Our modern caring society

[ckn]

Two stories today just really annoyed me about the real lack of empathy in society, especially the state run bits of it.

 

First one is just the police showing absolutely no empathy.  Yes, the car was uninsured but publicly shaming homeless people is not right.

 

Second one is someone fined £330 for stealing a 75p Mars Bar because they were hungry with their benefits stopped.  In all reality, this means that she will go to jail as this money can't be deferred with non-payment resulting in jail time, if she can't afford a 75p chocolate then she's not going to afford £330p.  She admitted the theft, what's wrong with the police giving a caution?  Surely this shows a huge lack of empathy on the part of the police, the CPS for pursuing it to court and the magistrate for not giving a straight absolute or conditional discharge rather than fine.

[JohnM]

Appalling way to treat people.. Aren't our police wonderful?  They could have easily pointed her - or taken her - to the Trusell Trust in Kidderminster: http://kidderminster.foodbank.org.uk/ or taken the Wakefield couple to CAP http://www.capcare.org/

 

Fortunately, there are people like this to restore the balance http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3056421/Teenage-Aldi-worker-18-went-extra-mile-helped-pensioner-95-shopping-carried-walked-way-home-door.html

 

Meanwhile, the cops are nowhere to be seen when this happens just three miles from here. http://www.louthleader.co.uk/news/local/travellers-staying-in-mablethorpe-speak-out-1-6904975 This lot can perfectly well afford to stay at a proper site but here thye sit, blocking two car parks, staying for free, and nothing being done. Costing us, the taxpayer a fortune that could be better spent elsewhere. Pubs and shops have shut to avoid trouble and robbery. Where are Boris's water cannons when you need them?

 

And yes, that IS a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser SP15 NHJ (and its new twin axle caravan)  illegally occupying the car park. ####.

[gingerjon]

There must be some course where the police tweeters go to learn that patter cos most of the forces seem to have the same approach. I guess they could always claim it's just top bantz.

[JohnM]

They've been watching themselves on TV too much.

[Trojan]

Two stories today just really annoyed me about the real lack of empathy in society, especially the state run bits of it.

 

First one is just the police showing absolutely no empathy.  Yes, the car was uninsured but publicly shaming homeless people is not right.

 

Second one is someone fined £330 for stealing a 75p Mars Bar because they were hungry with their benefits stopped.  In all reality, this means that she will go to jail as this money can't be deferred with non-payment resulting in jail time, if she can't afford a 75p chocolate then she's not going to afford £330p.  She admitted the theft, what's wrong with the police giving a caution?  Surely this shows a huge lack of empathy on the part of the police, the CPS for pursuing it to court and the magistrate for not giving a straight absolute or conditional discharge rather than fine.

On the second one presumably the magistrate was a Tory shopkeeper! 

[back to the future]

On the second one presumably the magistrate was a Tory shopkeeper! 

Good God man give it a rest

So stupid things like this never happened under Terrible Tony or Gormless Gordon

Its pathetic/nah rephrase that its Childish!

[Bedford Roughyed]

As usual I'd say try and find the actual court judgement.  They often vary greatly to what's reported.

[JohnM]

i belive that year after year our society is more caing overall, though the police must find it hard, given the things and people they have to deal with. just look at the support McMillan Cancer Care gets for example. im involved with organisations that raise money for the RNLI, First Responders, Air Ambulance, St Barnabas Hospice, all humanitarian causes that no govt could anywhere nearly as effectively, in my view. Others on here support other causes, im sure. as our society becomes more money and time affluent in general, then the more people in general seem ready to help the less fortunate.

[ckn]

i belive that year after year our society is more caing overall, though the police must find it hard, given the things and people they have to deal with. just look at the support McMillan Cancer Care gets for example. im involved with organisations that raise money for the RNLI, First Responders, Air Ambulance, St Barnabas Hospice, all humanitarian causes that no govt could anywhere nearly as effectively, in my view. Others on here support other causes, im sure. as our society becomes more money and time affluent in general, then the more people in general seem ready to help the less fortunate.

I disagree.  There's far less community these days.  For example, in the 80s, I remember the community spirit during the miners' strike and other times.  It's very noticeable that there's a gap between "them and us" that I've never seen in my life.  The only thing that's better these days is that it's far easier to contribute outside of your community through the internet and easier web publicity.  And I don't fall into the narrow thinking that it's all the Tories' fault, we had 13 years of Labour government where community spirit still kept going downwards.

 

It's something I've been noticing more and more, maybe it's come from age, but the hostility I'm seeing towards those who aren't "us" is increasing, be it immigrants, travellers, homeless people, people of other religions, people who vote for other parties and so on.  A couple of weeks ago I heard someone I've known for years who is South African ranting about all these "bloody scroungers" in the Calais immigrant camps, he really didn't get that he's only here because society's far more tolerant of his particular brand of immigrant.

 

If you claim benefits then you're a scrounger.  Poverty porn is rife on telly looking down on those who haven't or at the tiny minority who are actually scamming the system.  Then the councils are looking for loophole after loophole to avoid having to house homeless people, for example most councils refuse to find accommodation for single soldiers who have to leave the army when their barracks are in their area, all they'll do is give these people leaflets for the nearest homeless shelter.

 

In the two stories I posted, a single bit of humanity from anyone in the chain and the stories could have been so different.  For example, how difficult is it for the police to work with homeless charities when removing the cars of homeless people rather than just turfing them out.  Here's another example I remember from a couple of years ago of the police confiscating homeless people's sleeping bags, possessions and food.  That practice continues according to homeless charities in London but the media have grown bored of the stories so no longer report them.  What the f*** are these people supposed to do?  Snap out of it and suddenly become multi-millionaire bankers?  They're homeless, ffs...

 

Finishing the start of the last paragraph before I started ranting... The first story could have been the police confiscating the car because it was uninsured and on the public highway but the local homeless shelter and council getting them emergency shelter for the night and help in getting accommodation.  The second story could have been the police and store refusing to press charges but ensuring that the woman was taken to the local places as John mentions above.

 

On the point about there probably being more to the story, as far as I'm concerned, even if you're the most notorious mass murderer in the world you shouldn't be facing criminal sanctions of this disproportionate nature for a 75p Mars Bar.  The Magistrate's comment says it all really, he just didn't believe someone would steal because they were hungry.  Many stores have a prosecute at all costs policy to discourage shoplifters but then there should always be exceptions to even the hardest of policies.

 

On your list of charities, all hugely worthy charities but:

- I remember reading a few years ago that we are the only G7 nation that relies on charity funding to keep its coastguard going.

- The air ambulance should be 100% state funded.  For it to be anything else is just as daft as selling advertising space on soldiers' helmets.  It's utterly absurd.

 

Charity has its place, and the world would be a sadder place without well-meaning people putting their effort, enthusiasm and money into well-targeted areas, but there are definitely things that charity does now that are ridiculous for the state not to cover.

[Phil]

Just on the air ambulance, yes it should be 100% state funded but you know what would happen. Some bead counter in an office would work out that it's "under utilised" between 2:00 and 6:00 am and cut its funding by 17%

Off topic I know but the people who run it are aware of this and want to keep it out of the state system.

[Phil]

Double post

[JohnM]

It goes without saying that you disagree. That does not make you right, though of course there is nothing wrong having a belief and only presenting  evidence that you think supports it without considering any evidence to the contrary.

 

However, we have to question your judgement when you present such badly-flawed documents like Corbyn's Northern Future in support of your cause.

 

Coastguards is not a charity. It is part of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, which in itself is an executive agency of the Department for Transport .See https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/maritime-and-coastguard-agency

 

I realise  that you believe in the omnipotence of the state, however costly and inefficient but the RNLI, one of 61 lifeboat services in the UK, values its independence from tax-trousering govt.

 

In fact, other G7 countries have  organisations similar to the RNLI. e.g Société Nationale de Sauvetage en Mer

 

In addition, the RNLI operate in Ireland north AND south.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are confusing "community" with "caring"

[gingerjon]

It goes without saying that you disagree. That does not make you right, though of course there is nothing wrong having a belief and only presenting  evidence that you think supports it without considering any evidence to the contrary.

 

However, we have to question your judgement when you present such badly-flawed documents like Corbyn's Northern Future in support of your cause.

 

Coastguards is not a charity. It is part of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, which in itself is an executive agency of the Department for Transport .See https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/maritime-and-coastguard-agency

 

I realise  that you believe in the omnipotence of the state, however costly and inefficient but the RNLI, one of 61 lifeboat services in the UK, values its independence from tax-trousering govt.

 

In fact, other G7 countries have  organisations similar to the RNLI. e.g Société Nationale de Sauvetage en Mer

 

In addition, the RNLI operate in Ireland north AND south.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are confusing "community" with "caring"

 

RNLI.  Got some interesting stories about them as well.

 

 

Make chuggers look like decent human beings.

[Methven Hornet]

Second case sorted because "there are no borders on solidarity". Although I'm not sure Rev Stu would appreciate being referred to as a "nationalist".

The fund stands at £13,275 at the time of posting, 2,655% funded.

[JohnM]

RNLI.  Got some interesting stories about them as well.

 

 

Make chuggers look like decent human beings.

naturally you could, not least because of your political views. So lets have them, or are they just stories?

[gingerjon]

naturally you could, not least because of your political views. So lets have them, or are they just stories?

 

I'm not sure what my political views have to do with the RNLI.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Plenty of the independent lifeboat teams only came into existence because the RNLI pulled out of that area, using budgets/stats etc to justify pulling out.

 

I trust the RNLI more than some of the local teams, some seem only to exist because of a local ego...

[Saint Toppy]

Two stories today just really annoyed me about the real lack of empathy in society, especially the state run bits of it.

 

First one is just the police showing absolutely no empathy.  Yes, the car was uninsured but publicly shaming homeless people is not right.

 

Second one is someone fined £330 for stealing a 75p Mars Bar because they were hungry with their benefits stopped.  In all reality, this means that she will go to jail as this money can't be deferred with non-payment resulting in jail time, if she can't afford a 75p chocolate then she's not going to afford £330p.  She admitted the theft, what's wrong with the police giving a caution?  Surely this shows a huge lack of empathy on the part of the police, the CPS for pursuing it to court and the magistrate for not giving a straight absolute or conditional discharge rather than fine.

The first one with the car, probably the wrong course of action from the police. Yes the car was uninsured and illegally parked on the public highway but you'd have thought they would have just told them to move the car off  the public highway to a safe location where it wasn't likely to cause any public nuisance.

 

The second story the newspaper paints a 1 sided story and portrays her as a complete victim. It doesn't say why she's not entitled to benefits any more (what did she do to lose them ?), nor does it say whether this woman has a history of theft or other criminal behaviour that warrants such a largte fine, knowing that it will likely end up in her being jailed. I think i'll reserve judgement on criticising the magistrates until we know the full facts of ther case.

[Saint Toppy]

 

 

On your list of charities, all hugely worthy charities but:

- I remember reading a few years ago that we are the only G7 nation that relies on charity funding to keep its coastguard going.

- The air ambulance should be 100% state funded.  For it to be anything else is just as daft as selling advertising space on soldiers' helmets.  It's utterly absurd.

 

 

I've often wondered why the lottery commission never set up as one of the good cause funds and "Emergency Services fund" ?

Even a small percentage of the lottery income would be enough to pay for the air ambulances, lifeboats, mountain rescue teams etc. each year.

Even if the Government can't / wont fund them, they play such a vital life saving part of society then there has to be a means of ensuring they can function 24/7. I can't think of a better way of spending the lottery grants than this.

[Saintslass]

Two stories today just really annoyed me about the real lack of empathy in society, especially the state run bits of it.

 

First one is just the police showing absolutely no empathy.  Yes, the car was uninsured but publicly shaming homeless people is not right.

Taking the photo was unnecessary and the force has subsequently apologised for the tweet.  The rest of what went on was absolutely correct.

 

 

 

Second one is someone fined £330 for stealing a 75p Mars Bar because they were hungry with their benefits stopped.  In all reality, this means that she will go to jail as this money can't be deferred with non-payment resulting in jail time, if she can't afford a 75p chocolate then she's not going to afford £330p.  She admitted the theft, what's wrong with the police giving a caution?  Surely this shows a huge lack of empathy on the part of the police, the CPS for pursuing it to court and the magistrate for not giving a straight absolute or conditional discharge rather than fine.

This kind of story is actually nothing new.  There is a history in this country of punishing stealing sometimes in ways that are way OTT.  I worked at a mental health unit back in the 1980s which was one of the old style asylums (it has subsequently been demolished).  In there was a lady in her 70s who had been sent to Garlands for stealing a cabbage when she was a teenager.  She had never left as it was quite often the case that people were sent to mental health institutions as a punishment for theft, getting pregnant 'out of wedlock' and other minor infringements.  Heck, we once would send people to Australia for stealing a loaf.  Of course that we now generally fine people for petty theft doesn't make this particular case right but it does suggest that the issue is more cultural rather than an indicator that we have suddenly lost empathy or that benefits sanctions have something to do with it, which is what the article seems to imply (and we don't know why her benefits were sanctioned). 

[JohnM]

I'm not sure what my political views have to do with the RNLI.

Considering Asch conformity experiments will help. Also may help in the Labour Leadership topic, too.

not forgetting Lee Ross, either, which is more to the point.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Ross

[Jeff Stein]

Saw both sides tonight. Driving home tonight the car in front of me on a country lane crashed at high speed. The driver was cut quite badly, but given the state his car was in, it could have been much worse. Another three cars stopped so that their occupants could help me take care of the driver until the emergency services arrived. Most other cars did turns in the road to go back the way they came. One bloke didn't want to do that. He drove through the debris, edged round the crash gesticulating at us and opened his window as he slowly drove past to give us a gobful for holding him up!

[WearyRhino]

Saw both sides tonight. Driving home tonight the car in front of me on a country lane crashed at high speed. The driver was cut quite badly, but given the state his car was in, it could have been much worse. Another three cars stopped so that their occupants could help me take care of the driver until the emergency services arrived. Most other cars did turns in the road to go back the way they came. One bloke didn't want to do that. He drove through the debris, edged round the crash gesticulating at us and opened his window as he slowly drove past to give us a gobful for holding him up!

In many countries it's actually a crime not to stop at the scene of an accident and help.

[WearyRhino]

The state of this country makes me want to vomit.

 

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/m-scared-life-streets-Man-cut-throat-avoid/story-27623747-detail/story.html

[shrek]

Seeing lots of signs springing up around Wigan for "The Deal", which sounds a lot like the "Big Society" which was presumably to toxic to roll out in a Labour stronghold.

 

Be interesting to see how it pans out, I'm sceptical as to how much support it will get, seems to be as much being spent on branding to make sure people don't confuse it with "the big society" as there is on resouces to make it work.