Saintslass Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 None of which counters my point. We haven't deployed several ships. We aren't doing the bulk. The Germans commitment to the operation was chastised yet it is double what we are managing. Two ships is double two ships? Your maths is a bit off. Here are some stats for you, about what the UK is doing, from the BBC website today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34139960 How much is Germany spending? As I say, willy waving isn't productive. We are doing our part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 Two ships is double two ships? Your maths is a bit off. Here are some stats for you, about what the UK is doing, from the BBC website today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34139960 How much is Germany spending? As I say, willy waving isn't productive. We are doing our part. We sent one ship. We brought that ship back. We sent another one. They managed 2 at the same time. My maths appears better than yours. We are doing something. I'm suggesting we could do more. With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 We sent one ship. We brought that ship back. We sent another one. Can you provide a link to support that? I can't find anything that tells me we brought one back and replaced it with another. We are part of a joint venture of 20 ships patrolling and providing rescue. I think that is sufficient in terms of the patrol/rescue element of the crisis, whether we are using one or two ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Latest from the Guardian (interesting posts beneath the article) - Franco German 'pact' to push for EU wide quotas: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/germany-france-eu-refugee-quotas-migration-crisis#comment-58750818 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methven Hornet Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Just to keep John happy - Ruth Davidson MSP @RuthDavidsonMSP 39m39 minutes ago The UK I know has always shouldered its burden in the world. DfID is doing life-saving work abroad but we can - & must - do more at home 1/2 Ruth Davidson MSP @RuthDavidsonMSP 38m38 minutes ago 2/2 This is not an immigration issue, it's a humanitarian one, and the human response must be to help. If we don't, what does that make us? Now Ruth Davidson is as hard-right as anyone in Cameron's cabinet in Westminster, often embarrassingly so, and she could be using the refugee issue, like Cameron, in the hope that it finds popular support and gives right wing conservatism a much-needed boost in Scotland. Yet she chooses not to, she chooses to join the consensus formed by all our parliamentary parties, our faith organisations, the local authorities, the Scottish Council for Refugees and civic Scotland in general, in order to organise Scotland's response. Crucially, she uses her position as Tory leader to put pressure on Cameron to accept his humanitarian responsibilities. It is not often that any Tory politician earns my respect but she has to be admired today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 Can you provide a link to support that? I can't find anything that tells me we brought one back and replaced it with another. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hms-enterprise-to-replace-hms-bulwark-in-the-Mediterranean http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/23/uk-pulling-back-from-migrant-rescue-with-hms-enterprise-deployment http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/27/hms-bulwark-replacement-has-yet-to-rescue-any-migrants-in-Mediterranean http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/21/britain-replaces-migrant-search-and-rescue-ship-with-smaller-naval-vessel http://navaltoday.com/2015/06/23/hms-enterprise-to-replace-hms-bulwark-in-the-med/ http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/britain-slammed-over-claims-new-5925735 With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 We are part of a joint venture of 20 ships patrolling and providing rescue. I think that is sufficient in terms of the patrol/rescue element of the crisis, whether we are using one or two ships. Whether 1 or 2 ships is sufficient wasn't the point, but you happily have skipped by that repeatedly. I'd also dare suggest that a small survey ship is at the bottom end of what we could do. With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hms-enterprise-to-replace-hms-bulwark-in-the-Mediterranean Fair enough although I see you forgot to include the reference to the 'next stage' of what was then the proposed response, namely to challenge the traffickers, and also that Bulwark was removed for planned maintenance. So the exchange in vessels had nothing to do with us not doing our bit, or indeed not doing enough (because clearly Enterprise has been involved directly in rescuing migrants and not doing what it was originally tasked to do as part of the European wide plan), but simply because one had to be maintained so we replaced it with another which was appropriate to the plan in hand. I see no reason for your earlier post on this matter. We are doing our bit in rescue and in challenging the traffickers. There are 19 other ships involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Whether 1 or 2 ships is sufficient wasn't the point, but you happily have skipped by that repeatedly. I'd also dare suggest that a small survey ship is at the bottom end of what we could do. But as one of your links says, our survey ship was sent as the next step of the European plan of action. It has been overtaken by events but that has not stopped its crew from rescuing migrants from the Med. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Even Piers Morgan in the Daily Mail is more sympathetic than some people on here. Cameron and Obama love to act the big brave boys on the global stage when it comes to standing up to terrorism. They’ll order fighter jets and drones to rain down bombs on people’s heads. Yet when it comes to stopping little children dying as they try and escape both the same terrorism and the military efforts to combat it, the same two men have shown themselves to be little more than timid, callous cowards. I thought it'd be a cold, dark day in hell before I agreed wholeheartedly with Morgan but on this he could be writing my opinion word for word. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 Someone says the UK is doing a bulk of the work in the Med. I say they are not. Someone says the 2 ships Germany has deployed is a poor commitment. I say that it is double what we have deployed. You say I am wrong. Germany have deployed 2 ships. We have deployed one. Which bit of that is wrong? With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Even Piers Morgan in the Daily Mail is more sympathetic than some people on here. I thought it'd be a cold, dark day in hell before I agreed wholeheartedly with Morgan but on this he could be writing my opinion word for word. You are confusing sympathy with rational thought. Since you cannot see into the minds and lives of the people who post on here you have no idea where their sympathies lie. What you do see, however, are some people wanting to discuss the practical realities rather than emotional responses. My earlier link to the most recent Guardian article about the Franco-German pact has gone unnoticed but in it is a clear signal by both governments that economic migrants will be returned home. That in itself is recognition that not all these migrants are refugees. Also, an amazing number of them are fit young men, as I've said before. Yet nobody seems to think that is a tad suspicious. If they are fit, young Syrian men then they should be back home fighting for their country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Someone says the UK is doing a bulk of the work in the Med. I say they are not. Someone says the 2 ships Germany has deployed is a poor commitment. I say that it is double what we have deployed. You say I am wrong. Germany have deployed 2 ships. We have deployed one. Which bit of that is wrong? Whoosh. You ignored my response completely. No point in me saying anything further if you aren't bothered about responding to what I have already written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 Whoosh indeed. With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 More Conservatives coming out to say we should do more. Suggestions that Cameron will change tack. With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 You are confusing sympathy with rational thought. Since you cannot see into the minds and lives of the people who post on here you have no idea where their sympathies lie. What you do see, however, are some people wanting to discuss the practical realities rather than emotional responses. My earlier link to the most recent Guardian article about the Franco-German pact has gone unnoticed but in it is a clear signal by both governments that economic migrants will be returned home. That in itself is recognition that not all these migrants are refugees. Also, an amazing number of them are fit young men, as I've said before. Yet nobody seems to think that is a tad suspicious. If they are fit, young Syrian men then they should be back home fighting for their country. I had promised myself I'd treat you like I had you on ignore (I can't as I'm an administrator and need to see everything) but I just can't resist that invitation. I am treating this rationally. Cause -> effect. Let's dispassionately discount the refugees and look at the problem from a world stability viewpoint: The cause is quite blunt, our overt actions and inaction in the area has destabilised the place so much that we just walked away, sticking our fingers in our ears going "la, la, la, not our problem now!". Do you honestly think ISIS would be a problem if the US and UK were still in Iraq in force? Do you honestly think they'd even exist if we'd left Iraq well enough alone in 2003? We first caused the problem by taking down a largely ineffective dictator then walked away when it became boring for us leaving a vacuum that has dragged the entire region into chaos, seen the near extinction of Christianity in Iraq and the brutal genocide of entire cultures. Bush Sr and Major in 1991 called it right by not taking down Saddam Hussein, that was actually masterfully played on a diplomatic and regional stability front, unfortunately Bush Jr and Blair didn't get the reasons why he was left in power and acted like petulant bullies not caring about the consequences. We then decided to interfere elsewhere by supporting the Arab Spring of wannabe dictators who were calling for "democracy" when their view of democracy was one man, one vote and they were that one man. And then, when things went pear shaped we walked away again pretending it wasn't our problem. If we don't intervene militarily now then there are likely to be further consequences. As ISIS grows, Syria is more likely to fall. Look at Syria's neighbours. Our NATO allies Turkey who are under immense pressure and are not likely to be able to continue to resist without aid. Lebanon which is still a bit of a basket case but is a far better neighbour to Israel now than any time since the creation of modern Israel, that's a very easy target for ISIS. Then you have Jordan, again one of our allies, they have neither the capacity or capability to defend themselves against ISIS without external assistance. Finally, you have Israel who just will not tolerate any ISIS incursions, and remember the Israelis have nukes and the political will to use them, they will not sit back and allow an ISIS neighbour with access to chemical and biological weapons. Then think about the very late 1990s and early 2000s, the Taliban in Afghanistan becoming an extremist power, including the very symbolic destroying of world heritage sites and the world sitting back and saying "oh that's terrible" then doing nothing. Look at ISIS now, they're right about where Afghanistan was in 1999/2000 and what happened in September 2001? I mentioned the world heritage sites, what ISIS are doing, what the Taliban did in 2001, it's eerily coincidental and probably about the same power stage for both organisations. A warning from history? So, again, what's Cameron doing about it? Nothing beyond a real-terms trivial military airstrike capacity against ISIS. We continue to do nothing despite having an almost picture perfect repetition of what happened in Afghanistan happening again in the Iraq/Syria area but with far greater consequences for the region. Thankfully Afghanistan is quite contained in many areas, Iraq and Syria aren't. The ISIS boil on the bum of humanity and the Syrian civil war can be quite neatly pointed at us in the west with our interference and refusal to take responsibility for the consequences. We cause the problem but then whine like spoiled brats when someone points out the human suffering caused by our failings. Cameron's whinings that we're doing something is pathetic, we're doing nothing beyond the absolute minimum that our treaties require. We are a first world, UN Security Council permanent member. We either step up and accept that responsibility or concede that we're just pretending we give a damn about the world and resign, retreating to our little border where foreigners start and end at the English Channel. We continue to do nothing and the flood of refugees is just going to be the start. But then many people will bleat on about Britain being "full" and the refugees being "not our problem" and that we're already doing lots. I genuinely think this is our last warning to actually do something about it before it becomes irretrievable and the problems come to us in terrorist attacks using chemical and biological weapons. Again, historically, this is very much the pattern of the Fall of Rome. Selfish, narcissistic centralists sitting back and saying "not our problem" when the barbarian hordes were swarming the outer reaches until it was far too late. There you go, political realities, all tied in with historical references. Your views? "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Official Parliamentary petition. Just shy of 250,000 signatures. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 You are confusing sympathy with rational thought. Since you cannot see into the minds and lives of the people who post on here you have no idea where their sympathies lie. What you do see, however, are some people wanting to discuss the practical realities rather than emotional responses. My earlier link to the most recent Guardian article about the Franco-German pact has gone unnoticed but in it is a clear signal by both governments that economic migrants will be returned home. That in itself is recognition that not all these migrants are refugees. Also, an amazing number of them are fit young men, as I've said before. Yet nobody seems to think that is a tad suspicious. If they are fit, young Syrian men then they should be back home fighting for their country. Again, not wanting your head cut off and wanting a higher income are not mutually exclusive. I am surprised that you consider this irrational. If there were a hundreds of thousands of people wanting to come over largely for a better income (as we saw from Poland about ten years ago), strict management would be the main urgency. I would suggest that as the trip from Syria to Europe is not typically one of jumping in a taxi to the local airport, I would imagine the people who make it are disproportionately fit young men. As for your suggestion that they should stay in Syria and fight for either Assad or ISIS.....really FFS. "You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted September 3, 2015 Author Share Posted September 3, 2015 CKN, whilst Turkey is a NATO ally, their actions in this area are murky at best. The first airstrikes they undertook were against the Kurds, the one group who have resisted ISIS. The drowned kid was a Kurd. This is probably why his family didn't see Turkey as a safe place. With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 CKN, whilst Turkey is a NATO ally, their actions in this area are murky at best. The first airstrikes they undertook were against the Kurds, the one group who have resisted ISIS. The drowned kid was a Kurd. This is probably why his family didn't see Turkey as a safe place. Oh, absolutely. Turkey is in a whole world of internal turmoil. Some want to become very European and secular, some want to become very islamic and religiously intolerant, others just want to be left alone. Unfortunately, the last category has no voice. It wouldn't take too much pressure for it to blow. Your point about the dead child being a Kurd is very appropriate and quite neatly answers why they didn't stay there. "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methven Hornet Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 More Conservatives coming out to say we should do more. Suggestions that Cameron will change tack. Oh, make no mistake about it, Cameron can be pressured into doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Oh, make no mistake about it, Cameron can be pressured into doing the right thing. Indeed. I think it is the presence of UKIP that had him pressured to be strict with entry. "You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Which is what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted September 3, 2015 Share Posted September 3, 2015 Oh, make no mistake about it, Cameron can be pressured into doing the right thing. What is the 'right thing'? I would go with what is proposed in the latest news, ie a greater number of Syrians but offered asylum directly from the UN refugee camps as that ensures the people receiving asylum are genuine asylum seekers and not economic migrants. I hope that is the line Cameron takes rather than opening the doors to those who have come through Europe because that will just encourage the traffickers and the economic migrants. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/03/cameron-bows-to-pressure-to-allow-more-syrian-refugees-into-britain I would also be very careful as to the numbers. I notice that local councils have said any refugees must be 'fully funded' by central government. Now there's a surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted September 4, 2015 Share Posted September 4, 2015 I had promised myself........ Your views? Meant to reply earlier but you've used up the whole world's supply of words for Thursday in your Cameron witch-hunt Views: you could have just said. "We are ALL guilty" or "Whatever Cameron does I shall automatically disagree with, even if he does what I say he should do" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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