When you need a spead sheet to explain its time to rethink

[Wellsy4HullFC]

If it was simple why would the RFL feel they had to put out a spreadsheet to explain it?????

What is the spreadsheet explaining exactly other than how the fixtures are decided?

[scotchy]

If you think people go to watch England RU friendlies because "winning that game is important", you couldn't be further from reality.

Ive no real interest in whatever stereotype about England RU you are about to put forth. It might be fun to make fun of the rah rahs, but it doesn't make us better and it doesn't make it true.

[scotchy]

I never said that, so your question is redundant.

whats all this about then?

 

You've misinterpreted that though. Everyone aims for the GF. Not everyone can get there. When they realistically can't get there, then what? What purpose do fans have to turn up and support their club when it doesn't matter? 12 teams cannot be within reach of the playoffs for 23-27 games a year. You've got to make as many games an event as possible. You aren't going to attract or keep people coming with continuous dead-rubber matches. That's what licensing was like to a lot of people and why they hated it. It was boring.

Like it or not, not everyone wants to watch rugby league because it's a game of rugby league, and I think this is what some people struggle to understand. Many want an event. They want a battle with purpose. They can watch a rugby match any weekend, why is it so important they turn up this week in particular for this game? Sporting integrity and just winning any old game isn't what creates interest.

If all this is true,

 

Why would anyone attend any of Hull FC's games? what is the point in even bothering playing the Les Catalans games? Whats the point at all of most the bottom 8s?

[scotchy]

And yet it gets huge crowds still, generates a lot of income and many clubs find it a reward to reach it?

does it? you don't make that much money off the Europa league and the crowds are pretty mediocre by football standards. Many clubs also find it a hindrance to their actual ambitions.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I'm not talking about the middle 8s because until that's been done it's all just speculation. I was meaning the super 8s and bottom 8s not being competive. Leeds saints Wigan one will win the super 8s the rest are making up the numbers so not very competive. Then the bottom 8s take fev for example they now have virtually 7 dead rubber games.

It's easy to say the favourites are going to win right towards the back end of the competition! It's not exactly an indicator of competitiveness!

Fev are guaranteed a top four spot. However, they are playing for a home fixture in the semi finals and the easiest fixture (of which in this case there is a clear advantage to playing the team in 4th over the team in 3rd in terms of how good they are).

[thundergaz]

It's easy to say the favourites are going to win right towards the back end of the competition! It's not exactly an indicator of competitiveness!

Fev are guaranteed a top four spot. However, they are playing for a home fixture in the semi finals and the easiest fixture (of which in this case there is a clear advantage to playing the team in 4th over the team in 3rd in terms of how good they are).

At the start of the season Leeds saints or Wigan was going to win the super 8s so no change their after 23 games. So fans are going to pay £18 plus a game to watch fev play 7 extra games to just get an home fixture in the semis? lol.Just look at fevs crowd yesterday and I expect many other clubs in the bottom 8s crowds will drop off too once their safe or guaranteed the semis. Which most are all of the above now.Also same with the super 8s like teams like yours that can't make the top 4 etc etc and same goes for the middle 8s after a few games.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

whats all this about then?

At what point in there did I say people "only want an event, they only want a battle with a purpose, that sporting integrity and just winning do not create interest.[/]"?

That's why it's redundant.

If all this is true,

Why would anyone attend any of Hull FC's games? what is the point in even bothering playing the Les Catalans games? Whats the point at all of most the bottom 8s?

Because people feel an allegiance to their club and support them through to the end. You won't build that allegiance up if they're never getting anything worth turning up for.

Believe me, I don't think you'll find many people saying they've been to the KC this season expecting to be entertained by the rugby on show!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

At the start of the season Leeds saints or Wigan was going to win the super 8s so no change their after 23 games. So fans are going to pay £18 plus a game to watch fev play 7 extra games to just get an home fixture in the semis? lol.Just look at fevs crowd yesterday and I expect many other clubs in the bottom 8s crowds will drop off too once their safe or guaranteed the semis. Which most are all of the above now.

Do fans not have a season ticket? If the split hadn't happened, what reason would fans be coming as they're not going to finish top!

Warrington were one of the favourites. Suddenly they're not on that list. It only takes one slip up now for the favourites to miss the GF.

[scotchy]

At what point in there did I say people "only want an event, they only want a battle with a purpose, that sporting integrity and just winning do not create interest.[/]"?

That's why it's redundant.

Because people feel an allegiance to their club and support them through to the end. You won't build that allegiance up if they're never getting anything worth turning up for.

Believe me, I don't think you'll find many people saying they've been to the KC this season expecting to be entertained by the rugby on show!

haven't attendances fallen at Hull this year? didn't they have something to play for up until now?

[thundergaz]

Do fans not have a season ticket? If the split hadn't happened, what reason would fans be coming as they're not going to finish top!

Warrington were one of the favourites. Suddenly they're not on that list. It only takes one slip up now for the favourites to miss the GF.

Yes true with season tickets but they don't cover the 8s comps. I know your trying to build this new structure up and I don't blame you as the idea was good but it hasn't changed much to be honest. Same teams still too good same teams still poor same teams fighting for promotion same teams fighting to stay up. All I'm saying is this comp is no different to licensing only more damaging for various reasons. I'm not saying the comp shouldn't stay either as it needs to be given time like anything else.

[Dave T]

Yes true with season tickets but they don't cover the 8s comps. I know your trying to build this new structure up and I don't blame you as the idea was good but it hasn't changed much to be honest. Same teams still too good same teams still poor same teams fighting for promotion same teams fighting to stay up. All I'm saying is this comp is no different to licensing only more damaging for various reasons. I'm not saying the comp shouldn't stay either as it needs to be given time like anything else.

at the top you could argue things are similar, but the most radical part of this isvthe qualifiers, and based on Leigh's cup run, the games look very interesting.

The mass changes were never going to be in the top, why would they?

[Adelaide Tiger]

Scotchy, You speak about the NFL being simply with so many rounds then the play offs. How about explaining to the non NFL supporter about how the wildcards work. Or don't they use wildcard teams anymore?

For those that are interested here is the format for the Europa League for 2015/16:

First Round Qualifying - 102 teams. Including 29 domestic cup winners, 35 domestic league runners up (but not including Leichtenstein), 3 teams from Fair Play League

Second Round Qualifying - 66 teams. Including 51 winners from first tound. 7 more domestic cup winners, 2 domestic league runners up (from specified nations) and 6 domestic league 4th placed teams (from specfied nations)

Third Qualifying Round - 58 teams. Including 33 winners from second round. 5 domestic cup winners from specified nations, 9 domestic league third place from specified nations, 5 from domestic fourth place from soecified nations, 3 from domestic fifth place from specfied nations, 3 from domestic sixth place frpm specified nations

Play off round - 44 teams. Including 29 winners from Third Qualifying round and 15 losers from Champions League third qualifying round

Group Stage - 48 teams. Including 22 winners from play off round. 10 losers from Champions League play off, 13 domestic cup winners from specified nations, 1 domestic fourth place team from specified nation, 3 domestic fifth place teams from specified nations, previous season Europa League winner

Knockout Phase - 32 teams. Including 12 group winners and 12 group runners up, 8 third place teams from Champions League group stage

Rules for knockout round of 32 - 12 group winners plus 4 third place teams with best records are seeded. Seeded teams drawn against unseeded teams. Teams from same group and same association cannot de drawn against each other.

Rules for knockout round of 16 - currently seeding criteria is unspecified. Teams from same associations cannot be drawn against each other.

It makes the 3x8 format look like a Janet and John book!

[Krytensmate]

I really don't know why any of you are humouring him

As for the other one , he's just digging a bigger and bigger hole

[The Parksider]

Exactly , under licencing half of SL and practically all of the Championship would have lost interest weeks go

Under regular 1 up , 1 down half of SL and practically all of the Championship would have lost interest weeks ago

 

You need to be careful about "lost interest".

 

Your club are one club that has created interest by their brilliant performances and their charge towards Superleague.

 

But I see no great interest in the Championship below the Bradford/Leigh battle in terms of crowds. 

 

There's even less interest in Bradford this year who are winning, than last year when they were losing.

 

Equally the "interest" hasn't manifested itself amongst the bottom four SL clubs.

 

And the interest is down and disappearing at Hull and Les catalans as Scotchmeister says.

 

The crowds aren't more interested at Cas or Fartown

 

Sadly you had only one eye open and brain switched off when you made the above comments.

 

I fear for Leigh if they fail to get in Superleague, listening to Brian Smith yesterday he's desperate to beat you off and his team is improving.

 

I fear if Leigh don't go up (which would be a travesty) even the interest at Leigh may drop?.

 

No abusive reply please.

 

ANYWAY FWIW I describe the new system as the clubs playing 23 rounds then the top eight in SL play for the Super league trophy, whilst the bottom four in SL play the top four in the Championship for 4 SL places.

 

This is designed to create "interest"

[Krytensmate]

My post was in response to posters on here declaring they were ' interested ' and discussing the upcoming games even if their clubs weren't involved

I didn't say people wouldn't attend , I said they'd have lost interest , but I'me not going to argue the difference , we now have certain posters quoting quite ridiculous analogies to try to ' win ' their point of view and just making themselves look stupid again

So in best Dragons Den fashion

I'me out

[Wellsy4HullFC]

haven't attendances fallen at Hull this year? didn't they have something to play for up until now?

They have, because believe it or not there are other factors that determine attendance and not just one that you've made a strawman argument out of.

Three times you've tried to make this argument. Hopefully by the third time you'll realise I never said "only".

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Yes true with season tickets but they don't cover the 8s comps. I know your trying to build this new structure up and I don't blame you as the idea was good but it hasn't changed much to be honest. Same teams still too good same teams still poor same teams fighting for promotion same teams fighting to stay up. All I'm saying is this comp is no different to licensing only more damaging for various reasons. I'm not saying the comp shouldn't stay either as it needs to be given time like anything else.

Seriously, what were you expecting after just one season with very similar squads?

Leeds finished 6th last year and are now top. That's a fairly big swing.

[zorquif]

With respect to journos 'not understanding' the new system - I think we must be the only sport in the world who will put up with such shoddy work. It would take ten minutes to sit down and understand it. It is their job to know about it and explain it. Sounds to me that the majority of them couldn't be bothered...

[Dave T]

With respect to journos 'not understanding' the new system - I think we must be the only sport in the world who will put up with such shoddy work. It would take ten minutes to sit down and understand it. It is their job to know about it and explain it. Sounds to me that the majority of them couldn't be bothered...

hey, they aren't cheerleaders you know!!!

The whole 'thick Northerner' routine that rl fans play up to really really bugs me.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

With respect to journos 'not understanding' the new system - I think we must be the only sport in the world who will put up with such shoddy work. It would take ten minutes to sit down and understand it. It is their job to know about it and explain it. Sounds to me that the majority of them couldn't be bothered...

It seems almost cultural in rugby league to pretend you either don't know what's going on our ridicule the organisers.

In fact, this whole topic is started on the premise that the poster is ridiculing the RFL and pretending you need a spreadsheet to know what's going on.

[thundergaz]

Seriously, what were you expecting after just one season with very similar squads?

Leeds finished 6th last year and are now top. That's a fairly big swing.

Yes I get your point wellsy. But ever since the funding was raised for winning the league it was obvious saints Wigan and Leeds we're going to go for it. Where in other seasons they were just happy winning the GF prize money. I don't expect teams like hudds etc to get a sniff of the title anymore under this new system. I think Leeds saints and Wigan will battle it out for the foreseeable future and pull further away from the rest. Wigan have had by their standards a pretty poor season but look where they are in the league. They are still better than the majority of teams and that's why I think a big gulf will open up over the coming seasons between these 3 and the rest.

[scotchy]

Scotchy, You speak about the NFL being simply with so many rounds then the play offs. How about explaining to the non NFL supporter about how the wildcards work. Or don't they use wildcard teams anymore?

For those that are interested here is the format for the Europa League for 2015/16:

First Round Qualifying - 102 teams. Including 29 domestic cup winners, 35 domestic league runners up (but not including Leichtenstein), 3 teams from Fair Play League

Second Round Qualifying - 66 teams. Including 51 winners from first tound. 7 more domestic cup winners, 2 domestic league runners up (from specified nations) and 6 domestic league 4th placed teams (from specfied nations)

Third Qualifying Round - 58 teams. Including 33 winners from second round. 5 domestic cup winners from specified nations, 9 domestic league third place from specified nations, 5 from domestic fourth place from soecified nations, 3 from domestic fifth place from specfied nations, 3 from domestic sixth place frpm specified nations

Play off round - 44 teams. Including 29 winners from Third Qualifying round and 15 losers from Champions League third qualifying round

Group Stage - 48 teams. Including 22 winners from play off round. 10 losers from Champions League play off, 13 domestic cup winners from specified nations, 1 domestic fourth place team from specified nation, 3 domestic fifth place teams from specified nations, previous season Europa League winner

Knockout Phase - 32 teams. Including 12 group winners and 12 group runners up, 8 third place teams from Champions League group stage

Rules for knockout round of 32 - 12 group winners plus 4 third place teams with best records are seeded. Seeded teams drawn against unseeded teams. Teams from same group and same association cannot de drawn against each other.

Rules for knockout round of 16 - currently seeding criteria is unspecified. Teams from same associations cannot be drawn against each other.

It makes the 3x8 format look like a Janet and John book!

the nfl is 8 divisions in 2 conferences. The playoffs are the 8 division winners plus the next 4 best records in each conference.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Yes I get your point wellsy. But ever since the funding was raised for winning the league it was obvious saints Wigan and Leeds we're going to go for it. Where in other seasons they were just happy winning the GF prize money. I don't expect teams like hudds etc to get a sniff of the title anymore under this new system. I think Leeds saints and Wigan will battle it out for the foreseeable future and pull further away from the rest. Wigan have had by their standards a pretty poor season but look where they are in the league. They are still better than the majority of teams and that's why I think a big gulf will open up over the coming seasons between these 3 and the rest.

So you're basically saying those teams were just coasting and you were happy with that, but now that performance in the league means more, you're unhappy that teams are trying harder?

Huddersfield are favourites to finish 4th. That means they're one game away from the GF. How is that not having a sniff?

Personally, I think you have decided you don't like this system and are looking for any way possible to justify that opinion. A lot of what you're saying is contradictory and basically judged on a perception of what you think will happen being somehow different to what was happening anyway.

Some seasons have a group of teams that break away. That's the nature of sport. I don't think that will happen every year and I think it's naïve to think it will. We get the same predictions for this "breakaway" every year. Apparently Wire were a shoe-in with the other three for the top four spots. Apparently the same six clubs were supposed to be dominating those top spots every year since 2009. It rarely happens, and when it eventually does, people cry about "predictability" like it happens all the time!

They are the three biggest clubs in the game. Eventually they were gonna finish to three.

[scotchy]

They have, because believe it or not there are other factors that determine attendance and not just one that you've made a strawman argument out of.

Three times you've tried to make this argument. Hopefully by the third time you'll realise I never said "only".

it's not a straw man. You assertion was that people were attracted by this meaning and purpose we have forced in to the season and that people were put off by the boring lack of purpose and meaning. I'm asking you were these people are?

I'm using hull as an example because they have gone from what is apparently a position where every minute mattered to one where none do. So why hasnt the every minute mattering part had the effect you state? Is there anywhere that any of your claims have been backed up?

[thundergaz]

So you're basically saying those teams were just coasting and you were happy with that, but now that performance in the league means more, you're unhappy that teams are trying harder?

Huddersfield are favourites to finish 4th. That means they're one game away from the GF. How is that not having a sniff?

Personally, I think you have decided you don't like this system and are looking for any way possible to justify that opinion. A lot of what you're saying is contradictory and basically judged on a perception of what you think will happen being somehow different to what was happening anyway.

Some seasons have a group of teams that break away. That's the nature of sport. I don't think that will happen every year and I think it's naïve to think it will. We get the same predictions for this "breakaway" every year. Apparently Wire were a shoe-in with the other three for the top four spots. Apparently the same six clubs were supposed to be dominating those top spots every year since 2009. It rarely happens, and when it eventually does, people cry about "predictability" like it happens all the time!

They are the three biggest clubs in the game. Eventually they were gonna finish to three.

Again I agree with everything you say. As for this system I'm not a fan no but neither was I a fan of licensing. I just think clubs need stabability not jeopardy and yes licensing brought that but I don't think it was done properly if it had of been I think it would of been very successful. Yes this system does bring competitive games but it doesn't also same as licensing. I just think this new system as more damages for clubs than licensing ever did. I just feel clubs will over spend and maybe not be here in ten years time with this new system where as licensing protected clubs from this case scenario.