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John Drake

Jeremy Corbyn & the Labour Party

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1 hour ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

 

Some of us have been saying this for the last 3 years.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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On 17/06/2019 at 16:52, Trevorkfevfan said:

Ahhhh   like tuition fees, refinement of the GP fund holding and introduction of the oh so noble Primary Care Trusts. I apologise for missing such wonderful socialist achievments!

Blair’s socialist achievements far outstrip Corbyn’s. 

 

 


English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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On 17/06/2019 at 00:57, Trevorkfevfan said:

So many folk that bemoan the loss of Blairs New Labour seem to forget what Thatcher said when asked what she regarded as her greatest achievement!  Tony Blair and New Labour.

Cameron was Blair's biggest fan, that tells me all I need to know.

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2 hours ago, Griff9of13 said:

Some of us have been saying this for the last 3 years.

He only asked the question of current Labour supporters.

Asking potential or traditional voters could give very different results. 

If it is accurate it could mean that the working class voters have deserted Labour at the moment and that it is having to rely on the middle class vote to compete.

Including a potential number of Labour Voters, temporarily lapsed or who voted elsewhere would show a different result entirely. 

It's similar to the Lib Dems at the moment who have attracted the remain vote. The class and demographics will differ during this phenomenon. 

I understand what you say but I just think the result of the poll is reactive as opposed to a true reflection.

Edited by Niels

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15 minutes ago, Niels said:

He only asked the question of current Labour supporters.

Asking potential or traditional voters could give very different results. 

If it is accurate it could mean that the working class voters have deserted Labour at the moment and that it is having to rely on the middle class vote to compete.

Including a potential number of Labour Voters, temporarily lapsed or who voted elsewhere would show a different result entirely. 

It's similar to the Lib Dems at the moment who have attracted the remain vote. The class and demographics will differ during this phenomenon. 

I understand what you say but I just think the result of the poll is reactive as opposed to a true reflection.

 

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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20 minutes ago, Niels said:

He only asked the question of current Labour supporters.

Asking potential or traditional voters could give very different results. 

If it is accurate it could mean that the working class voters have deserted Labour at the moment and that it is having to rely on the middle class vote to compete.

Including a potential number of Labour Voters, temporarily lapsed or who voted elsewhere would show a different result entirely. 

It's similar to the Lib Dems at the moment who have attracted the remain vote. The class and demographics will differ during this phenomenon. 

I understand what you say but I just think the result of the poll is reactive as opposed to a true reflection.

Trying to associate one specific class with one particular party has been a nonsense for decades. How do you think Thatcher came into and held onto power without the support of huge numbers of working class voters. The same, but in reverse was true of Blair; New Labour's huge majorities depended heavily on their middle class vote to push them over the line. It's these people, the ones not wedded to a party based upon what class they consider themselves to be, that decide what party gets into government.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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28 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

 

Its interesting that someone made the same response as me. 

Its noticeable that he doesn't back up the latter claims with any facts or figures though. 

Also his further comments show that he is not impartial about this. He desperately wants his findings to be true, which then questions whether he displayed any influence, conscious or subconcious on the participants and researches. 

I was interested in the figures and have an open mind, but experience has taught me to examine and scrutinise carefully when sociological findings reflect very much the views of the researcher. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

Trying to associate one specific class with one particular party has been a nonsense for decades. How do you think Thatcher came into and held onto power without the support of huge numbers of working class voters. The same, but in reverse was true of Blair; New Labour's huge majorities depended heavily on their middle class vote to push them over the line. It's these people, the ones not wedded to a party based upon what class they consider themselves to be, that decide what party gets into government.

I think you have made some good points. When I studied in the early 90s of course class was the most important factor. But I haven't studied it recently. 

I came across this article which you may find interesting. It's from a left of centre magazine. 

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/does-class-still-drive-british-politics

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7 hours ago, Griff9of13 said:

Some of us have been saying this for the last 3 years.

And in Southern seats  this is very true!  But in Northern and marginal seats (Labour must win) this is the opposite!

Islington, Hackney etc Labour poll well. ( the young well meaning twitter crowd)  and even better if they move to remain.  But they will lose seats  in places where every generation has voted labour ( because that is what they do).  If labour lose the vote they have relied on for 80 years they are finished!

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10 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Cameron was Blair's biggest fan, that tells me all I need to know.

You can be a fan of how people achieve things without liking what it is they achieve.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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10 hours ago, Niels said:

I was interested in the figures and have an open mind

Yes, this would be why you are absolutely convinced and keep putting forward the argument, in defiance of all the evidence, that leave is a poor person's vote and remain a rich person's one.

Without any figures.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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5 hours ago, kiyan said:

And in Southern seats  this is very true!  But in Northern and marginal seats (Labour must win) this is the opposite!

Islington, Hackney etc Labour poll well. ( the young well meaning twitter crowd)  and even better if they move to remain.  But they will lose seats  in places where every generation has voted labour ( because that is what they do).  If labour lose the vote they have relied on for 80 years they are finished!

I think its more nuanced than that.

If the Labour leadership was more effective I think they could carry sufficient remain or leave voters in the debate to get over the line whatever side the party took on Brexit.

As a northern voter, if I felt Labour could deliver a form of Brexit that worked and had a leadership capable of understanding and fixing many of the wrongs the country currently faces then I'd consider voting for them, as it stands, wouldn't touch them with a barge pole no matter how they pitched there Brexit policy in the next election.

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15 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Yes, this would be why you are absolutely convinced and keep putting forward the argument, in defiance of all the evidence, that leave is a poor person's vote and remain a rich person's one.

Without any figures.

Note the last line ☺

You were absent when I produced figures about Caroline Flint's constituency then?

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/01/31/many-working-class-people-believe-in-brexit-who-can-blame-them/

Edited by Niels

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3 minutes ago, Niels said:

I did, its meaningless waffle.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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35 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Yes, this would be why you are absolutely convinced and keep putting forward the argument, in defiance of all the evidence, that leave is a poor person's vote and remain a rich person's one.

Without any figures.

Recent article from The Guardian

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/01/poorer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers

Note the last line in Paragraph 8 -  The poorer you are the more likely you are to have voted for it (Brexit). 

 

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35 minutes ago, Niels said:

Recent article from The Guardian

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/01/poorer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers

Note the last line in Paragraph 8 -  The poorer you are the more likely you are to have voted for it (Brexit). 

 

Interesting.

Not enough to change the maths that Brexit was the vote of the moneyed Tories of the Home Counties, but interesting.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 hour ago, Niels said:

Recent article from The Guardian

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/01/poorer-brexiters-worse-off-working-class-leavers

Note the last line in Paragraph 8 -  The poorer you are the more likely you are to have voted for it (Brexit). 

 

 

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Interesting.

Not enough to change the maths that Brexit was the vote of the moneyed Tories of the Home Counties, but interesting.

And still nothing in it to collate voting Labour with voting brexit; just a massive assumption that poor = Labour voter. All the evidence I've seen suggests that the most worse off don't usually vote at all.

Edited by Griff9of13
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"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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2 hours ago, Griff9of13 said:

 

And still nothing in it to collate voting Labour with voting brexit; just a massive assumption that poor = Labour voter. All the evidence I've seen suggests that the most worse off don't usually vote at all.

I am interested in voting patterns so I will try to have a look to see if there are any more figures or if I notice any articles I will post them. 

I think the assumption is because despite any figures to the contrary, Labour is always elected in the poor and inner city areas (discounting any Brexit party anomaly). 

I find it difficult to escape this. Maybe if Inner city leaves elects other than a Labour MP I would reconsider. 

I do respect your opinions though, and Jon's also and I wanted to explain my reasoning so you can at least see where I and possibly others are coming from. 

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20 minutes ago, Niels said:

I am interested in voting patterns so I will try to have a look to see if there are any more figures or if I notice any articles I will post them. 

I think the assumption is because despite any figures to the contrary, Labour is always elected in the poor and inner city areas (discounting any Brexit party anomaly). 

I find it difficult to escape this. Maybe if Inner city leaves elects other than a Labour MP I would reconsider. 

I do respect your opinions though, and Jon's also and I wanted to explain my reasoning so you can at least see where I and possibly others are coming from. 

i have no idea of the veracity of their sources but here is an article saying the lower your income the less likely you are to vote - not due to apathy but disgust that no one seems to want to represent them (uses Leeds as example city)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/16/poverty-election-vote-apathy

And an international example (discusses various countries)

https://voxeu.org/article/low-voter-turnout-increasing-household-income-may-help

Edited by SSoutherner
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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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A long thread by someone who does the numbers for a living -

 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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8 minutes ago, Bedford Roughyed said:

 

tenor.gif

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"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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5 hours ago, SSoutherner said:

i have no idea of the veracity of their sources but here is an article saying the lower your income the less likely you are to vote - not due to apathy but disgust that no one seems to want to represent them (uses Leeds as example city)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/16/poverty-election-vote-apathy

And an international example (discusses various countries)

https://voxeu.org/article/low-voter-turnout-increasing-household-income-may-help

Thanks for this, especially with the Leeds content. It's nice of you to post. I will have a read of the articles. 

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