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John Drake

Labour leadership contest

Which of the candidates would make you more likely to vote Labour if they win the leadership?  

55 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the candidates would make you more likely to vote Labour if they win the leadership?

    • Andy Burnham
      13
    • Yvette Cooper
      13
    • Jeremy Corbyn
      14
    • Liz Kendall
      7
    • I would never vote Labour
      8
  2. 2. Did you vote Labour in the 2015 General Election?

    • Yes
      26
    • No
      29
  3. 3. Do you have a vote in the Labour leadership election?

    • Yes
      11
    • No
      44
  4. 4. Who would you vote for in the Labour leadership election?

    • Andy Burnham
      15
    • Yvette Cooper
      13
    • Jeremy Corbyn
      18
    • Liz Kendall
      9


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Why don't you put another record on?  The one about the millionaire who pays no tax in the UK but happily uses the NHS and all the other state funded benefits?

You need to take a chill pill pal you seem to have taken your beloved Labour party getting humiliated rather bad,if your not careful you'll end up in the underfunded NHS.

Tax avoidance peees me off just as much as ss scroungers but i dont know any millionaires,but i do know loads of SS scroungers who rob the state

I'll say this again i didnt vote tory,i pay corporation tax and personal tax which i am duly right to do,but i dont want wayne and waynetta to benefit from my taxes,these are the core of labour voters,dead legs,parasites,scroungers,certainly not working class

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This is declining and off topic.

It does seem that neither party is particularly bothered about the deficit.  The Conservatives are being profligate in lowering inheritance and corporate tax is being lowered beneath the level that makes sense of keeping the UK competitive.  Labor are being fairly clear that they would go for growth. Neither are really set on reducing it by conventional housekeeping.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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You need to take a chill pill pal you seem to have taken your beloved Labour party getting humiliated rather bad,if your not careful you'll end up in the underfunded NHS.

Tax avoidance peees me off just as much as ss scroungers but i dont know any millionaires,but i do know loads of SS scroungers who rob the state

I'll say this again i didnt vote tory,i pay corporation tax and personal tax which i am duly right to do,but i dont want wayne and waynetta to benefit from my taxes,these are the core of labour voters,dead legs,parasites,scroungers,certainly not working class

Tax avoidance (legal) costs this country £30bn pa, Plus of course the unknown amount of illegal evasion. Social security fraud costs £1.7bn.  Guess which the government are coming down hardest on?


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Jeremy Corbyn is very easily rattled, even by a relatively friendly interviewer.

 

Anyone thinking of voting for him should perhaps watch it.

 

I wouldn't call it a particularly "friendly interviewer"; KGM was hectoring, aggressive and sulky when he couldn't get Corbyn to say what he wanted him to. But, yes, he did start to lose it a bit in the middle. He was also right about the "tabloid journalism".

 

All too often innerviews try to trap interviewees into giving a one word answer to a complex question that can then be repeated out of context at the broadcasters leisure afterwards. It's cheap sensationalism at the expense of delving for real insight into the thoughts and aims of the interviewee and it happens far too often.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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I had the displeasure of meeting Corbyn when I was working in Islington in ther late 90's.

He was one of the most arrogant, odious little men i've ever met, only interested in the sound of his own voice and not interested in anyone elses views.

 

If the party votes him in as their next leader they can kiss goodbye to all hope of winning the next election


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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I wouldn't call it a particularly "friendly interviewer"; KGM was hectoring, aggressive and sulky when he couldn't get Corbyn to say what he wanted him to. But, yes, he did start to lose it a bit in the middle. He was also right about the "tabloid journalism".

 

All too often innerviews try to trap interviewees into giving a one word answer to a complex question that can then be repeated out of context at the broadcasters leisure afterwards. It's cheap sensationalism at the expense of delving for real insight into the thoughts and aims of the interviewee and it happens far too often.

I agree with most of what you say, but there are ways to handle intrusive questioning, and ways not to.

 

Unfortunately Corbyn's response suggested that Saint Toppy's experience was an accurate impression of him.

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I had the displeasure of meeting Corbyn when I was working in Islington in ther late 90's.

He was one of the most arrogant, odious little men i've ever met, only interested in the sound of his own voice and not interested in anyone elses views.

 

If the party votes him in as their next leader they can kiss goodbye to all hope of winning the next election

Sounds like Derek Hatton (who has recently crawled out of the woodwork again, wanting to reinstate himself in the labour party in scouseland, no doubt in the belief that the tide is turning left again!)

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Sounds like Derek Hatton (who has recently crawled out of the woodwork again, wanting to reinstate himself in the labour party in scouseland, no doubt in the belief that the tide is turning left again!)

It is if Corbyn gets in,he even writes an article in the Morning Star

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Although posted in another thread, Mhairi Black's speech in the Commons where she said: “Like so many SNP members I come from a traditional socialist, Labour family. Like so many, I feel that it is the Labour party that left me, not the other way about,”

 

I'm actually appalled by the people who believe they have to change the Labour Party to the right because the UK has changed.  Has it REALLY?  We're not that many years from when Labour blew away the other parties in 1997.  We're also only 5 years from when Cameron couldn't convince the population to vote for a Tory majority against a left-ish leaning but hugely unpopular Gordon Brown.  What's happened in the meantime is that Labour have lurched to the right, promised to out-Tory the Tories and suffered a well deserved defeat across the UK and massacre in Scotland because of it.  And what's worse is that the goons leading the party are convinced they lost because they haven't lurched right enough; that was demonstrated by Harman thinking it really was acceptable to abstain on a vote that will see working people at the bottom of the food chain lose money and genuinely needy people set adrift to sink or swim.

 

There is no alternative to Labour therefore it needs to be rescued from the goons who want to turn it into a pathetic stunted version of the Tory party.  Bunch of weathercocks as Mhairi would call them.

 

For the Tory and Kipper voters who are hanging around here, this post isn't aimed at you.  We know your "I'm alright Jack" attitudes where you'd see people starve just to ensure we can give corporations more tax cuts in the wishful dream that some of that will trickle downwards to you.  We know you'll applaud happily like seals at dinner time for cuts to the welfare state that sees people disabled from birth and genuinely unable to work have their benefits cut just because they've not "paid into the system".  We know you'll bray like demented donkeys about how people who are in fuel and food poverty should just get off their behinds and work harder regardless of their circumstances.  You already have your Tory party, we don't need a Tory-lite in Labour.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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They may well have known but they were in coalition and they would not have known what the situation would be post election.  Had they not been in coalition prior to the election the Tories may well have postponed the electrification plans then.

 

If you believe that, you'll probably believe anything.


.

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Although posted in another thread, Mhairi Black's speech in the Commons where she said: “Like so many SNP members I come from a traditional socialist, Labour family. Like so many, I feel that it is the Labour party that left me, not the other way about,” she said.

 

I'm actually appalled by the people who believe they have to change the Labour Party to the right because the UK has changed.  Has it REALLY?  We're not that many years from when Labour blew away the other parties in 1997.  We're also only 5 years from when Cameron couldn't convince the population to vote for a Tory majority against a left-ish leaning but hugely unpopular Gordon Brown.  What's happened in the meantime is that Labour have lurched to the right, promised to out-Tory the Tories and suffered a well deserved defeat across the UK and massacre in Scotland because of it.  And what's worse is that the goons leading the party are convinced they lost because they haven't lurched right enough; that was demonstrated by Harman thinking it really was acceptable to abstain on a vote that will see working people at the bottom of the food chain lose money and genuinely needy people set adrift to sink or swim.

 

There is no alternative to Labour therefore it needs to be rescued from the goons who want to turn it into a pathetic stunted version of the Tory party.  Bunch of weathercocks as Mhairi would call them.

 

For the Tory and Kipper voters who are hanging around here, this post isn't aimed at you.  We know your "I'm alright Jack" attitudes where you'd see people starve just to ensure we can give corporations more tax cuts in the wishful dream that some of that will trickle downwards to you.  We know you'll applaud happily like seals at dinner time for cuts to the welfare state that sees people disabled from birth and genuinely unable to work have their benefits cut just because they've not "paid into the system".  We know you'll bray like demented donkeys about how people who are in fuel and food poverty should just get off their behinds and work harder regardless of their circumstances.  You already have your Tory party, we don't need a Tory-lite in Labour.

 

The problem with the Labour Party at the moment - and your post illustrates it quite well - is that it seems to relish being opposition more than being in government.

 

To some of its members ideological purity seems more important than gaining power. You can see that in the abuse that Liz Kendall seems to be getting from a lot of party members. And unlike Mhairi Black, Kendall, for all her faults, has been a Labour Party member for 30 years.

 

We see it in the abuse of people who voted for other parties, and the assumption that they did so from motives that were essentially unethical.

 

George Osborne and his cronies must be loving debates of this sort.

 

The idea that "Labour have lurched to the right" seems fanciful. That is precisely what the party didn't do under Ed Miliband and his infamous 35% strategy.

 

If a party can't take on board changes in society then it will die a slow death.

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Plans are not set in stone.  Only Ed Milliband thinks they are.  You have a plan but if something happens out of the blue or if things are not developing in the way you anticipated, it is wise to adapt your plan.  The principles upon which the 'long term economic plan' are based - smaller welfare, work pays, getting down the deficit - are all still there but the manner in which they are being addressed has altered slightly as the economic environment and other factors have altered.

 

What precisely 'happened out of the blue' that caused George Osborne's original 'long term economic plan' as espoused in 2010 to go off the rails?

 

The double-dip recession his policies were directly responsible for causing, that's what!

 

It's often conveniently forgotten by those on the right that the economy was growing before the May 2010 election, and if Labour had been allowed to implement their own alternative economic plan, it would likely have continued to do so. Alas, we will now never know.

 

Remember, Labour aimed far more sensibly to halve the deficit in a single Parliament, but George Osborne aimed to eliminate it, and failed spectacularly by sucking far too much demand out of the economy far too quickly. If a Labour Chancellor had done that, their reputation would have been torn to shreds as a result.

 

Labour's biggest failure in opposition has been to surrender its economic record in government to the Tory lie machine.

 

This link below illustrates the extent of the lie that Labour were somehow carelessly profligate with the nation's finances and that the Tories would have done things differently and spent less:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6975536.stm

 

The deficit subsequently ballooned due to the international banking crisis, which would have happened regardless of whichever party was in government at the time, but it suits the Tories and their supporters to pin the blame for a financial crash that had its roots in the US sub prime lending market, not the domestic policy of the British government, on the Labour Party.

 

And before anyone yells 'banking regulation', remember too that however lax Labour were on this matter (and they were), the Tories still criticised them for being over zealous and called for even less regulation, suggesting that things may have been even worse at the time if they had been at the helm.

 

The problem for Labour is that the lie that they 'crashed the economy' and cannot be trusted with the nations finances has been repeated so often it is now accepted as the truth, and that is in no small part their own fault for not challenging it each and every time it is repeated.

 

The notion that the Tories are somehow 'safe' with the nation's finances has no firm evidence to back it up if you examine their actual record in government over the years. It was, after all, on Osborne's watch that the nation lost its triple A credit rating.

 

To bring this back on topic to the subject of who Labour should pick as its new leader, it needs to be someone who is not afraid to articulate the above argument, not afraid to go on the attack against the Tories and able to present an appealing alternative vision of what this country can be than the mean spirited, spiteful, nationalistic, neighbour against neighbour, rich get richer, poor get poorer, foodbank dependent, I'm alright Jack society that is being created around us.

 

Tall order, given the available field, but I live in hope.


.

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The problem with the Labour Party at the moment - and your post illustrates it quite well - is that it seems to relish being opposition more than being in government.

 

To some of its members ideological purity seems more important than gaining power. You can see that in the abuse that Liz Kendall seems to be getting from a lot of party members. And unlike Mhairi Black, Kendall, for all her faults, has been a Labour Party member for 30 years.

 

We see it in the abuse of people who voted for other parties, and the assumption that they did so from motives that were essentially unethical.

 

George Osborne and his cronies must be loving debates of this sort.

 

The idea that "Labour have lurched to the right" seems fanciful. That is precisely what the party didn't do under Ed Miliband and his infamous 35% strategy.

 

If a party can't take on board changes in society then it will die a slow death.

I disagree.  Osborne and Cameron, with minor supporting acts from IDS and cronies, are proper signpost MPs (using Black's terminologies) who genuinely believe in what they're doing.  That's undoubtedly why they've been so successful against a Labour party of weathercock MPs and shadow ministers who change their minds on their way forward based on the latest focus group.

 

It's beyond dispute that Labour lurched to the right. At the recent election, they promised to at least match the Tory policies on business and were criticised as business-unfriendly despite them agreeing with the biggest corporate real terms and undisputed tax cuts in multiple generations.  They also had a minister promise, and backed more subtly via manifesto, to  out-Tory the Tories on cutting the welfare state (not welfare fraud, welfare).  I could go on.  Labour in 2015 were much further right-wing in their policies and statements than even Maggie Thatcher was in the 80s.  Yet, the current shadow leadership are berating themselves and us for not going even further right.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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For the Tory .... voters who are hanging around here, this post isn't aimed at you.  We know your "I'm alright Jack" attitudes where you'd see people starve just to ensure we can give corporations more tax cuts in the wishful dream that some of that will trickle downwards to you.  We know you'll applaud happily like seals at dinner time for cuts to the welfare state that sees people disabled from birth and genuinely unable to work have their benefits cut just because they've not "paid into the system".  We know you'll bray like demented donkeys about how people who are in fuel and food poverty should just get off their behinds and work harder regardless of their circumstances.  You already have your Tory party, we don't need a Tory-lite in Labour.

Gratuitous, error strewn, misreprentative, mendacious , wrong headed and offensive.....so no change there. Anyway, looks like you'll get your wish of perpetual opposition to sound government. I hear Corbyn is leading at present.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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Gratuitous, error strewn, misreprentative, mendacious , wrong headed and offensive.....so no change there. Anyway, looks like you'll get your wish of perpetual opposition to sound government. I hear Corbyn is leading at present.

I'd have said Craig was right on the money.  


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Gratuitous, error strewn, misreprentative, mendacious , wrong headed and offensive.....

Your description of the current Tory government? :unsure:


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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The Torygraph with a headline article that's surely just outrageous.  It's just so, well, Fox News...  What's worse is that it's an editorial slot, not a comment piece.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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Gratuitous, error strewn, misreprentative, mendacious , wrong headed and offensive.....so no change there. Anyway, looks like you'll get your wish of perpetual opposition to sound government. I hear Corbyn is leading at present.

Oh dear, offensive, how will we lefties ever get over it John?

It's not as though you've ever cast any aspersions at us is it?

Is it?


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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The Torygraph with a headline article that's surely just outrageous. It's just so, well, Fox News... What's worse is that it's an editorial slot, not a comment piece.

Mmm what they scared of?


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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The Torygraph with a headline article that's surely just outrageous. It's just so, well, Fox News... What's worse is that it's an editorial slot, not a comment piece.

Democracy? One party interfering in the internal affairs of another. In a similar way the Tories are trying to interfere with how their main opposition funds itself. If this were some third world country they'd be accusations of undemocratic practices from the self same people.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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This is more to do with the Telegraph turning into the Mail-online.  Little more.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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