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John Drake

Labour leadership contest

Which of the candidates would make you more likely to vote Labour if they win the leadership?  

55 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the candidates would make you more likely to vote Labour if they win the leadership?

    • Andy Burnham
      13
    • Yvette Cooper
      13
    • Jeremy Corbyn
      14
    • Liz Kendall
      7
    • I would never vote Labour
      8
  2. 2. Did you vote Labour in the 2015 General Election?

    • Yes
      26
    • No
      29
  3. 3. Do you have a vote in the Labour leadership election?

    • Yes
      11
    • No
      44
  4. 4. Who would you vote for in the Labour leadership election?

    • Andy Burnham
      15
    • Yvette Cooper
      13
    • Jeremy Corbyn
      18
    • Liz Kendall
      9


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He has exacerbated the damage to London's architecture, destroyed the Skyline (in particular around St Paul's but also elsewhere), he's ridden roughshod over local communities in terms of planning applications, he's directly and deliberately encouraged the mass-selling of London to foreign 'investors' who are simply using this city as a safe deposit box, he's destroyed communities in the process, he's sold land assets to friendly organisations like Free Schools for less than market rates...I could go on. In fact, Christian Woolmar had an excellent piece recently about BoJo's actions as Mayor and put the direct cost to Londoners at about £600million.

 

For me though, the worst thing is the destruction of communities. I grew up in Acton, which was very working class albeit with some areas that were aspirational and others perhaps not so much. Of the kids I went to school with only one or two still live there and just a handful more are even in the local area. Most have relocated to the very edges of London or even further out into commuter towns. To live there now you have to be very well paid to afford even a bog-standard terraced house, or so poor that you qualify for one of the tiny number of social homes still to be found. The term social cleansing has been used a lot in recent years but it's absolutely bang on.

 

On the flip side, I'm struggling to think of even one positive thing Boris Johnson's achieved.

 

 

The dangleway sums up BoJo's tenure more than anything else ever could.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Jerry heartily sang the old socialist ditty down the pub after he had won. Yet he couldn't bring himself to sing the national anthem at the battle of Britain service.

The servicemen of that era fought for King and country, what a pity Corbyn didn't bear that in mind.

First official engagement as leader of HM Opposition and he's off to a flier.

My son served in and was severely injured in Afghanistan, I don't sing the national anthem either but I certainly don't discount the sacrifices my son and other men and women in the services have made. I rather resent the implication that left wingers are somehow less caring in this respect than those on the right. Edited by Phil

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

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No, McDonnell has made it clear that he think that a terrorist organisation is justified in using bombs and bullets to achieve its aims against his own country.

 

That is unacceptable, in my view, and makes him unfit for office, either in government or in the shadow cabinet.

 

Johnson's foibles are irrelevant by comparison.

 

And I'm not sure how someone who is a fool can successfully win an election against Ken Livingstone to become the Mayor of London.

Depends whether you think Northern Ireland should really be a part of the UK given that in the referendum, 26 counties voted for independence and only 6 voted to remain part of the UK. In most referendums the minority are obliged to concede to the majority. But not in the case of Ireland. The Orangemen threatened the British state if they didn't get their way.  The British state let them have their way and ushered in 75 years (on and off) of the troubles. Troubles caused not just by the fact of the British cave in, but by the actions of the Stormont government in enacting laws and drawing political boundaries that disenfranchised a large number of their citizens.And allowing employment practices that turned them into second class citizens.  It was bound to end in tears and it did.  I don't condone  the IRA's  actions, but I understand why they carried them out. And let's never forget that the start of the problem was Randolph Churchill playing "the Orange card" in order to win a general election for the Tories.  Ring any bells?.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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What did Thatcher do to the manufacturing sector in the UK?  How does anything she supposedly did create the trade gap you say exists and how did it contribute to the structural deficit? She left office in November 1990.

Read your history.  The "smokestack industries" as they were derisively called during the Thatcher era were allowed to fail and disappear, the "big bang" in the city made the country dependent upon financial services to earn any money.  And when that went #### up, there was no manufacturing industry to take up the slack thus the trade gap and the deficit.  Much of what's wrong with out country can be traced back to Thatcher.  My god she even invented soft ice cream!


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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You are avoiding the question!

 

I voted Tory at the last election for a number of reasons. I distinctly remember this board stating that it would support the introduction of a 'living wage' in replacement to Tax Credits as the employer should be forced to pay a wage rather than relying on the state to top up low wages; but as long as it didn't unfairly impact the less-well off. Now I am not sure if the Tories have achieved this without seeing a reduction in the take-home of the lesser paid people in society; probably not I am guessing having read a little around the subject. I don't think that is right...

Depends how many children people have in short. By 2020 most people will be better off with the living wage (but not if they have three or more children and possibly not if they work part time), but in the short term more people will lose out.

 

I voted Labour this year but between the national living wage as a carrot and Corbyn as a stick I'm considering switching to Conservative next time. The only off putting thing is Ian Duncan Smith's stance on disabilities. I definitely won't vote Labour whilst Corbyn is in power though

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Read your history.  The "smokestack industries" as they were derisively called during the Thatcher era were allowed to fail and disappear, the "big bang" in the city made the country dependent upon financial services to earn any money.  And when that went #### up, there was no manufacturing industry to take up the slack thus the trade gap and the deficit.  Much of what's wrong with out country can be traced back to Thatcher.  My god she even invented soft ice cream!

 

So basically you can't actually support any of your claims with fact?

 

Businesses fail because they are uneconomic, inefficient poorly managed and cannot compete.  How was it Thatcher's fault that UK industry had serious structural deficiencies?  How is it her fault that globalisation occured and the UK share of world wealth has shrunk accordingly?

 

Here's an interesting one for you. In the 2nd quarter of 1990 UK manufacturing output hit an all time peak.  This happened again in 2007. 

 

Between 1997 & 2007 labour productivity rose by 50%. The UK is the 6th largest manufacturer in the world.

 

Perhaps it's you who actually needs to go and look at the facts?

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My son served in and was severely injured in Afghanistan, I don't sing the national anthem either but I certainly don't discount the sacrifices my son and other men and women in the services have made. I rather resent the implication that left wingers are somehow less caring in this respect than those on the right.

 

Who mentioned a lack of caring or any section of the political spectrum?  Isn't Corbyn being incredibly hypocritical by swearing an oath of allegiance to the Crown? At least Sinn Fein stay away.

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He has exacerbated the damage to London's architecture, destroyed the Skyline (in particular around St Paul's but also elsewhere), he's ridden roughshod over local communities in terms of planning applications, he's directly and deliberately encouraged the mass-selling of London to foreign 'investors' who are simply using this city as a safe deposit box, he's destroyed communities in the process, he's sold land assets to friendly organisations like Free Schools for less than market rates...I could go on. In fact, Christian Woolmar had an excellent piece recently about BoJo's actions as Mayor and put the direct cost to Londoners at about £600million.

 

For me though, the worst thing is the destruction of communities. I grew up in Acton, which was very working class albeit with some areas that were aspirational and others perhaps not so much. Of the kids I went to school with only one or two still live there and just a handful more are even in the local area. Most have relocated to the very edges of London or even further out into commuter towns. To live there now you have to be very well paid to afford even a bog-standard terraced house, or so poor that you qualify for one of the tiny number of social homes still to be found. The term social cleansing has been used a lot in recent years but it's absolutely bang on.

 

On the flip side, I'm struggling to think of even one positive thing Boris Johnson's achieved.

 

Considering the colour of the political map in London, it's incredible he has achieved everything you say. What was Livingstone doing wrong to lose to him?

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Depends whether you think Northern Ireland should really be a part of the UK given that in the referendum, 26 counties voted for independence and only 6 voted to remain part of the UK. In most referendums the minority are obliged to concede to the majority. But not in the case of Ireland. The Orangemen threatened the British state if they didn't get their way.  The British state let them have their way and ushered in 75 years (on and off) of the troubles. Troubles caused not just by the fact of the British cave in, but by the actions of the Stormont government in enacting laws and drawing political boundaries that disenfranchised a large number of their citizens.And allowing employment practices that turned them into second class citizens.  It was bound to end in tears and it did.  I don't condone  the IRA's  actions, but I understand why they carried them out. And let's never forget that the start of the problem was Randolph Churchill playing "the Orange card" in order to win a general election for the Tories.  Ring any bells?.

What referendum? And it wasn't just the Orange movement that threatened the British state, there were significant elements within the British Army who were ready to fight home rule IIRC.

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You are avoiding the question!

 

I voted Tory at the last election for a number of reasons. I distinctly remember this board stating that it would support the introduction of a 'living wage' in replacement to Tax Credits as the employer should be forced to pay a wage rather than relying on the state to top up low wages; but as long as it didn't unfairly impact the less-well off. Now I am not sure if the Tories have achieved this without seeing a reduction in the take-home of the lesser paid people in society; probably not I am guessing having read a little around the subject. I don't think that is right...

Frank Field is usually pretty good for this sort of thing and he used figures from the HoC Library to work out that about 3million families will be £1,200 worse off because of the changes. Osborne's National Living Wage (sic) doesn't compensate for the loss of benefits. For the benefit of certain posters these are working people.


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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Considering the colour of the political map in London, it's incredible he has achieved everything you say. What was Livingstone doing wrong to lose to him?

I've answered that one earlier.


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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Frank Field is usually pretty good for this sort of thing and he used figures from the HoC Library to work out that about 3million families will be £1,200 worse off because of the changes. Osborne's National Living Wage (sic) doesn't compensate for the loss of benefits. For the benefit of certain posters these are working people.

The major disparity of course is that the NLW applies to the hourly rate of pay while tax credits apply to annual income. With the proliferation of part time working just because you are earning so much per hour it doesn't necessarily mean you can live off it unsupported.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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I've answered that one earlier.

 

Where? All those London boroughs that were red locally and nationally rendered utterly impotent by one man?

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The major disparity of course is that the NLW applies to the hourly rate of pay while tax credits apply to annual income. With the proliferation of part time working just because you are earning so much per hour it doesn't necessarily mean you can live off it unsupported.

 

Tax credits are one of the most dreadful mechanisms ever inflicted on the low paid.

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Frank Field is usually pretty good for this sort of thing and he used figures from the HoC Library to work out that about 3million families will be £1,200 worse off because of the changes. Osborne's National Living Wage (sic) doesn't compensate for the loss of benefits. For the benefit of certain posters these are working people.

 

Is that when the tax credits are cut or when the increasing in income tax allowance increase and NLW kick in?  

Edited by GeordieSaint

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It pays homage to the head of state.  Those who fought in WWII, were fighting for King and country.  ROYAL Air Force was our team in the Battle of Britain.  He's really not helping himself is he?

 

Yes, Corbyn should be singing these words:-

 

God save our gracious Queen

Long live our noble Queen

God save the Queen

Send her victorious

Happy and glorious

Long to reign over us

God save the Queen

O Lord our God arise

Scatter her enemies

And make them fall

Confound their politics

Frustrate their knavish tricks

On Thee our hopes we fix

God save us all

Thy choicest gifts in store

On her be pleased to pour

Long may she reign

May she defend our laws

And ever give us cause

To sing with heart and voice

God save the Queen

Not in this land alone

But be God's mercies known

From shore to shore

Lord make the nations see

That men should brothers be

And form one family

The wide world over

From every latent foe

From the assassins blow

God save the Queen

O'er her thine arm extend

For Britain's sake defend

Our mother, prince, and friend

God save the Queen

Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring

May he sedition hush

And like a torrent rush

Rebellious Scots to crush

God save the Queen

 

Twould be a smart political move.  ;) 

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Where? All those London boroughs that were red locally and nationally rendered utterly impotent by one man?

It's only a couple of pages back. Go have a look.


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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Is that when the tax credits are cut or when the increasing in income tax allowance increase and NLW kick in?  

No idea.


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/09/15/the-sun-newspaper-corbyn-privy-council_n_8138174.html?1442311368&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

 

 

The Sun's Tuesday front page has been rubbished by experts and even its own source, after it tried to smear new Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn by branding the republican a "hypocrite" for kissing the Queen's hand to secure more than £6m of taxpayer funds.

 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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So basically you can't actually support any of your claims with fact?

 

Businesses fail because they are uneconomic, inefficient poorly managed and cannot compete.  How was it Thatcher's fault that UK industry had serious structural deficiencies?  How is it her fault that globalisation occured and the UK share of world wealth has shrunk accordingly?

 

Here's an interesting one for you. In the 2nd quarter of 1990 UK manufacturing output hit an all time peak.  This happened again in 2007. 

 

Between 1997 & 2007 labour productivity rose by 50%. The UK is the 6th largest manufacturer in the world.

 

Perhaps it's you who actually needs to go and look at the facts?

In July 2015, the UK had a 50% trade deficit, we exported £22.8bn and imported £33.9bn.  (source: ONS)  In 2013, we had an annual deficit of £115bn, in 2014 that increased to £127bn, although it is expected to stay roughly the same this year.  The manufacturing heartlands were ripped out in the 80s and quite deliberately so in my opinion.  Thatcher would have happily seen every unionised trade destroyed simply to beat the unions.  She wholeheartedly believed that we should move to a services based economy, thinking catastrophically incorrectly that that was the only way to beat globalisation.

 

I offer in comparison Germany: £171bn annual trade surplus in 2013, rising to £191bn in 2014 and expected to keep rising.  Same constraints on the economies in the 80s plus Germany had reunification as a major financial millstone for well over a decade.  A heavy investment in tradeable industry plus some very shrewd politicking over the Euro has left Germany in the position of the European flat-track bully that no-one can touch.  It's seen as acceptable to sneer at Germany for being the EU trade bully but that's really just the 21st century equivalent of 100 years ago with the landed gentry sneering at industrialists with their petty money grubbing.  All it would take is a French and German unity to cripple the UK services market and the City especially by implementing their often considered tax on services done outside of the Euro in their countries.

 

Even if you include services into the mix, the net cash flow from the UK in 2013 was £75bn (2014 figures not released yet).  That's £75bn the economy has lost.  In the same timeframe, Germany had a net cash flow into the country of £179bn.  They beat us on both trade goods and services.

 

With all that in mind, don't forget that we had the added bonus to the UK exchequer of north sea oil.  So where's all that money gone?  Into the pockets of the minority.  In Norway, their government invested some of the oil revenues in a sovereign investment fund that conservatively owns 1% of all the world's stocks and is valued at 190% of Norway's GDP (2014 figures), in the UK the money was blown on tax cuts and sod all investment.

 

We now have the lowest corporation tax in the G20.  The lowest tax burden in the G7.  The lowest amount spent on state funded healthcare by any G7 nation by a long way (including the "die in a skip" US healthcare system).  The second lowest benefits per head of the G7.  The worst child mortality rate in Western Europe (25% higher than the average).  I could go on.

 

There you go, some facts for you.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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Yes, Corbyn should be singing these words:-

 

God save our gracious Queen

Long live our noble Queen

God save the Queen

Send her victorious

Happy and glorious

Long to reign over us

God save the Queen

O Lord our God arise

Scatter her enemies

And make them fall

Confound their politics

Frustrate their knavish tricks

On Thee our hopes we fix

God save us all

Thy choicest gifts in store

On her be pleased to pour

Long may she reign

May she defend our laws

And ever give us cause

To sing with heart and voice

God save the Queen

Not in this land alone

But be God's mercies known

From shore to shore

Lord make the nations see

That men should brothers be

And form one family

The wide world over

From every latent foe

From the assassins blow

God save the Queen

O'er her thine arm extend

For Britain's sake defend

Our mother, prince, and friend

God save the Queen

Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring

May he sedition hush

And like a torrent rush

Rebellious Scots to crush

God save the Queen

 

Twould be a smart political move.  ;) 

 

The last verse is particularly pertinent given the desire to defeat the SNP and the campaign to maintain the Union :tongue:

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Anyone think Corbyn will still be in charge of the Labour party by the time of the next General Election?


Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. (Susan Ertz)

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