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Italy RL - FIRL/LIRFL split (Merged threads)

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If Italy, Norway and S.Africa are sub sections of "Rugby" that makes life hard for others elsewhere like UAE etc trying to gain recognition. Rugby League is not and never will be part of Rugby Union or any other sport. Rugby Union is not different in Italy or elsewhere. Rugby Union promotes Rugby Union first and foremost. A number will do their best to hinder Rugby League, whether they be in italy, Serbia, Greece, S.Africa etc. And if you think the Italian RU will do its best to help the Rebel Federation then I feel you are nieve.  A Federation in any country should have no ties to Union and should be working with the RLIF/RLEF, not against them. Any Rugby League Federation should not be influenced by a Rugby Union Federation and I dont think it should be getting into bed with them as in Italy, Norway and S.Africa. You have just sold your soul down the river with this. 

 

As usual in Rugby League, too many egos around on many sides, who fail to do whats best for the game and not themselves. I had a fall out with the RLEF in 2010 and could have setup a rival Federation. But I didnt think it right to do so and in reality there should only be one Federation in a Country. A rebel Federation would not have been good for the development of the game and would waste peoples time and efforts. Thats just my opinion. I did some things that were wrong and felt very frustrated as what was happening, as could see the direction things were going in. I have tried to apoligize since then and thankfully certain people have accepted this and we can move on and work together. I just dont think having a rival Federation is a good thing at all and its up to people to try and sort them differences out and think whats good for the game and not themselves.

Edited by Lounge Room Lizard

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If Italy, Norway and S.Africa are sub sections of "Rugby" that makes life hard for others elsewhere like UAE etc trying to gain recognition. Rugby League is not and never will be part of Rugby Union or any other sport. Rugby Union is not different in Italy or elsewhere. Rugby Union promotes Rugby Union first and foremost. A number will do their best to hinder Rugby League, whether they be in italy, Serbia, Greece, S.Africa etc. And if you think the Italian RU will do its best to help the Rebel Federation then I feel you are nieve. A Federation in any country should have no ties to Union and should be working with the RLIF/RLEF, not against them. Any Rugby League Federation should not be influenced by a Rugby Union Federation and I dont think it should be getting into bed with them as in Italy, Norway and S.Africa. You have just sold your soul down the river with this.

As usual in Rugby League, too many egos around on many sides, who fail to do whats best for the game and not themselves. I had a fall out with the RLEF in 2010 and could have setup a rival Federation. But I didnt think it right to do so and in reality there should only be one Federation in a Country. A rebel Federation would not have been good for the development of the game and would waste peoples time and efforts. Thats just my opinion. I did some things that were wrong and felt very frustrated as what was happening, as could see the direction things were going in. I have tried to apoligize since then and thankfully certain people have accepted this and we can move on and work together. I just dont think having a rival Federation is a good thing at all and its up to people to try and sort them differences out and think whats good for the game and not themselves.

Hopefully those on the board of both federations can some how sort out differences. Perhaps that could be a RL miracle otherwise Coni making an official statement on which body they recognize could be the only other way as that decision can not be reverted.

I don't think I fall in the "not in the best interests of RL" category. I'm spending 5-6 weeks in Sicily from May 17 helping a new club out (in Europe/Italy for maybe 4 months).

In the last press release Lirfl more or less stated they aren't against the RL bodies. The new RLIF ceo should be re initiating communication

My personal belief is hopefully no one is lost to RL in Italy if the two were to re unify or one to be recognized by Coni.

Edited by CQItalia

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Hmmmmm some interesting comments on here.

 

Getting into bed with union is not ideal so every one is saying...... but tell me ANY developing / new nation that does NOT use union as a starting point.

Bit of the pot calling the kettle black ar*se.

 

Norway,Italy and maybe SA are taking this a step further by becoming in my eyes "Associate members" of their national RU.

 

Lounge Room Lizard you and me go back a long way and both have been on the wrong end of union bigotry in the past but times change,

 

League is the real cuckoo as we nest in the union backyards,we use thier facilaties and their players to get League off the ground.It seems that the Norwegians and now the Italian guys have gone one step further.

 

LRL remember what you once told Kevin Rudd " Only the people on the ground know the situation in their own country "

 

LIRFL seem to be very active and making lots of progress who gives a flying f*** who they are associate members of as long as they are growing the game.

 

They seem to know what they are doing without everyone judging them.

 

Not many nations have Olympic recognition but its likely the RLEF/RLIF will do what they did to the Netherlands in 2007 and ban all RLEF/RLIF teams from playing games against the "Rebels".

 

A right mess ......but hey this is League.

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Rlef already 'banned' nations and clubs from doing do, which I guess is the only thing they could do.

League can go from always being short 1-2 months during non RU period to 4+ months and 30+ teams, player insurance, protected under Coni laws, among other things.

Already various former and current Italian rugby stars are showing their verbal support.

rugby players will always play both codes in Italy if they like league, unless they do not want to risk RU 'professional' or small semi pro/amateur payments, but that won't be the case now with player insurance.

Nearly all players in both federations play RU. With the odd exception like myself coming here this year

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If partnering with RU is the only way that Italy can get Sports Ministry recognition (and the exposure and funding that no doubt comes with it), then so be it. Would you rather see RL dead in the water instead?

 

Some posters seem convinced that this partnership is basically the death warrant for League in Italy, but I'd be more hopeful - what does Italian RU really have to offer its fanbase? A Six Nations where they will normally lose every match, a World Cup where getting out the group stage is about the limit of their achievement, two fully pro club sides in Pro12 (who fight each other for the wooden spoon in that league) and a domestic league whose champions are routinely smashed when they play European games.

 

If Rugby League does nothing more than string a few winning results together, they will have achieved something the Union side can't do.

 

Secondly, the hostility between RL and RU might be very real in GB and Australia, but don't let that cloud thing for the rest of the world. Do you really think the average Italian or Serbian player gives a ######? Both codes of rugby are such minor sports in mainland Europe that both feds might have no choice but to work together - you've got basketball, handball. volleyball, ice hockey, water polo etc. all with larger slices of the sports market that rugby can even dream of, yet people would rather ##### about how the RL "community" is so depply offended - if we want to be a "community" of three major nations then so be it.

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There are RU people in Italy who were not lacking in hostility towards RL last time the sport tried to establish itself there. For the rebels jumping into bed with the Italian RFU, I would advise caution. And the preparation of an exit strategy with all your assets intact.


Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. (Susan Ertz)

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One of the strongest nations in the world jumping in bed with union...Its the end of league as we know it....Union is going to take control of our game ...drop their flankers and line outs and call it RUGBY...be afraid be very afraid..first Norway,then Italy and SA and now Aussie... :sclerosis:  :sclerosis:  :sclerosis:

 

http://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/randwicks-galloping-greens-and-western-suburbs-magpies-to-play-in-hybrid-game-for-charity/story-fndujljl-1227339017896

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What happens if/when a conflict arises? whether it be about players, facilities, over-lapping of seasons, etc whatever.. and the Rugby League folk want to walk away and continue on their own.. do the FIR have the ability to say "sorry, we control that, you can't.." If so, we know exactly how its going to end.

 

I can only assume the people involved with the rebel league are from union backgrounds and therefore feel quite comfortable siding with the FIR ahead of any conciliatory talks with the FIRL.


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What people don't realise is all the people/admin on both Lirfl and Firl based in Italy are involved in both RL and RU already! Are RL officials aware of that fact...

Nearly all players for both comps player both (as said previously)

League at the moment is played in RUs off season like most other league playing countries in Europe

The only pure RL team (non dual rugby) with their own facility is Gladiators Roma RL (lirfl). The rest are rugby clubs or ground usuage/support through RU clubs

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Union's playing strength, administration and resources in Italy are irrelevant to rugby league. None of those things will ever make a contribution to our code. What can make a contribution however is when a player or a team which has at some point been/is associated with rugby union decides they would like to play rugby league, under the control of the official governing body of the code worldwide (RLIF),whether as a means to keep fit during their off-season, or as a preferred code in general. It means they are rugby league players/clubs, regardless of any other interests they may have.

 

In similar fashion if a club isn't part of an organisation which is recognised by the world's official RL governing body, do they really have a right to call themselves a rugby league club? I'd argue that the RLIF could take the rebels to court for breach of intellectual property. The RLIF maintains ownership of the game, for the game, and whilst their lack of organisation has seen the code grow unchecked in many areas, that does not provide for those unchecked areas to proclaim that they are official in any sense, unless the RLIF says so.

 

Whilst CONI has recognised the group in question, it has recognised them in a de facto manner, only by their association with a previously recognised rugby union body, who do not legally have the right to run a game of rugby league.

 

If the RLIF remain slow on the uptake and allow things to slide, the current situation in Italy will continue, but the game regardless of the rules will be rugby union.

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Any sports association under CONI is the legal entity. If Coni recognise or authorise anything such as this with one body over another after speaking to, researching and analysing two different federations according to their rules then that says something. Generally speaking of course

Lirfl haven't stated their official, only recognized under Fir therefore Coni, after having long discussions and meetings with both. Hence can provide important and otherwise unreachable items such as player insurance that then provides a smoother pathway for players to participate in RL.

And for RL to go from a short "off season" competition to potentially 3-4+ months, even much longer.

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Any sports association under CONI is the legal entity. If Coni recognise or authorise anything such as this with one body over another after speaking to, researching and analysing two different federations according to their rules then that says something. Generally speaking of course

Lirfl haven't stated their official, only recognized under Fir therefore Coni, after having long discussions and meetings with both. Hence can provide important and otherwise unreachable items such as player insurance that then provides a smoother pathway for players to participate in RL.

And for RL to go from a short "off season" competition to potentially 3-4+ months, even much longer.

 

I understand the reasons you have done this but i don't agree this is the right approach. It's short termism and you might see it as a big jump (a quick win) by being able to play longer periods, tap into rugby union insurance policies and playing group but it does not lay down proper sustainable roots for the sport of rugby league.

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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. (Susan Ertz)

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Didn't FIRFL break away before the RLWC?


Check out upcoming international fixtures and highlights of past matches at http://rlfixtures.weebly.com

 

St Albans Centurions International Liaison Officer and former Medway Dragons Wheelchair RL player.

Leeds Rhinos, St Albans Centurions y Griffons Madrid fan. Also follow (to a lesser extent) Catalans Dragons, London Broncos, South Sydney Rabbitohs, Jacksonville Axemen, Vrchlabi Mad Squirrels, København Black Swans, Red Star Belgrade and North Hertfordshire Crusaders.

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I read it, I understand it but it doesn't assuage my concerns about anybody getting into bed with a sport that has 120 years of form in trying to bury rugby league.

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I read it, I understand it but it doesn't assuage my concerns about anybody getting into bed with a sport that has 120 years of form in trying to bury rugby league.

And a sport that already killed Rugby League in Italy once before.


Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. (Susan Ertz)

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Isn't the Italian RU the exact  same organisation that was instrumental in wiping out League in Italy in the sixties?

We have to ask ourselves what's in it for them? Why this sudden love and enthusiasm for league by the Italian RU?

This appears to be the equivalent of the Turkey Preservation Society becoming part of Bernard Matthews Ltd.  

I hope I'm wrong, but as usual when our kick & clap cousins start meddling in League affairs, I fear the worst. 

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This is complete supposition but there's too much of it going around for it not to be a coincidence.  In my view, there has been guidance from the IRB that the way to blunt Rugby League's worldwide growth is to swallow it up in developing nations by making it a "division" of Rugby Union.  Pretty soon, "World Rugby" will try and usurp the RLIF and the only people who can conceivably fight it off are the Home Nations (under the wing of the RFL), Australia, New Zealand and, maybe, France.

 

As I said, guesswork, supposition, reading between lines that mightn't even be there.

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This is complete supposition but there's too much of it going around for it not to be a coincidence.  In my view, there has been guidance from the IRB that the way to blunt Rugby League's worldwide growth is to swallow it up in developing nations by making it a "division" of Rugby Union.  Pretty soon, "World Rugby" will try and usurp the RLIF and the only people who can conceivably fight it off are the Home Nations (under the wing of the RFL), Australia, New Zealand and, maybe, France.

 

As I said, guesswork, supposition, reading between lines that mightn't even be there.

 

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-07-05-00-bullying-sascoc-must-be-reined-in

 

 

Meanwhile, Kobus Botha, the president of the South African Rugby League (SARL), said interest in the sport was on the decline because Sascoc refused to recognise it as a legitimate national sport.

"They keep on insisting that the rugby league affiliate to the South African Rugby Union [saru], in spite of being in possession of letters from both Saru and the IRB [international Rugby Board] indicating that such an affiliation is not possible as the sporting codes are separate sporting codes with different rules and different governing bodies.

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I don't think they killed it off from what a former Italian RL member said. Was more no government / financial support during a very bad economic period (a lot of people migrating to Australia etc in the 60s)

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I don't think they killed it off from what a former Italian RL member said. Was more no government / financial support during a very bad economic period (a lot of people migrating to Australia etc in the 60s)

 

From what I've read, the creation of the RL federation was about some elite RU clubs which were ###### about Fiamme Oro hoarding most of the best players of the country. 

 

Any truth in that ?

Edited by Gambass

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From what I've read, the creation of the RL federation was about some elite RU clubs which were ###### about Fiamme Oro hoarding most of the best players of the country.

Any truth in that ?

Not sure on that. Most of the history is difficult to find and I think either an ex firl/lirfl member has all the documents or a current firl member.

But there were quite a lot of ex ru clubs involved or changed names.

There's actually 2-3 ex initial rugby a 13 clubs that went or returned to RU that are in the too championship and the second tier competition

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Having read these posts with much interest perhaps it's time for the truth to be told.

The simple facts are these.......

FIRL is the officially recognised governance for RL in Italy by the RLIF

FIRL plays a short championship with Rugby Union players in the off season.

FIRL has all its assets in Austrailia, its president is austrailain, the RWC2013 Italian gala dinner was in Sydney and not a single player who represented the azzuri in the World Cup has played RL in Italy.

FIRL is run by Ital/Austrailia management who do little to nothing to grow the game on Italian soil.

CONI governs all sport and does not recognise the difference in codes therefore DECREED that 'Rugby' is under one umbrella. This is not FIR decision or LIRFL decision, is a decision made by the government and made under legal statute.

LIRFL has the most active RL participants and plays an Italian Cup and Italian championship during summer months. It has also produced this data of participation to CONI for the last 4 years.

FIRL has done nothing of the sort, if you look closely at their website of their 'championship' you can see for yourself how much hard work is going into development of the game.

Bottom line is simple, in Italy rugby is rugby regardless of how many you have on the field or whether you play it on the beach, it is all governed by CONI

Now the LIRFL has been officially recognised in Italy as a governing FEDERATION, it will benefit in the same way as all other recognised sports,

It now has access to spread the gospel of RL to 70,000 active rugby participants.

I can guarantee you that having researched this entire story I believe that RL will now be seen to grow with support of sporting governance from the state.

It's clearly been said that LIRFL has made and can evidence numerous emails and attempts to get round the table with RLIF RLEF and FIRL without any success at all.

I think the questions need to be asked of the people responsible for International development and European development. Let's see some proactive 'work' on their part to get this great game to grow.

Can you imagine a team representing Austrailia in the World Cup who don't live or play in Austrailia, don't speak English, don't do anything to promote the game in Austrailia???? Well effectively that describes FIRL. They have little to no presence on the ground in Italy.

There is also the fact that seeing as most RL players already play in Union clubs then where will FIRL get their players from?

CONI states all RL activities will be governed by LIRFL so doesn't that make any activity by FIRL as unofficial?

There is one simple solution, unify LIRFL and FIRL as a democratically elected governing body, with representatives duly elected by the participating clubs- (FIRL won't go for this as they have nowhere near the participant clubs that LIRFL has) and this is what has stumped any unification attempts in previous years.

And one final question- why would RLIF and RLEF object to anyone wanting to grow the game.

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