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John Drake

Labour leadership contest

Which of the candidates would make you more likely to vote Labour if they win the leadership?  

55 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the candidates would make you more likely to vote Labour if they win the leadership?

    • Andy Burnham
      13
    • Yvette Cooper
      13
    • Jeremy Corbyn
      14
    • Liz Kendall
      7
    • I would never vote Labour
      8
  2. 2. Did you vote Labour in the 2015 General Election?

    • Yes
      26
    • No
      29
  3. 3. Do you have a vote in the Labour leadership election?

    • Yes
      11
    • No
      44
  4. 4. Who would you vote for in the Labour leadership election?

    • Andy Burnham
      15
    • Yvette Cooper
      13
    • Jeremy Corbyn
      18
    • Liz Kendall
      9


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I think there needs to be a re-think of the definition of "working class" to better align it to the realities of the world of work in the 21st century. To me "working class" means anyone who sells their labour in order to support themselves (i.e. they work for a living) and their family. If you restrict it to the old fashioned view of those who work manually with their hands then today only a very small proportion of the population is still "working class".  Almost all of those old jobs have gone, and those that remain have changed beyond recognition and will be much more technology based these days. Just look a t the car manufacturing industry, or car repairs for that matter. This broad definition of "working class" is who Labour ought to represent. 

To me this is exactly who the Labour Party was founded to represent. My paternal grandfather spent his life working for other people and renting social housing, my maternal grandfather was a small businessman (at times sole trader) who rented and eventually bought a house. Both were as staunch Labour voters as you could ever meet - to the point of being outraged that my old man voted SDP in 1983. Working people, working people, working people. 

 

Somewhere along the line the party allowed itself to be depicted as solely interested in minority issues (the richest 1%, the poorest 10%, race, gender, religion, sexuality) and blind to the needs of the vast majority. Partly that's a result of the Tories painting them that way, but there's an unfortunate element of truth to it - there are some within the party (and the left as a whole) that are only interested in those things.

 

The Labour Party really needs to find someone who can speak to those wider interests.


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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I cancelled my sub to the Labour party as soon as i  realised what Blair was all about. Blair babes

Cool Britannia, etc.Never voted since.

A complete waste of time.The bankers rule the world, Goldman Sachs and the like.They have politicians in their pockets.

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The SNP thrive on fueling nationalist feeling. How on earth does the Labour party replicate that, when it isn't a nationalist party?

That is exactly the how the Tories "nudged" the right wing press to present the SNP to the electorate.

If the SNP thrive purely on fueling nationalist feeling then what on earth would motivate this https://www.change.org/p/the-uk-government-allow-the-north-of-england-to-secede-from-the-uk-and-join-scotland

Social inequality keeps getting worse while the Tory media keeping "nudging" the masses through the media with benefits street stereotyping and aspirational hype. The lessons of the success of the socialist policies of the SNP and https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/camerons-nudge-that-knocked-democracy-down-a-summary/ need to be learned if the Labour party are to be an effective opposition. The real problem is that Labour are floundering around in a malaise of introspection with leadership candidates that really do not appear to be aware of how they were beaten much less what to do about it. Unfortunately for the Labour grass roots it is publicly clear how they were beaten. The Tories "nudged" the media about the Lib Dems, and the "danger" of an SNP led government. Labour were "nudged" out of the election and they now need a Leader who can clearly see that.

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To me this is exactly who the Labour Party was founded to represent. My paternal grandfather spent his life working for other people and renting social housing, my maternal grandfather was a small businessman (at times sole trader) who rented and eventually bought a house. Both were as staunch Labour voters as you could ever meet - to the point of being outraged that my old man voted SDP in 1983. Working people, working people, working people. 

 

Somewhere along the line the party allowed itself to be depicted as solely interested in minority issues (the richest 1%, the poorest 10%, race, gender, religion, sexuality) and blind to the needs of the vast majority. Partly that's a result of the Tories painting them that way, but there's an unfortunate element of truth to it - there are some within the party (and the left as a whole) that are only interested in those things.

 

The Labour Party really needs to find someone who can speak to those wider interests.

 

The Labour Party really needs to find someone who can speak to those wider interests.

 

That ground is already occupied.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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That is exactly the how the Tories "nudged" the right wing press to present the SNP to the electorate.

If the SNP thrive purely on fueling nationalist feeling then what on earth would motivate this https://www.change.org/p/the-uk-government-allow-the-north-of-england-to-secede-from-the-uk-and-join-scotland

Social inequality keeps getting worse while the Tory media keeping "nudging" the masses through the media with benefits street stereotyping and aspirational hype. The lessons of the success of the socialist policies of the SNP and https://kittysjones.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/camerons-nudge-that-knocked-democracy-down-a-summary/ need to be learned if the Labour party are to be an effective opposition. The real problem is that Labour are floundering around in a malaise of introspection with leadership candidates that really do not appear to be aware of how they were beaten much less what to do about it. Unfortunately for the Labour grass roots it is publicly clear how they were beaten. The Tories "nudged" the media about the Lib Dems, and the "danger" of an SNP led government. Labour were "nudged" out of the election and they now need a Leader who can clearly see that.

 

Its to be hoped ( or not really) that whatever decision is made, that it is based on facts not on some distorted inaccurate 19th century fiction, some faded caricature of "the working man". Making things up to get on a high horse about is not a sound platform for electoral victory.

 

The Scotialist policies you refer to are really nothing more than the chippy rantings of the Glasgow mob. They may have ousted Labour in Scotland and three or four people on here may wish they'd  had SNP candidates in England to vote for.  Would Corbyn do instead?  Doubt it.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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I cancelled my sub to the Labour party as soon as i  realised what Blair was all about. Blair babes

Cool Britannia, etc.Never voted since.

A complete waste of time.The bankers rule the world, Goldman Sachs and the like.They have politicians in their pockets.

The bankers are still being jailed in Iceland http://thelondonpost.net/iceland-begin-to-jail-bankers/ and the rest are hiding in London.

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Isn't that what Left Unity claims to be doing? How come they haven't swept into power on this apparently huge wave of popular support that exists out there that the Labour Party isn't tapping into?

 

Maybe it isn't actually there and this country is, on the whole, not very left wing at all.

As I said earlier in this thread, the UK is conservative with a small c. Labour ignore that at their peril.


I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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Or how out of touch the grassroots is with the mainstream British public, perhaps?

There are 250,000 Labour party members. That's a tiny fraction of the total electorate that Labour needs to impress in order to win a General Election.

I think it is delusional to imagine that where Ed Miliband failed, having shifted the party marginally leftward, Jeremy Corbyn will triumph by going the whole distance. But a Corbyn leadership may be an experience the Labour Party just has to put itself through, like the Foot leadership disaster in the 1980s, to have it rammed home to them how far distant they have become from the mass of people who have the power to put them back into government.

I don't get that. Can you give examples of how the party has gone left from Brown's days?

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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The Labour Party really needs to find someone who can speak to those wider interests.

 

That ground is already occupied.

By a party that's using the cut in child tax credits to fund a cut corporation tax?  I don't think so!


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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As I said earlier in this thread, the UK is conservative with a small c. Labour ignore that at their peril.

Yeah whilst Corbyn's policies on things like nationalised railways may receive some sympathy he will lose far more working class votes with his love of Islamism and the IRA, his wish for open borders and to scrap the monarchy. When did being socialist stop being about helping the poor and start being about wearing an identikit uniform of nonsense ideas

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Tony Blair? :unsure:

Yeah not sure you could ever call him left wing.

Homer: How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home winemaking course, and I forgot how to drive?

[

i]Mr. Burns: Woah, slow down there maestro. There's a *New* Mexico?[/i]

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Yeah not sure you could ever call him left wing.

I beg to differ. His 1997 government was by far the most left wing the country had seen in almost 20 years. It was only as the power went to his head in later years that he lost the plot. What he did manage to do was to portray Labour as moderatly left wing and therefore not scare the electorate.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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I actually think this whole thing could be a good thing for the Labour party. There really is a debate to be had about what it is and what it stands for. One thing it does show, to me at least, is that blowing in the wind is no longer an option. The party needs, indeed is crying out for, a leader with leadership.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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I think there is a lot of sense from Corbyn in this article, it is impossible to create wealth in isolation: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/it-is-a-myth-that-rich-people-are-the-only-wealth-creators-says-jeremy-corbyn-10407285.html


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Its to be hoped ( or not really) that whatever decision is made, that it is based on facts not on some distorted inaccurate 19th century fiction, some faded caricature of "the working man". Making things up to get on a high horse about is not a sound platform for electoral victory.

Not sure what you are getting at? Making what up?

 

The Scotialist policies you refer to are really nothing more than the chippy rantings of the Glasgow mob. They may have ousted Labour in Scotland and three or four people on here may wish they'd  had SNP candidates in England to vote for.  Would Corbyn do instead?  Doubt it.

Classic "reluctant Tory", balderdash and piffle. The SNP and their policies are the only real opposition at Westminster.

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The Labour Party really needs to find someone who can speak to those wider interests.

 

That ground is already occupied.

Behave yourself!


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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Had time to think of it now over the last couple of days.  If Cameron called a snap General Election for tomorrow I could see the Tories gaining far more seats due to the UKIP disappearance and Labour becoming a parody of itself.  I could even see the Lib Dems gaining more seats at Labour's expense as I can well believe more than a few who voted Labour two months ago wouldn't now, I'm one of them (although I still wouldn't vote Lib Dem)

 

The two biggest Bills of this calendar and Labour abstained on them just before the summer recess in such a manner of abject abandonment that the SNP were well within their rights to ask the Speaker if they could act as official opposition from the Labour front bench for the Finance Bill because they outnumbered Labour in the House.  So, that's the entire summer now with Labour on the back foot looking lost and weak while the Tories were able to walk through those Bills to the committee stage without serious opposition when, in reality, if Labour had three line whipped a vote against then the Tories would have struggled, especially in the Welfare Bill.  They would have succeeded in getting them through but then Cameron would have had to call in a number of favours to get all his MPs in to vote from their pre-holiday time-outs or commitments.


"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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If Brown had not bottled calling an election when the Tories were on their knees and would have lost yet another election and Cameron may not have continued as leader."a week is a long time in politics"


 Soon we will be dancing the fandango
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

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I would find it difficult to stay a member if the party returned to a Blairite party to get the not of Rupert Murdoch .I couldn't deal with it


 Soon we will be dancing the fandango
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

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I would find it difficult to stay a member if the party returned to a Blairite party to get the not of Rupert Murdoch .I couldn't deal with it

The only Blairite is Kendall and she's in a dismal 4th place. I think she and her supporters are utterly shocked, not only by Corbyn's support, but just how few people have any interest in her and her policies. They never truly appreciated just how many members were putting up with New Labour simply because they were desperate to get back into government. They honestly thought they held sway in the party. That realisation probably explains the venom coming from them in recent days.

Not for the first time John Prescott called it right this morning.


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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I think she and her supporters are utterly shocked, not only by Corbyn's support, but just how few people have any interest in her and her policies. They never truly appreciated just how many members were putting up with New Labour simply because they were desperate to get back into government. They honestly thought they held sway in the party. That realisation probably explains the venom coming from them in recent days.

 

 

Unfortunately though the labour members supporting Corbyn are out of step with the general public.

 

The Tories will be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of Corbyn leading the opposition. Their spin doctors will have a field day in raking up all of Corbyn's past speeches and views. He will be portrayed as the Anti-British, Pro-muslim, IRA supporting loonie and the Tory supporting press of Murdoch will pillory him for the next 5 years.

 

They will make a country under his rule seem so unsavoury that it will divide public opinion among traditional labour voters and have those who are traditional floating voters firmly reaching for their Blue rosetts next time. Labour dont have a cat in hells chance of regaining power.

No floating voter who switched from Labour to Tory this time will ever switch back under Corbyn.


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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Had time to think of it now over the last couple of days.  If Cameron called a snap General Election for tomorrow I could see the Tories gaining far more seats due to the UKIP disappearance and Labour becoming a parody of itself.  I could even see the Lib Dems gaining more seats at Labour's expense as I can well believe more than a few who voted Labour two months ago wouldn't now, I'm one of them (although I still wouldn't vote Lib Dem)

 

The two biggest Bills of this calendar and Labour abstained on them just before the summer recess in such a manner of abject abandonment that the SNP were well within their rights to ask the Speaker if they could act as official opposition from the Labour front bench for the Finance Bill because they outnumbered Labour in the House.  So, that's the entire summer now with Labour on the back foot looking lost and weak while the Tories were able to walk through those Bills to the committee stage without serious opposition when, in reality, if Labour had three line whipped a vote against then the Tories would have struggled, especially in the Welfare Bill.  They would have succeeded in getting them through but then Cameron would have had to call in a number of favours to get all his MPs in to vote from their pre-holiday time-outs or commitments.

 

Yes, it's difficult to imagine how they could have handled the situation any worse, although I can sort of understand what they (or rather Harriet Harmen) were trying to achieve. The Welfare Bill does contain some very good measures such as the stuff about apprenticeships. However, the tories bundled in a load of other, less welcome measures which need opposing. Labour were frightened of being shown as anti the good things and labeled pro welfare by the tory press so went down the abstention/amendment route when they should have voted against while stressing their support for the good parts of the bill. They really need to stop running scared of the tory press; they will never support them whatever they do, so it's pointless. One thing we do know is that with her complete lack of judgement Harriet Harmen would make an awful party leader. 

 

The other thing that gets me is that they have completely failed to learn from 2010 when a protracted leadership election left them rudderless and foundering for months and are doing exactly the same thing this time around, but with a good dose of bitter in-fighting thrown in. :(


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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