Greece

[clwydianrange]

It looks like Greece have said no to austerity. So what they are saying is that they have no wish to change their ways on pensions, avoiding tax paying, early retirement and this will give them a stronger hand in negotiating with the banks so they can borrow more money to continue their ways with pensions, avoiding paying tax, early retirement. Am I missing summat here.

[John Drake]

Yes, I think you're missing quite a lot actually. You write as if Greece has not been enduring severe austerity for many years already.

The question is, how can Greece ever pay back its debts with an economy that would be doomed to permanent decline under the terms the so called Troika wish to impose.

And what burden of responsibility should those who made the irresponsible and unsustainable loans to Greece in the first place be forced to bear.

[ckn]

I'm of two minds here. I agree with John but then they have no desire to change their pension age from 57. I'm not sure I agree with countries being asked to write off the Greek debt when their citizens have been asked to take far more punishment. Even then, it's the poor in Greece who are taking the brunt, the wealthy simply avoid tax entirely, if they were forced to pay what they are supposed to by law then they'd have fewer problems.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

Greece should not have been allowed to have the Euro from the beginning. The Country has been run badly for years and allowing such things as shipping millionaires to pay no tax etc and to simply waste the money they have got from the EU is why its in the mess it is. As per usual, the Banks have made a heap of money from the loans and the Tax payers of Europe have seen there hard earned money wasted, trying to prop Greece up. Greece will never be able to pay its debts off and that was clear years ago. But the likes of Frau Merkel, the Banks and the Clowns at the EU have allowed the situation get worse by the day and thinking giving them more loans and telling them to save would work. Greece needs to start a fresh and much like Germany did after WW2 and the EU needs to force Greece to meet certain conditions on how it does things. The EU is a failure and a monster that often has no idea and goes from one disaster to the next. The only people that really have benefitted from the EU are washed up Politicians and the Banks. Once again our Politicians and the Banker friends profit at the expense of the population. 

[Trojan]

The winners from the Euro project are Germany.  They get a currency that allows them to sell their products throughout Europe at competitive prices.  Plus of course Italy, Spain, Portugal and yes Greece, are unable to devalue their currency to make their products more competitive.  I know for a fact that the Italians hate the Euro.  The same probably goes for the other southern European countries.  If Germany want the Euro to continue they are going to have to give a little or the whole thing will go mammaries up.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

Most Germans dont want the Euro and never have. Its just the Politicians and their friends at the Banks that want it and that have benefitted from it. The German people are fedup with the EU and especially with  Frau Merkel who keep wasting Tax payers money in trying to keep Greece in the EU.

[moorside roughyed]

Who invented the euro anyway?. What a 24 carat plonker.I'm glad we didn't get involved.

[Roughyedz]

Yes, I think you're missing quite a lot actually. You write as if Greece has not been enduring severe austerity for many years already.

The question is, how can Greece ever pay back its debts with an economy that would be doomed to permanent decline under the terms the so called Troika wish to impose.

And what burden of responsibility should those who made the irresponsible and unsustainable loans to Greece in the first place be forced to bear.

If you had a loan for £5,000 from your bank manager and then went back to him and said I dont want to pay you back , and in fact i am going to retire whilst you go on working for another 8 years, and at the same time I want you to give me another £5,000 to p*** against the wall like I did the last £5,000   what do you think the bank manager would say to YOU ....... whilst you were sat on ur ###### and NOT working to earn any income in order to pay back what you had already borrowed ???

On the other hand the UK borrowed millions from our good friends in the good old USA in 1940 ish to pay for the cost of the WAR ...... assume it was at quiet a steep interest rate as WE are ALL IN THE UK STILL PAYING THIS BACK , 75 years later, IN fact the USA made vast amounts of money out of the 2nd World War , on the other hand the UK lost and is still losing vast amounts of money . . . because we believe in paying your debts

[JohnM]

Yes, I think you're missing quite a lot actually. You write as if Greece has not been enduring severe austerity for many years already.

The question is, how can Greece ever pay back its debts with an economy that would be doomed to permanent decline under the terms the so called Troika wish to impose.

And what burden of responsibility should those who made the irresponsible and unsustainable loans to Greece in the first place be forced to bear.

Yes, I think you're missing quite a lot actually. You write as if Greece has not been enduring severe austerity for many years already.

The question is, how can Greece ever pay back its debts with an economy that would be doomed to permanent decline under the terms the so called Troika wish to impose.

And what burden of responsibility should those who made the irresponsible and unsustainable loans to Greece in the first place be forced to bear.

From 2011

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-10-27/europe-leaders-set-50-greek-writedown-1-4-trillion-in-debt-crisis-fight

[The Future is League]

Its a simple fact of life that if you borrow money you have to pay it back.

[tonyXIII]

Its a simple fact of life that if you borrow money you have to pay it back.

 

So, all those RL clubs that went bust were a figment of my imagination?

 

That's what is happening with Greece. It's a nation going broke. The creditors will be fuming, but why did they lend so much money so casually in the first place?

 

The EU is a political union. The euro was supposed to create an economic union. It didn't! It was a politically motivated exercise from day one. No great surprise it has failed. The only surprise is that it took so long.

 

As the Chinese say, "May you live in interesting times." It's certainly going to be that here.

 

Now, where's my ATM card?

[The Future is League]

So, all those RL clubs that went bust were a figment of my imagination?

 

That's what is happening with Greece. It's a nation going broke. The creditors will be fuming, but why did they lend so much money so casually in the first place?

 

The EU is a political union. The euro was supposed to create an economic union. It didn't! It was a politically motivated exercise from day one. No great surprise it has failed. The only surprise is that it took so long.

 

As the Chinese say, "May you live in interesting times." It's certainly going to be that here.

 

Now, where's my ATM card?

If Greece can't pay back the money it owes it shouldn't have borrowed the money in the first place.

The first rule of business is that you can't have more going out than coming in.

In the sporting world in the German bundesliga the clubs are not allowed to make a loss, otherwise they are relegated.to a regional league.

The German bundesliga model is one that Rugby League should follow in my opinion.

[Bedford Roughyed]

https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff

 

Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations.

[Bedford Roughyed]

The banks and TV/media pushed for yes.  The people said No.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff

There is so much wrong with what he says I dont know where to start! To Claim Germany doesnt pay debts is a bit of a joke when most nations dont. But Germany for example is estimated to have payed over 40 Billion American Dollars for WW2 renumications to the likes of Greece, Poland, Israel as well as being asset stripped after WW2 by the Allies, with many top scientists and engineers ending up in France, USA, Russia. The Problems Greece has, are the faults of the Greek politicians over a Long period of time. Allowing millionaires not to pay tax for example is just very stupid and one of many reasons the Greeks have no Money.

[Bedford Roughyed]

http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5965.html

 

The fact of the matter is no country, not Germany, not France, would voluntarily put up with the sort of “adjustment” that has been forced on Greece, for the good reason that gratuitous great depressions are not actually helpful to an economy. Creditors have had five years to mismanage Greece and they’ve done a startlingly effective job. Syriza has had five months to object. However much you may dislike their negotiating style, however little you think of their competence, Greece’s catastrophe was not Syriza’s work. If creditors respond to Syriza’s “intransigence” with maneuvers that cause yet more devastation, that will be on the creditors. Blaming victims for having insufficiently perfect leaders is standard fare for apologists of predation. Unfortunately, understanding this may be of little comfort to the disemboweled prey.

 

[Bedford Roughyed]

There is so much wrong with what he says I dont know where to start! To Claim Germany doesnt pay debts is a bit of a joke when most nations dont. But Germany for example is estimated to have payed over 40 Billion American Dollars for WW2 renumications to the likes of Greece, Poland, Israel as well as being asset stripped after WW2 by the Allies, with many top scientists and engineers ending up in France, USA, Russia. The Problems Greece has, are the faults of the Greek politicians over a Long period of time. Allowing millionaires not to pay tax for example is just very stupid and one of many reasons the Greeks have no Money.

 

"Think about the London Debt Agreement of 1953, where 60% of German foreign debt was cancelled and its internal debts were restructured."  So is he wrong about that?

[Phil]

It's called democracy, Syriza asked the Greek electorate if they wanted cuts and austerity, the people said no. They asked them again in a referendum, they said no once again.

 

Syriza are asking why they should impose austerity on their own people in order to bail out rich (primarily German) banks. I'm asking the same question, why should they?

[RidingPie]

I'll add that, while I definitely believe people should pay their debts back (and I've always managed it thus far), there has to be a level of responsibility on both sides. If I go in to a bank and ask for a personal unsecured load of £35 million then I'd be laughed out of the bank pretty quickly. The lenders have to put their hands up for taking a ridiculously bad risk.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

"Think about the London Debt Agreement of 1953, where 60% of German foreign debt was cancelled and its internal debts were restructured."  So is he wrong about that?

So one bit he got right. And most of that debt was made up by the Allies who won both wars, but also commited war crimes, went well over the top on what they wanted Germany to repay-especially after WW1. Its not as if Germany has not been paying its debts, as he made out.

[dhw]

Most Germans dont want the Euro and never have. Its just the Politicians and their friends at the Banks that want it and that have benefitted from it. The German people are fedup with the EU and especially with  Frau Merkel who keep wasting Tax payers money in trying to keep Greece in the EU.

In many ways the introduction of the Euro meant in many areas the banks would be less profitable. The Euro has resulted in lower interest ratrs, once again not good news for the banks in several lines of buisiness. How did the German electorate show their alleged dislike for the Euro? If anything the opposite of what you say is true.

[JohnM]

I'll add that, while I definitely believe people should pay their debts back (and I've always managed it thus far), there has to be a level of responsibility on both sides. If I go in to a bank and ask for a personal unsecured load of £35 million then I'd be laughed out of the bank pretty quickly. The lenders have to put their hands up for taking a ridiculously bad risk.

That may be so but the lenders - and that includes you if you contribute to a pension scheme - took a huge hit in 2011, details of which I posted earlire

[Lounge Room Lizard]

It's called democracy, Syriza asked the Greek electorate if they wanted cuts and austerity, the people said no. They asked them again in a referendum, they said no once again.

 

Syriza are asking why they should impose austerity on their own people in order to bail out rich (primarily German) banks. I'm asking the same question, why should they?

The Greek Government over the years has mismanaged things badly. Did Greece really Need to borrow so much Money, especially when it was clear they would never pay it back? What has Greece done to properly try and sort itself out?  Greece should be paying its debts back as it agreed to the loans etc. But the EU and the European central Banks should have done far more in helping Greece  sort its problems out. The EU should for me never have allowed Greece in to the EU with its economy and also how it managed itself. Its clear from even somebody like me that the greek economy is weak and that its political structure and Management has been very weak for decades. The Banks have scammed everybody not just the Greek People. The German, French and British People have been scammed by the Banks and Politicians who have made Europe a mess pretending it wanted a United Europe when their are other motives instead in place.

[dhw]

It's called democracy, Syriza asked the Greek electorate if they wanted cuts and austerity, the people said no. They asked them again in a referendum, they said no once again.

 

Syriza are asking why they should impose austerity on their own people in order to bail out rich (primarily German) banks. I'm asking the same question, why should they?

Because if they do not their standard of living will fall even further due to the cost of borrowing to rise significantly and fast. The source of Greece's problems lay clearly with Greece. If financial institutions were not willing to aid bailing out Greece it would be in an even worse state than it is now. Greece has shown in it's current state it cannot be trusted when people try to help it.

 

The ruling government did not hold the majority of seats, it received just over 1/3 of the vote, the referendum falls well below international standards. This is not a modern democracy and that is before we even begin discussing the shady elements of this dangerous coalition.

[RidingPie]

That may be so but the lenders - and that includes you if you contribute to a pension scheme - took a huge hit in 2011, details of which I posted earlire

 

as I said I don't disagree with any of that. Whilst my money may have been lent to them (actually thats unlikely because most of my pension fund is in property), I don't think I can be considered a lender as it wasn't up to me who that money was lent to. If you're giving what amounts to unsecured loans you'd better be very sure of who you're giving your money too!

 

This should be seen as a lesson on all sides.