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Bedford Roughyed

In Support Of Tube Drivers

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The technology certainly exists but none of it is in place on the tube system (DLR excepted). To upgrade the whole tube network will take many, many years and cost millions. But that can only replace the drivers, not the other staff.

Its not in place yet but the provision is there for it to be retrofitted, and with every new carriage built and station upgraded that retrofitting becomes easier & quicker. The drivers would be the first to go, then technology like CCTV, sensors & secondary doors (along with a whole host of other technologies no doubt) would then see guards going from platforms. They're already phasing out ticket offices and replacing them with ticket machines only. 

Eventually they will be left with just a few safety / security staff at each station and i'm sure TFL will then ensure they have enough 'managers' to cover these positions should these staff ever go on strike in the future.


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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It's not really relevant. Research scientists train for far longer than doctors but get a fraction of the pay.

 

There are some complicating factors but generally speaking tube drivers and doctors get paid well because they have strong unions, research scientists get paid poorly because they have weak (or no) unions.

 

That very much depends on what career choices the research scientist makes ( I speak from experience).

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The market dictates the pay, unless it upsets you, then the market is wrong and we need some sort of collective wage control?

With relation to tube drivers; it is not controlled by the market.  Hence almost any excuse being used to going out on strike without any regard for the problems and disruption it may cause to the people that essentially pays their over inflated wages and generous benefits.

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The technology certainly exists but none of it is in place on the tube system (DLR excepted). To upgrade the whole tube network will take many, many years and cost millions. But that can only replace the drivers, not the other staff.

 

And of course, it's much cheaper to lay people off and instead write an open cheque every year to whichever of the large IT/ outsourcing companies gets the contract to provide and update the software. As the old tale has it: "Good luck getting those robots to go on strike!" - "Yeah, and good luck getting them to pay taxes as well."


It's not a question of coming down to earth, Mr Duxbury. Some of us, Mr Duxbury, belong in the stars.

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That very much depends on what career choices the research scientist makes ( I speak from experience).

 

As do I.

 

There are very few, if any, positions, whether in industry or academia, where a research scientist will make as much money as a doctor. If you are referring to tenured lecturers or lead scientists in a pharma lab, they are more equivalent to a consultant doctor. The most direct comparison would be a post-doc to a junior doctor or staff doctor. The latter are paid more, have some degree of job security and a far greater chance of promotion.

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As do I.

 

There are very few, if any, positions, whether in industry or academia, where a research scientist will make as much money as a doctor. If you are referring to tenured lecturers or lead scientists in a pharma lab, they are more equivalent to a consultant doctor. The most direct comparison would be a post-doc to a junior doctor or staff doctor. The latter are paid more, have some degree of job security and a far greater chance of promotion.

Post-docs are notoriously badly paid as is academia in general, one of the reason why I avoided both when I completed my PhD. There are certainly benefits of working in a university environment but a generous salary is not one of them.

 

I suppose it very much depends what type of research scientist you are talking about, someone who moves into a clinical research role in industry could be earning an equivalent salary to that of a medic within 10-15 years and go on to far exceed it if they so choose and take the appropriate career steps. A lab bench scientist most likely will not unless they move into a managerial role leading a large industry lab.

 

A senior CRA would be earning around the £35k mark and that's a relatively junior role in the clinical research scientist ladder.

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Some peoples bin men might save lives but the ones we get are the laziest awkward, scruffiest tw@s going. That is when they decide to turn up of course.

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Interesting that it's the drivers who are being singled out even though it was all the tube staff who went on strike just because they are the ones who happen to be reasonably well paid. The usual suspects in the press have also skewed the issue to make it out to be about pay when it's not. It's about their working terms and conditions being drastically altered without any proper consultation. But that doesn't fit their agenda, so they just pretend it's about well paid drivers being greedy.

What is "proper consultation" ? . Did the unions "properly" consult TFL before calling such a strike? I think the answer to the second question is obvious. To say it is not about money is being inaccurate, it is largely about pay though for the train drivers, if it was about ancillary staff then the strike would not have happned.

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And of course, it's much cheaper to lay people off and instead write an open cheque every year to whichever of the large IT/ outsourcing companies gets the contract to provide and update the software. As the old tale has it: "Good luck getting those robots to go on strike!" - "Yeah, and good luck getting them to pay taxes as well."

Most of the contracts are fixed price. The problem is not the outsourced companies but the public sector  not having the skills to managing requirements and contract. Technology projects in the public have an appalling record for running over budget and being late. Driver-less underground trains would also be safer.

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Driver-less underground trains would also be safer.

Seem to remember an incident a few years back. The unions were claining that it was safer to have drivers in the cabs and in control right up to where one train didn't stop and hit the back of another because the driver had just hung his lunchbag over the 'dead man' handle so he could put his feet up, read the paper (or whatever ot was he was doing instead of actually driving). If I recall correctly the driver then said most drivers did this as holding the dead man handle made their arms ache.


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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Post-docs are notoriously badly paid as is academia in general, one of the reason why I avoided both when I completed my PhD. There are certainly benefits of working in a university environment but a generous salary is not one of them.

 

I suppose it very much depends what type of research scientist you are talking about, someone who moves into a clinical research role in industry could be earning an equivalent salary to that of a medic within 10-15 years and go on to far exceed it if they so choose and take the appropriate career steps. A lab bench scientist most likely will not unless they move into a managerial role leading a large industry lab.

 

A senior CRA would be earning around the £35k mark and that's a relatively junior role in the clinical research scientist ladder.

 

Clinical research personnel in industry (like CRAs) are not research scientists. They are administrative and support staff for clinical trials but they do not conduct the research. So while it is possible for someone trained as a research scientist to earn a similar wage to a doctor, it won't be for conductng research, which is what they trained to do for longer than doctors trained to be doctors.

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Seem to remember an incident a few years back. The unions were claining that it was safer to have drivers in the cabs and in control right up to where one train didn't stop and hit the back of another because the driver had just hung his lunchbag over the 'dead man' handle so he could put his feet up, read the paper (or whatever ot was he was doing instead of actually driving). If I recall correctly the driver then said most drivers did this as holding the dead man handle made their arms ache.

 

Oh, I see we have another member of the 'seem to remember/a mate told me/urban myth/believe all I read/I know some people/I see it all the time/sample size n=1' club.

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What is "proper consultation" ? . Did the unions "properly" consult TFL before calling such a strike? I think the answer to the second question is obvious. To say it is not about money is being inaccurate, it is largely about pay though for the train drivers, if it was about ancillary staff then the strike would not have happned.

Well the ballot for this strike was supported by a record number of staff and, as I stated earlier, every level of employee was involved in the walk out.

 

As for consultation, TFL refused to discus the issue with the four unions for 3 months and then, on the Monday lunchtime made a new offer at a meeting at ACAS. This was accompanied by a deadline of 6pm that evening. They knew full well it was impossible for the union negotiators to meet that, they'd have to examine it, consider the implications and present it to the reps. They offered to return at noon Tuesday but TFL refused. How's that for "proper consultation"?


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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Oh, I see we have another member of the 'seem to remember/a mate told me/urban myth/believe all I read/I know some people/I see it all the time/sample size n=1' club.

As opposed to your 'can't form an opinion unless it's been approved by the consensus commitee/disagree with things just because..../would back the SS if they went on strike/group think BS.

Have an A1 day now. :)

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Clinical research personnel in industry (like CRAs) are not research scientists. They are administrative and support staff for clinical trials but they do not conduct the research. So while it is possible for someone trained as a research scientist to earn a similar wage to a doctor, it won't be for conductng research, which is what they trained to do for longer than doctors trained to be doctors.

At a lower level their scientific input will be more limited but as they move up through the ranks it will be increasingly important as they design scientific/clinical studies and programs of studies to demonstrate the safety and efficacy of medicines. CRAs will need a very strong research/scientific background to succeed. A CRA will need a detailed therapeutic knowledge to be able to review data, looks for safety signals and to understand the study protocol to ensure the medics are doing what they should be.

 

Research scientists don't just work in labs playing with a selection of pipettes, glassware and electronic toys. Clinical research is what happens after the lab folk have found something interesting.

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As opposed to your 'can't form an opinion unless it's been approved by the consensus commitee/disagree with things just because..../would back the SS if they went on strike/group think BS.

Have an A1 day now. :)

Thanks for your contribution. I think you're President of the of the 'seem to remember/a mate told me/urban myth/believe all I read/I know some people/I see it all the time/sample size n=1' club aren't you? Or have you been expelled for dabbling with evidence and facts?

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At a lower level their scientific input will be more limited but as they move up through the ranks it will be increasingly important as they design scientific/clinical studies and programs of studies to demonstrate the safety and efficacy of medicines. CRAs will need a very strong research/scientific background to succeed. A CRA will need a detailed therapeutic knowledge to be able to review data, looks for safety signals and to understand the study protocol to ensure the medics are doing what they should be.

 

Research scientists don't just work in labs playing with a selection of pipettes, glassware and electronic toys. Clinical research is what happens after the lab folk have found something interesting.

 

I work in clinical research and have a lab based PhD so I do understand the relationship between the two. I take your point that some aspects of certain roles within industry clinical departments can be considered research, but I think it requires a looser interpretation of the term.

 

In any case, I stand by my original point there is no direct correlation between length of training and remuneration.

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I work in clinical research and have a lab based PhD so I do understand the relationship between the two. I take your point that some aspects of certain roles within industry clinical departments can be considered research, but I think it requires a looser interpretation of the term.

 

In any case, I stand by my original point there is no direct correlation between length of training and remuneration.

Ditto, I have a lab based PhD, worked in laboratory research in industry for a number of years then for the last 10+ years have worked in clinical research.

 

I cannot understand how you would classify development of new medicines, designing trials (experiments) to show how/if they work and whether they are safe to use, other than as research.

 

I've developed a lot of new skills to complement my scientific background, but I still use my scientific knowledge on a daily basis. I stand by my original assertion that a research scientist can earn as much as a medic if they choose to pursue a certain path in research. The length of training is somewhat debatable, as for both a research scientist and a medic the university based part of the training is just a starting block and both will continue learning/training throughout their career.

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The London Underground is like a throwback to 1970s Britain where the unions are concerned.  They have no sympathy from me.  My sympathy lies entirely with the customers who are trying to go about their daily business and the tourists who bring much needed income to the capital. 

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Oh, I see we have another member of the 'seem to remember/a mate told me/urban myth/believe all I read/I know some people/I see it all the time/sample size n=1' club.


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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Well it appears my seem to remember is actually true (as opposed to your leftie bull#### rant).

OK I got it slightly wrong in that a safety device kicked in and stopped the train before it ploughed into the back of another after it went through a red light.

The driver was jailed in October 1994 for it.

Do you feel stupid now?

or is spouting drivel a prerequisite for being a member of the loonie left


Lets Get Brexit Done !!!!!

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Well it appears my seem to remember is actually true (as opposed to your leftie bull#### rant).

OK I got it slightly wrong in that a safety device kicked in and stopped the train before it ploughed into the back of another after it went through a red light.

The driver was jailed in October 1994 for it.

Do you feel stupid now?

or is spouting drivel a prerequisite for being a member of the loonie left

You've got to feel for him and his 400 and odd supporters

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Thanks for your contribution. I think you're President of the of the 'seem to remember/a mate told me/urban myth/believe all I read/I know some people/I see it all the time/sample size n=1' club aren't you? Or have you been expelled for dabbling with evidence and facts?

When do you collect the cap and gown for services to patronising, pretentious, self deluding gibberish?

Must be soon?

Before I leave you though, time for an oldie...'how many members of Left Unity does it take to change a lightbulb?' 'Don't be ridiculous, they will never change anything'

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Well the ballot for this strike was supported by a record number of staff and, as I stated earlier, every level of employee was involved in the walk out.

 

As for consultation, TFL refused to discus the issue with the four unions for 3 months and then, on the Monday lunchtime made a new offer at a meeting at ACAS. This was accompanied by a deadline of 6pm that evening. They knew full well it was impossible for the union negotiators to meet that, they'd have to examine it, consider the implications and present it to the reps. They offered to return at noon Tuesday but TFL refused. How's that for "proper consultation"?

Not every level of employee was involved in the walkout. TFL were willing to discuss but not on the terms the Unions and vice versa. That deadline was not impossible, if it was the only reson being was that there was no genuine effort to avoid industrial action. Your 'proper consultation' ignores the reality of the situation, all the unions involved have previous form in this area. 

 

Are you still sticking with your point that the strike was not chiefly about money?

Edited by dhw

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