Padge Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Okay! I'm confused. Nothing new there, I know. That newspaper clipping refers to Baskiville, with an "i". There is a thread about the "Baskerville" Shield (or Cup. It's late and I'm "tired and emotional") on here. Is this the same bloke? How did he spell his name? Or is it two different blokes? There has always been confusion over how it is spelt, I think someone posted what was on his gravestone a while back but that doesn't mean much if he couldn't make his mind up. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun mc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Okay! I'm confused. Nothing new there, I know. That newspaper clipping refers to Baskiville, with an "i". There is a thread about the "Baskerville" Shield (or Cup. It's late and I'm "tired and emotional") on here. Is this the same bloke? How did he spell his name? Or is it two different blokes? According to RL World - his surname was Baskiville, but he preferred to use Baskerville. Not sure at what point he decided that or for what reason other than personal preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyXIII Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Thanks Padge and Shaun for the quick response. I'm not much wiser, but much comforted to know I'm not going gaga! Rethymno Rugby League Appreciation Society Founder (and, so far, only) member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futtocks Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 According to RL World - his surname was Baskiville, but he preferred to use Baskerville. Not sure at what point he decided that or for what reason other than personal preference. He was certainly hounded by the New Zealand press... sorry. Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. Ralph Waldo Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futtocks Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Oh, found the full article!. And, as you read on, it isn't entirely anti-RL, but a rambling screed that also has a bit of a swing at the NZRFU as well. In fact, it is a bit of a mess, and may possibly have been typed after a long lunch. Edited October 27, 2015 by Futtocks Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. Ralph Waldo Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 Oh, found the full article!. And, as you read on, it isn't entirely anti-RL, but a rambling screed that also has a bit of a swing at the NZRFU as well. In fact, it is a bit of a mess, and may possibly have been typed after a long lunch. The document it refers to in the article was an attempt to legally shackle top players by the NZRFU by getting them swearing on oath in front of a magistrate that they had not been offered or would not partake in discussions about playing for Baskivilles organised tour to the UK. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun mc Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) The relevant paragraph from the RL World article reads....... Born in the tiny town of Waiorongomai in the Wairarapa region of NZ in 1883 (as Albert Henry Baskiville, later preferring the alternate spelling of his surname) Baskerville was an accomplished union player in Wellington. Therefore the Baskerville Shield is named after his preferred name. And for Tony XIII's questions.....its the same person Edited October 27, 2015 by shaun mc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Stein Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I thought this was a fascinating account of that great stronghold of NZ rugby league: the West Coast (although I thought it had within it the West Coast team of the century in it when I first read it - perhaps my mind is playing tricks on me) http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/70918696/west-coast-rugby-league-celebrates-100-years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futtocks Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) I thought this was a fascinating account of that great stronghold of NZ rugby league: the West Coast (although I thought it had within it the West Coast team of the century in it when I first read it - perhaps my mind is playing tricks on me) http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/70918696/west-coast-rugby-league-celebrates-100-years That's a good read. Times may be tough these days, but they used to be a team to be feared by anyone in the world. Edited October 27, 2015 by Futtocks Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. Ralph Waldo Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teessidewire Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Rugby Rebellion by Sean Fagan is an excellent book for anyone interested in the early years of RL in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 Don't know how many of you are aware of this site NATIONAL ARCHIVE OF RUGBY LEAGUE VIDEO INTERVIEWS Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomintroll Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I think this has been posted before. RL 7s at Odsal in 1939 - in colour. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_elKAesrTSU Minä rakastan rugbyliigaa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Fox Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 There are individual online archives of all post-1895 players for various clubs. I'll post the links when I'm at home (out and about at present) but off the top of my head there are lists for Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Oldham and Widnes. I'm sure Yorkshire club historians must have done something similar so perhaps our Tyke contributors could chip in with any links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Fox Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Incidentally next week is (sort of) the 140th anniversary of the Widnes club. At least 5th November 1875 is the earliest record there is, an announcement having been made at the Farnworth & Appleton Cricket Club Annual Dinner on that date that they were forming a football section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marklaspalmas Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Rugby Rebellion by Sean Fagan is an excellent book for anyone interested in the early years of RL in Australia. Cracking read that. https://www.fevarchive.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marklaspalmas Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 This seems as good a place as any to ask. I was reading a book (about Sharlston as it happens) and it had some old rugby results in from the 1880s. The score was made up of x goals, x tries and x minor points. I assume to goal to be converted tries or penalty goals. Or drop goals too? Tries would be unconverted tries. What were minor points? https://www.fevarchive.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnaby Reddin Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Incidentally next week is (sort of) the 140th anniversary of the Widnes club. At least 5th November 1875 is the earliest record there is, an announcement having been made at the Farnworth & Appleton Cricket Club Annual Dinner on that date that they were forming a football section. I was bought the Rugby League Miscellany by David Lawrenson when it was first published in 2007 and I have to say, some of the stories in that book are just brilliant. I never tire of re-reading it......but I was disappointed when I just picked it up to check on the Widnes club founding date that everything starts in 1895/96....it's a shame to cut out the early years of some of these old clubs. IMHO that is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluded pom? Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 This seems as good a place as any to ask. I was reading a book (about Sharlston as it happens) and it had some old rugby results in from the 1880s. The score was made up of x goals, x tries and x minor points. I assume to goal to be converted tries or penalty goals. Or drop goals too? Tries would be unconverted tries. What were minor points? I think it was miner points Mark. Teams would gain extra points for the number of miners they could squeeze into their side. It's a pity Fev weren't around at the time. They would have won more titles than Wigan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marklaspalmas Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Scoring through the ages In early rugby as played at rugby school, the only scores came from goals and there was no points value associated with scoring. The 1845 rules stated that in order to take a punt at goal (this had to be a 'place kick' not a' drop kick') a "TRY at goal" had to be earned by touching the ball down between the posts. The ball was then "punted" over the bar and between the posts without touching the dress or person of any player and in the face of onrushing defenders. The 1862 rules provide a detailed description of the complexities regarding touching down and scoring the goal.1871The first RFU laws state that 'A match shall be decided by a majority of goals only'.March 1875 a proposal for a points scoring system was rejected, as was a proposal that three tries should equal one goal.November 1875 the law was modified to 'A match shall be decided by a majority of goals, but if the number of goals is equal or no goals be kicked, by a majority of tries'.1876Cheltenham College adopted RFU rules but still continued to use their own points based scoring system (they referred to points as rouges).1877'When a goal is kicked from a try, only the goal is scored'. 1881 & 1882Proposals were made for the RFU to introduce a points based scoring system: 1881 (rejected):-"A match shall be decided by majority of points, which are calculated as follows - a touchdown, a touch in goal and a dead-ball all equal in value and each count one point; a try counts 4 points, and a goal kicked from a try 12 points or equal to three tries, and a goal dropped or kicked from the field of play 8 points or two tries. When a goal is kicked from a try the goal only is scored."1882 (rejected):-"A match shall be decided by points as under: - A goal direct from a place kick from a try shall count 8 pts; A goal dropped from the field of play, 6 pts; A goal from a flying kick 4 points; a try 4 points; a touchdown, a dead ball, or a touch in goal, 1 point each. The team obtaining a majority of four more points to be declared the winner. Any less majority than 4 points to count as a drawn game." Prior to 1886 various clubs assigned their own points system. The practice of Touching down the ball behind your own goal line was awarded a Point, sometimes referred to as the "Minor Point" or "Rouge". This should not be confused with the Cheltenham scoring system which referred to points in general as rouges. Many football annuals of this vintage will show scores consisting of Goals, Tries and Minor points (rouges). Although there was no generally accepted scoring system which contained the minor point (rouge) some unions did adopt it. But in 1886 a pattern favoured at Cheltenham School was adopted by the RFU, whereby points were scored for a try, a conversion goal and a dropped goal. 1886 (accepted):-"A match shall be decided by a majority of points, a goal shall equal three points, and a try one point. If the number of points be equal, or no goal kicked or try obtained, the match shall be drawn. Where a goal is kicked from a try the goal only is scored." Later penalty kicks were introduced, allowing teams disadvantaged by illegal play to kick for goal and score points if successful. October 1888"Fair catch" (mark) introduced. Laws amended to introduce 2nd type of goal (of lesser value). 'A match shall be decided by a majority of points. A goal shall equal 3 points, with the exception of a goal kicked from a kick awarded by way of penalty, which shall equal 2 points, and a try 1 point. If the number of points is equal or no goals be kicked or try obtained, the match shall be drawn. When a goal is kicked from a try, the goal only is scored. September 1891The IRFB responsible for: 'A match shall be decided by a majority of points. A try shall equal 2 points, a penalty goal 3 points, a goal from a try (the try not also to count) 5 points. Any other goal shall equal 4 points. If the number of points is equal or no goal is kicked or try obtained, the match shall be drawn.' March 1893RFU & WRU raise try from two to three points. The value of the conversion is also changed from three to two points, meaning that the value of a converted try remains five points. IRFB adopt this scheme the following year. To answer my own question after a spell on google and a try to a rugby onion website (hopefully no virus onto my strictly RL PC) it appears to be a point for tackling your opponents in-goal. Edited October 28, 2015 by marklaspalmas https://www.fevarchive.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padge Posted October 28, 2015 Author Share Posted October 28, 2015 This seems as good a place as any to ask. I was reading a book (about Sharlston as it happens) and it had some old rugby results in from the 1880s. The score was made up of x goals, x tries and x minor points. I assume to goal to be converted tries or penalty goals. Or drop goals too? Tries would be unconverted tries. What were minor points? A minor point was awarded for grounding the ball in your own goal, it was worth one point. Bizarre, but clubs would have their own point scoring systems in the early 1880s until all clubs agreed a unified system in 1886. Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007 Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king" This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojan Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 http://www.britishpathe.com/video/army-rugby-final-2 the player who scored the first try is Billy Boston “Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.” Clement Attlee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longboard Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 An article from The Yorkshireman from 1895 which has some pithy comments about Northern Union and the Rugby Union. http://www.huddersfieldrlheritage.co.uk/Documents/Press%20Cuttings/1895-09-21.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Fox Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I was bought the Rugby League Miscellany by David Lawrenson when it was first published in 2007 and I have to say, some of the stories in that book are just brilliant. I never tire of re-reading it......but I was disappointed when I just picked it up to check on the Widnes club founding date that everything starts in 1895/96....it's a shame to cut out the early years of some of these old clubs. IMHO that is Don't you believe me? Actually it probably would have said 1873 if it hadn't used the NU cut-off because that was the received wisdom at the time (WIdnes actually celebrated their centenary two years early in season 1973/74). That 1895 thing really annoys me too - I think Rothmans also used to use that date for clubs' formation didn't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobbygobbler Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 A minor point was awarded for grounding the ball in your own goal, it was worth one point. Bizarre, but clubs would have their own point scoring systems in the early 1880s until all clubs agreed a unified system in 1886. It was called a "Rouge" wasnt it? I recall Steve May on here giving some details on it a few years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Fox Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) It was called a "Rouge" wasnt it? I recall Steve May on here giving some details on it a few years agoThere's some stuff on rouges in Canadian gridiron here...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_(football) And obviously the NFL's 2 point safety is a legacy of the old rugby touchdown. Posters were another minor point - I think from when a kick hit an upright. Edited October 29, 2015 by Steve Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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