Saintslass Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Yes you can, it's a recognised form of discrimination and the "Islam is a religion not a race so I'm not a racist" claim is made all over social media everyday by, guess who? Yeah racists It may well be a recognised form of discrimination but that doesn't make it racism. Racism is discrimination towards those of another race (which also incorporates nationality in British law). Racism has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. People of all races can adhere to any religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 It may well be a recognised form of discrimination but that doesn't make it racism. Racism is discrimination towards those of another race (which also incorporates nationality in British law). Racism has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. People of all races can adhere to any religion. Read what CKN posted above, it's particularly relevant when most of the adherents of a particular religion tend to be from a middle eastern or south East Asian background "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 [quote name="Saintslass" post="3252484" timestamp="1451480960 Prejudice towards Muslims exists and that isn't really surprising given how Muslims have featured in recent years in bombings, beheadings, stabbings and heaven knows what else. However, while racism is prejudice, not all prejudice is racism and prejudice against Muslims isn't racism because Muslim isn't a race. Nothing to do with pedantics; just fact. So prejudice against Muslims is ok because of how "they've featured in recent years? As someone who has experienced racism in real life and on this board may I say you've reached a new low? "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 So prejudice against Muslims is ok because of how "they've featured in recent years? As someone who has experienced racism in real life and on this board may I say you've reached a new low? Typical response on here of someone twisting others words. She never said it was ok, she said it wasn't surprising, completely different things. Get off your high horse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 So prejudice against Muslims is ok because of how "they've featured in recent years? As someone who has experienced racism in real life and on this board may I say you've reached a new low? Where did I say it was 'ok'? Yes, that's right: nowhere. And how do you know I haven't experienced racism in real life? You need to check your own assumptions before accusing others of expressing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Read what CKN posted above, it's particularly relevant when most of the adherents of a particular religion tend to be from a middle eastern or south East Asian background It isn't relevant at all. Racism is prejudice against skin colour or nationality (in the UK). It has nothing whatsoever to do with faith. Most faiths have adherents of all skin colours and nationalities, including Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Typical response on here of someone twisting others words. She never said it was ok, she said it wasn't surprising, completely different things. Get off your high horse I don't own a horse never mind a high one. You may say I misquoted, I say I got to the nub of what she was meaning, I stand by what I've said. "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Where did I say it was 'ok'? Yes, that's right: nowhere. And how do you know I haven't experienced racism in real life? You need to check your own assumptions before accusing others of expressing them. So your personal experience of facing racism is what exactly? Mine is well documented on here "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I don't own a horse never mind a high one. You may say I misquoted, I say I got to the nub of what she was meaning, I stand by what I've said. Well you then are a narrow minded bigot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 It isn't relevant at all. Racism is prejudice against skin colour or nationality (in the UK). It has nothing whatsoever to do with faith. Most faiths have adherents of all skin colours and nationalities, including Islam. Technically, isn't prejudice against nationality xenophobia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Well you then are a narrow minded bigot Nice debating technique, should take you far "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintslass Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Technically, isn't prejudice against nationality xenophobia? It is but for the purposes of British law prejudice against nationalities is linked with racism. See here (the 2010 Equality Act which drew all the anti-discrimination acts together): https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights/types-of-discrimination You will note that racism and faith-based prejudice are clearly separated, as they should be IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Nice debating technique, should take you far It's a bit like telling people they have reached a new low. It would be much preferred if we were all a little more polite to each other, cut out the personal comments and respected each other's integrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The state pension is going up each year considerably more than the cost of living Since the Tories came in and introduced the triple lock on the pensions then they go up greater than the cost of living every year Pensioners are now the best off demographic group in the country. Is there a source for this? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/14/pensioners-better-off-young-people-suffering http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11231796/If-youre-under-30-bad-luck.-Youre-screwed.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11944141/Pensioners-are-9-a-week-better-off-than-those-in-work.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3282053/Pensioners-earning-work-Two-five-people-retiring-today-better-off.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2966649/Rise-rich-pensioner-65s-better-population-young-people-incomes-tumble.html http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8026 http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/539237/Pensioners-better-off-as-the-young-struggle Why should my Dad who is a higher tax rate payer, receiving a free bus pass and winter fuel allowance each year If you multiply it by all the higher tax rate payers, it's still significant and is not required, he does not need it. When we're paying £80 billion a year more than we're earning as a country, we can ill afford these giveaways. Does he use his bus pass? Yes because he's tight, but does he need it? No, he's got 2 cars debt, which is now coming upto 90% of GDP. I was talking about national debt of the country! Which people conveniently forget about, particularly those on the left wing, no doubt believing it will somehow vanish away# The state pension is going up each year considerably more than the cost of living Since the Tories came in and introduced the triple lock on the pensions then they go up greater than the cost of living every year I've just shown you in a chart from a reputable organisation that this statement is incorrect. Pensioner inflation in 2011 was 7 %. My pension didn't rise by anywhere near 7% As you can see from the same chart In general, pension inflation is higher than general inflation and after a very short term dip is now on the rise and set to overtake the CPI yet again. In addition, it may be that your father has some savings and investments. It may be that you have a mortgage. If you do not, then others do and their abysmally low interest rate is being subsided by the appalling rate of return on your father's savings. However, I would support making the Winter Fuel Payment taxable in return for market rate mortgage interest rates. Stop the bus pass, stop winter fuel allowance and it will not make one jot of difference to the nation's finances. In additiojn, I'm sorry to say that none of your likes prove the statement that "Pensioners are now the best off demographic group in the country." It's only a guess, but nevertheless I'd say the best off demographic group in the country is "those in work" HMRC data show average UK income falls, from £19,000 in work to state and private pension worth just £11,600 ( 2013 figure) http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/jun/05/retirement-income-less-working-wage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Pensioners to be charged £26 'falling fee' to be helped back to their feet by local council Non story, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The state pension is going up each year considerably more than the cost of living Since the Tories came in and introduced the triple lock on the pensions then they go up greater than the cost of living every year I've just shown you in a chart from a reputable organisation that this statement is incorrect. Pensioner inflation in 2011 was 7 %. My pension didn't rise by anywhere near 7% As you can see from the same chart In general, pension inflation is higher than general inflation and after a very short term dip is now on the rise and set to overtake the CPI yet again. In addition, it may be that your father has some savings and investments. It may be that you have a mortgage. If you do not, then others do and their abysmally low interest rate is being subsided by the appalling rate of return on your father's savings. However, I would support making the Winter Fuel Payment taxable in return for market rate mortgage interest rates. Stop the bus pass, stop winter fuel allowance and it will not make one jot of difference to the nation's finances. In additiojn, I'm sorry to say that none of your likes prove the statement that "Pensioners are now the best off demographic group in the country." It's only a guess, but nevertheless I'd say the best off demographic group in the country is "those in work" HMRC data show average UK income falls, from £19,000 in work to state and private pension worth just £11,600 ( 2013 figure) http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/jun/05/retirement-income-less-working-wage Pensioner RPI lol, please advise what that's based on, I'd love to know? There's no such thing. RPI in general has long since been discredited for its inconsistencies. Savings lol? I assume those are the things that pensioners have, that those of working age don't? That really just supports my argument. I agree that stopping the fuel allowance and bus pass won't make much difference to the country's finances but it will help and we can't keep giving freebies when we're in so much debt. I think you clearly didn't read through the links properly or perhaps didn't comprehend them but they all support the statement that pensioners are the best off demographic group in the UK. Well done, you managed to find one link to support your argument, which clearly doesn't take account of the fact that those of working age have far higher costs to factor in - taxable income, mortgage, kids, childcare costs, student loans so our disposable income is actually far less overall Perhaps you're a bit bitter because you're one of the less well off pensioners without a gold plated public sector or final salary pension? Still your savings should be able to supplement you. In all likelihood there will be no pension when I get older, or retirement age will have reached 80 but no you're quite right I'm far better off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckn Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 A good commentary on Letwin by the Telegraph. If it's good enough to criticise Corbyn over the 1980s then it's good enough to criticise Letwin. Pick a side... Almost as if the Telegraph has read my posts "When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 A good commentary on Letwin by the Telegraph. If it's good enough to criticise Corbyn over the 1980s then it's good enough to criticise Letwin. Pick a side... Almost as if the Telegraph has read my posts The thing about Corbyn, which is actually quite admirable about him in some ways, is that he hasn't changed his views over that time, or at least it doesn't appear so. He hasn't attempted to retract his views on the IRA or claim that his friendship with the perpetrators of terrorism was because of a misunderstanding of what they were really up to. On the other hand, Letwin made a ridiculous assertion 30 years ago and clearly feels embarrassed by it and has apologised for it. He's actually rather fortunate that it took 30 years to come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The thing about Corbyn, which is actually quite admirable about him in some ways, is that he hasn't changed his views over that time, or at least it doesn't appear so. He hasn't attempted to retract his views on the IRA or claim that his friendship with the perpetrators of terrorism was because of a misunderstanding of what they were really up to. On the other hand, Letwin made a ridiculous assertion 30 years ago and clearly feels embarrassed by it and has apologised for it. He's actually rather fortunate that it took 30 years to come out. But Letwin was advising a Prime Minister, that's the difference. “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Completely missing the point that Corporation tax is a counter-productive tax and by reducing the rate you attract more businesses into the UK, and improving the general business climate, which has helped create hundreds of thousands of jobs which in turn these people pay tax, compensating for any cut. This then creates a multiplier effect in the economy which leads to greater economic growth and more tax paid. They've also countered the corporation tax cut by implementing costs for hidden businesses by introducing the National Living Wage, the compulsory pension and the apprenticeship levy. Nothing like a bit of Tory bashing though hey? Their biggest failing is that they haven't cut spending enough, which is why we still have a large deficit. At least they're doing a better job than Gordon 'Giveaway' Brown. But "giveaway Gordon" was attempting to redress the huge disparity that has grown up in this country between the "haves" and "have nots" since Thatcher took power in 1979. Taxes generally on the better off have decreased considerably since those days, on the pretext that they would be less likely to evade them, avoid them, or move abroad. It was and remains of course a fallacy, the less they pay the less they want to pay. On the other hand "grab it back Gideon" is attempting to make the least well off pay off a deficit they didn't cause. Gordon's giveaways didn't cause the deficit, the recession caused the deficit and the recession was caused by unregulated capitalism. “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleD Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 But "giveaway Gordon" was attempting to redress the huge disparity that has grown up in this country between the "haves" and "have nots" since Thatcher took power in 1979. Taxes generally on the better off have decreased considerably since those days, on the pretext that they would be less likely to evade them, avoid them, or move abroad. It was and remains of course a fallacy, the less they pay the less they want to pay. On the other hand "grab it back Gideon" is attempting to make the least well off pay off a deficit they didn't cause. Gordon's giveaways didn't cause the deficit, the recession caused the deficit and the recession was caused by unregulated capitalism. Utter tosh. The recession exacerbated the deficit but there was no prudence in saving in the good times, instead he sold off the gold reserves at one of the lowest price levels to feed his spending frenzy. And what has it created? Benefit junkies and an unsustainable welfare state. Completely incompetent and now we're dealing with the consequences, although I'm not convinced we're dealing with them particularly successfully, given the deficit is still £70 billion each year and spending is still rising. How are the least well off paying for the deficit? The Tories have turned around an economy which has created hundreds of thousands of jobs, introduced the National Living Wage and compulsory pension enrolment. The problem is with today's society is that people expect everything for nothing, too many people are happy sucking off the state ###### and not contributing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Room Lizard Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 A pedant's excuse. It's a generally accepted definition that racism can and does include religion in most contexts, especially when by far the largest proportion of that other religion are different skin colours and ethnic backgrounds. Court cases have decided that racism can include religious discrimination. There have been cases decided using racism laws where sectarianism within the same religion is accepted as racist discrimination when there are clear links to ethnic or cultural backgrounds being used as a stereotype. I dont think religion is a race, as a religion can and does include people of various skin colour and backgrounds and nationalities. I know white, Asian and black Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Born agains etc Islam, like other religions, is something that has warped many people, who then think they can control other people because of it. Islam, like all religions, has caused bloodshed and the belief people can do things in the name of it.I hate the Muslim Faith (Religion)-but not the people who are in it. I feel sorry for them that they feel the need to kill or commit acts in the name of religion to justify what they do. Does that make me racist? For me Religion, no matter what it is, is a sad joke that causes more problems than it solves. Its just a shame so many people of various faiths seem to feel they need a Religion/Faith that often hurts them far more than it does them any good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Pensioner RPI lol, please advise what that's based on, I'd love to know? There's no such thing. RPI in general has long since been discredited for its inconsistencies. Savings lol? I assume those are the things that pensioners have, that those of working age don't? That really just supports my argument. I agree that stopping the fuel allowance and bus pass won't make much difference to the country's finances but it will help and we can't keep giving freebies when we're in so much debt. I think you clearly didn't read through the links properly or perhaps didn't comprehend them but they all support the statement that pensioners are the best off demographic group in the UK. Well done, you managed to find one link to support your argument, which clearly doesn't take account of the fact that those of working age have far higher costs to factor in - taxable income, mortgage, kids, childcare costs, student loans so our disposable income is actually far less overall Perhaps you're a bit bitter because you're one of the less well off pensioners without a gold plated public sector or final salary pension? Still your savings should be able to supplement you. In all likelihood there will be no pension when I get older, or retirement age will have reached 80 but no you're quite right I'm far better off No one is forced to to take out a mortgage, no one is forced to have kids. Their spend on those is entirely discretionary lifestyle choice paid for out of thier disposable income. If someone chooses to live a lifestyle that precludes saving or precludes contributing to a pension, that is their choice. All the links you posted referred not to absolute level but to % changes. The fact still remains that working people have a higher income than pensioners. on average. Here is information about inflation rates for pensioners. http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/14638/inflation/inflation-rates-for-pensioners/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 A good commentary on Letwin by the Telegraph. If it's good enough to criticise Corbyn over the 1980s then it's good enough to criticise Letwin. Pick a side... Almost as if the Telegraph has read my posts I wouldn't venture below the line. With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedford Roughyed Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 On the other hand, Letwin made a ridiculous assertion 30 years ago and clearly feels embarrassed by it and has apologised for it. Has he said that he was wrong and has changed his world view? Or has he just apologised if someone was offended? With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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