it.

I have put what I would change in terms of youth development and salary cap earlier the thread.

 

I'll look the youth development thing up. If it was to flood places with DO's then we get back to costs and effectiveness when there's no SL club in place.

 

We took the debate forward by agreeing private investment is the only avenue for more investment - I'm just making the point that the few who may want to spend £Millions more are not at the strategic clubs we may both like them to be.

 

It's not about who "brought them up" if you believe changing the system will get private investors spending more then they come into the equation.

 

As for Salford at it's most basic would you allow Koukash to just outspend Wire, Wigan and Saints for their best??

 

I posted a lot about Koukash and his plans for junior development. They seemed very thin. I don't think he wants to wait 10 years for something to slowly come to fruition and there is no evidence he's spent anything much in this direction??

[scotchy]

I didn't agree it was solely private investment. I think there needs to be a mixture of private and central investment.

It isn't Koukash's job to fund the amateur game for us. There has to be a mix.

Development officers are there to promote the amatuer game. A worthwhile investment whether there is a club or not. Our youth development is far more broken than that.

For the SC I don't think a cap on salaries works, is morally defensible, or is the best option. I would rather we looked at squad limits and make up.

[The Parksider]

1. I didn't agree it was solely private investment. I think there needs to be a mixture of private and central investment.

2. It isn't Koukash's job to fund the amateur game for us. There has to be a mix.

3. Development officers are there to promote the amatuer game. A worthwhile investment whether there is a club or not. Our youth development is far more broken than that.

4. For the SC I don't think a cap on salaries works, is morally defensible, or is the best option. I would rather we looked at squad limits and make up.

 

1. Well we're really back to the start where I don't think there are the levels of money to provide the finance, and again if we get private investment then we are stuck with it going where the rich man wants it to go. It's no use it going to Fev, Leigh, HKR, Widnes, fartown, Dewsbury or Hunslet. 

 

More investment needs to go into targeted areas I'd agree, but two massive problems with that.

 

2 & 3. It has been the Chairmen of the SL clubs who have funded the development of junior players though, Leeds and Wigan started that off, Saints, Hull and Wire followed later Broncos did well as did Celtic C. My analysis is that most professional players come from areas with professional clubs and develop through those clubs.

 

Like you I would favour more big strategic clubs but I wouldn't change the junior systems they work OK and would IMO work better if clubs did have more influence on the local junior game - but that is fraught with difficulties TWIG pointed out.

 

We disagree entirely on how worthwhile it is to promote junior RL with the purpose of  finding professional quality players for the game when that development is nowhere near a professional club. All the London coaches said that. Sure put London, Newcastle and South Wales in SL and then try to flood them with DO's, but an immense cost.

 

4. Salary cap prevents wage inflation in a blanket way hence the marquee thing. It doesn't level the playing field too well though. I don't know your thoughts on  squad limits and make up?? What are they??

[Padge]

"WHEN what we offer is worth it" these are your words, we will not get the money up front to turn London, Sheffield and Newcastle into big Superleague clubs by your own admission.

 

 

And as the voice of true reason states above there isn't that money available.

 

As things stand let's say SKY did want to have fixtures involving Newcastle, London and Sheffield.

 

What do we do?

 

Do we split the SKY money such that these clubs get far more of it, do we open up the salary cap for them so they can spend more of it?

 

Do they then start signing up the better players from the top clubs to faciltate this because that's what Koukash wanted to do. He'd have pillaged Wire, Saints and Wigan to get there. Do some M62 clubs then pay the price??

 

I assume they do not as I heartily acknowledge your idea that if you flood an area with junior development somehow a senior professional club will pop out.

 

But wherever a senior professional club does not exist in the first place Junior development is very hard. Once the Celtic Crusaders left south Wales Junior development collapsed.

 

Yes I can see your vision of a 12 club league in big areas that all produce their own top professionals so they all are at a high standard, but I can also see the mega-massive bill for creating that infrastructure, the immense cost of subsiding professional clubs in their own stadium running their own local junior development with high staffing levels.

 

Don't get me wrong, don't be abusive and aggressive again, I can see this for Newcastle.

 

But it would depend on the private owner providing this money, not SKY. By their own actions SKY have never offered to fund development, by your own admission they ain't going to do it.

 

I'll reply when you explain the bit in bold.

[The Parksider]

I'll reply when you explain the bit in bold.

 

My reply combined highlighting your post as a more reasonable, and considered mature poster, as a way to carry on what I hoped to be a three way conversation, but without the Armchair Warrior stuff the mods had rightly removed from the thread and warned people to stop doing.

 

The reference in question was Scotchy's post #676 in which his reply to my assertion that to run Superleague clubs to a competitive level so that we do not see the quick financial decline of London, Sheffield, Gateshead/Newcastle (all three who he championed for re-inclusion in SL) Paris and Celtic Crusaders would cost £Millions a year per club. He said to me:-

 

your numbers were picked out of your ass. (post #676)

 

The reference in bold was me talking to him not you, as I was talking two ways hoping for a three way discussion. The numbers were taking into account SL clubs need about £6M a year to compete at top level, CKN telling us they need £3.2M just to survive, and as long term professional player development needs to be centred on an SL club (as the London coaches say, and once Celtic C moved out of Wales junior development disappeared) I find it reasonable to make the case that London, Sheffield and Newcastle may need subsidies of a couple of £Million a year at least for as many years as it would take to get an adequate player development system going. London have one to rescue it's true, but Sheffield have hit brick wall for the years they had at the top.

 

Tens of £Millions were not numbers picked out of the proverbial, and are open to discussion not insult for which no apology was forthcoming.

 

IMHO my conclusion of our debate was in theory it's a great simplistic model for the game to put Superleague clubs in strategic areas and flood them with development officers. In practice it's a plan that may need Melbourne Storm levels (a living practical example) of investment funds required "per club". In addition it was IMHO an assumption that if the game had London, Newcastle and Sheffield on a competitive par with Leeds, Wigan and Saints, SKY would provide the return on that investment.

 

We examined the private investment that attempts to replicate the above idea, but generally with no expectation of any great return. My problem was if you leave it to Ken Davey, Neil Crossland and Marwan Koukash, to pump the £Millions in we would only see the further demise of Bradford Bulls, Hull FC and I'd guess Koukash would pillage Wire/Wigan and saints.

 

The problem there became a damaging non-strategic non-expansive free for all.

 

Now where is that apology he owes me?? If you see it can you let me know?

[Krytensmate]

" I wish to register a complain , this parrot is dead " , " No it's not , it's just resting "

[Ackroman]

I mean what has P&R ever done for us?

 

Apart from the aqueducts?

[scotchy]

looks like the keyboard warriors are back

[zorquif]

BAN THEM ALL