Rugby History Thread

[Padge]

12 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Great photos!  Thanks for those.

Richard Carew published a chronical in 1602 The Survey of Cornwall, in this he describes two forms of hurling played in Cornwall at the time.

The two forms are one with goals and one without goals. The game described with goals sounds slightly familiar.

It is a difficult read in its original, I have gone over it and given it a few tweaks to help make it more readable. Here we have players predominantly handling the ball and being wrestled to the ground and shouting hold to yield. We also have attackers and defenders, the defenders are the best hurlers, the ones that are good at wrestling the opposition to the ground. Forward passes are not allowed and there is no mention of kicking.

 

Hurling takes his denomination from throwing of the ball, and is of two sorts, in the East parts of Cornwall, to goals, and in the West, to the contrary. 

For hurling to goals, there are 15. 20. or 30. players more or less, chosen out on each side, who strip them- selves into their slightest apparel, and then join hands in rank one against another.  Out of these ranks they match themselves by pairs, one embracing another, and so pass away: every of which couple, are specially to watch one another during the play.

After this, they pitch two bushes in the ground, some eight or ten foot asunder; and directly against them, ten or twelve score off, other twain in like distance, which they term their goals.  One of these is appointed by lots, to the one side, and the other to his adverse party.  There is assigned for their guard, a couple of their best stopping Hurlers; the residue draw into the midst between both goals, where some indifferent person throw up a ball, the which whosoever can catch, and cary through his adversaries goal, has won the game. But therein consists one of Hercules his labours: for he that is once possessed of the ball, has his contrary mate waiting at inches, and assaying to lay hold upon him.  The other thrust him in the breast, with his closed fist, to keep him off; which they call Butting, and place in well doing the same, no small point of manhood.

If he escape the first, another takes him in hand, and so a third, neither is he left, until having met (as the Frenchman say) Chausseura son pied, he either touch the ground with some part of his body, in wrestling, or cry, Hold; which is the word of yielding. Then must he cast the ball (named Dealing) to some one of his fellows, who catching the same in his hand, makes away with all as before; and if his hap or agility bee so good, as to shake off or outrun his counter-waiters, at the goal, he finds one or two fresh men, ready to receive and keep him off.  It is therefore a very disadvantaged match, or extraordinary accident, that leads to many goals: howbeit, that side carries away the best reputation, which gives most falls in the hurling, keeps the ball longest, and press his contrary nearest to their own goal.  Sometimes one chosen person on each party deals the ball.

The Hurlers are bound to the observation of many laws, as, that they must hurl man to man, and not two set upon one man at once: that the Hurler against the ball, must not but, nor hand-fast under girdle: that he who hath the ball, must but only in the others breast: that he must deal no Fore-ball, viz. he may not throw it to any of his mates, standing nearer the goal, than himself.  Lastly, in dealing the ball, if any of the other part can catch it flying between, or e’re the other have it fast, he thereby wins the same to his side, which straightway of defendant becomes assailant, as the other, of assailant falls to be defendant.  The least breach of these laws, the Hurlers take for a just cause of going together by the ears, but with their fists only; neither does any among them seek revenge for such wrongs or hurts, but at the like play again.  These hurling matches are mostly used at weddings, where commonly the guests undertake to encounter all comers. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Padge

[Gambass]

On 20/03/2018 at 10:13 PM, Futtocks said:

The FFRXIII Twitter feed has been posting from their archives recently. Here's a real beauty! The first ever Rugby League match held in France - a test match between England and Australia. 1933, at the Stade Pershing. If I can make out the caption correctly, that's Vic Hey with the ball.

The image will expand to a pretty decent size when clicked.

Actually, they RT from my twitter acount ^^

They were 8,000 in the stands (Stade Pershing, Paris), and the pitch was frozen.

The picture came from press reports that you cand find plenty here: (from 1933 up to the late 40's)

http://gallica.bnf.fr/

https://www.retronews.fr/ (much more user friendly)

 

There is a load of fantastic stuff to dig out. For exemple: Galia proposing allready in 1934 to hold a World Cup, a "group of italians"  asking to hold a game in Roma, etc.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Gambass

[Futtocks]

A website devoted to the Maher Cup: http://mahercup.com.au/

It looks like a real labour of love - tons of content.

[Padge]

Cross Code Challenge

This is a series of films featuring four Rugby League and Union games:  a fundraising match between Combined Services Rugby League and Rugby Union, 1941, a fundraising match between Yorkshire Services and Northern Command, early 1940s, England v Wales, 1939, and the Challenge Cup Final between Bradford Northern and Wigan, 1944. 

http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/rugby-league-wartime-matches-odsal-stadium-bradford
 

 

[Padge]

This documentary has been mentioned a few times on various threads.

The game that got away

Part 1

Part 2

 

[Padge]

There is a discussion elsewhere about line-outs, this bit probably needs to be in here as well..

 

The first attempt at getting rid of line-outs was as early as 1st October 1895, Halifax and Manningham played a trial game with 13 a-side, no line-outs and a round ball.

Two experimental methods of restart were to be tried the team kicking or carrying the ball into touch would relinquish posession, the opposition would then have an option to kick or throw the ball back into play from where the ball entered touch. The player throwing or punting the ball back into play could send it in any direction and as quickly as he liked without waiting for all the players to be in position.

One half of the game would use the throw in method and the other half the punt method. The reasoning being to reduce the endless succession of line-outs and scrums that invariably followed.

 

At a meeting on the 2nd July 1896 a proposal was brought forward to scrap the line-out and allow a player to throw the ball back into play but would not be allowed to throw it forward. This was defered until the next meeting.

 

At a meeting held on the 20th July 1897 the following was finaly passed regarding line-outs which sealed their fate.

"The ball is in touch when it player carrying it into touch or across the touch-line. shall then belong to that side opposite to the last touching it in the field of play. 

One of the side to whom the ball belongs shall bring it into play by punting it from touch at or behind the spot where it crossed the touch-line. The ball may kicked in any direction, but must not be kicked over the goal-line of the side taking the kick. 

The opposite side may come up to and charge from anywhere on or behind a line drawn through tho spot where the ball crossed the touch-line, and parallel to the goal-line. 

Any infringement of this law the ball shall belong the opposite side. The kicker's side must be behind the ball when tho kick taken." 

 

At the same meeting another important change was made.

An alteration to the mode scoring was agreed. " A try equals three points, and a goal two points, in case goal from a try, the try count in addition to the goal." 

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

On ‎3‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 8:41 PM, Padge said:

Richard Carew published a chronical in 1602 The Survey of Cornwall, in this he describes two forms of hurling played in Cornwall at the time.

The two forms are one with goals and one without goals. The game described with goals sounds slightly familiar.

It is a difficult read in its original, I have gone over it and given it a few tweaks to help make it more readable. Here we have players predominantly handling the ball and being wrestled to the ground and shouting hold to yield. We also have attackers and defenders, the defenders are the best hurlers, the ones that are good at wrestling the opposition to the ground. Forward passes are not allowed and there is no mention of kicking.

 

Hurling takes his denomination from throwing of the ball, and is of two sorts, in the East parts of Cornwall, to goals, and in the West, to the contrary. 

For hurling to goals, there are 15. 20. or 30. players more or less, chosen out on each side, who strip them- selves into their slightest apparel, and then join hands in rank one against another.  Out of these ranks they match themselves by pairs, one embracing another, and so pass away: every of which couple, are specially to watch one another during the play.

After this, they pitch two bushes in the ground, some eight or ten foot asunder; and directly against them, ten or twelve score off, other twain in like distance, which they term their goals.  One of these is appointed by lots, to the one side, and the other to his adverse party.  There is assigned for their guard, a couple of their best stopping Hurlers; the residue draw into the midst between both goals, where some indifferent person throw up a ball, the which whosoever can catch, and cary through his adversaries goal, has won the game. But therein consists one of Hercules his labours: for he that is once possessed of the ball, has his contrary mate waiting at inches, and assaying to lay hold upon him.  The other thrust him in the breast, with his closed fist, to keep him off; which they call Butting, and place in well doing the same, no small point of manhood.

If he escape the first, another takes him in hand, and so a third, neither is he left, until having met (as the Frenchman say) Chausseura son pied, he either touch the ground with some part of his body, in wrestling, or cry, Hold; which is the word of yielding. Then must he cast the ball (named Dealing) to some one of his fellows, who catching the same in his hand, makes away with all as before; and if his hap or agility bee so good, as to shake off or outrun his counter-waiters, at the goal, he finds one or two fresh men, ready to receive and keep him off.  It is therefore a very disadvantaged match, or extraordinary accident, that leads to many goals: howbeit, that side carries away the best reputation, which gives most falls in the hurling, keeps the ball longest, and press his contrary nearest to their own goal.  Sometimes one chosen person on each party deals the ball.

The Hurlers are bound to the observation of many laws, as, that they must hurl man to man, and not two set upon one man at once: that the Hurler against the ball, must not but, nor hand-fast under girdle: that he who hath the ball, must but only in the others breast: that he must deal no Fore-ball, viz. he may not throw it to any of his mates, standing nearer the goal, than himself.  Lastly, in dealing the ball, if any of the other part can catch it flying between, or e’re the other have it fast, he thereby wins the same to his side, which straightway of defendant becomes assailant, as the other, of assailant falls to be defendant.  The least breach of these laws, the Hurlers take for a just cause of going together by the ears, but with their fists only; neither does any among them seek revenge for such wrongs or hurts, but at the like play again.  These hurling matches are mostly used at weddings, where commonly the guests undertake to encounter all comers. 

Belatedly, Padge, many thanks for that fascinating insight into one form of Cornish hurling.  For some reason, I hadn't spotted this contribution of yours before.

I knew I had seen a reference, somewhere in the past, to the no-forward-pass rule in Cornish hurling, presumably made by somebody aware of the text you quote.

[Lowdesert]

Just watching one of those old antiques road trip things and they visited the palatial home of Lord Derby.  On discussion, he mentioned horse racing and specifically all the races that have the name ‘Derby’.  

Lord Derby mentioned that, although the name is used by football clubs and other sports, the name Derby actually came from Rugby League with local teams competing.  Never knew that.

[JonM]

Slightly random question.

In 1899-1900 and 1900-01, some clubs played extra games in the Southwest Lancs and Border Towns Cup - Warrington, Runcorn, Widnes, St. Helens, Leigh, Tyldesley, Wigan etc. In 1901-02, it seems to have changed to a league format with two groups of four and a play-off. I think the competition was a follow-on from a similar one that had been played before the NU split (mentioned in Tony Collins' book.)

The Warrington heritage site here lists them as winners or runners-up right up to 1909-10, which suggests that the competition continued based on normal league games rather than extra fixtures, although possibly only unofficially after 1906/7.

https://www.warringtonrugbyheritage.com/honours

Anybody know anything more about this competition? Which clubs took part, who were the winners?

[Padge]

7 hours ago, JonM said:

Slightly random question.

In 1899-1900 and 1900-01, some clubs played extra games in the Southwest Lancs and Border Towns Cup - Warrington, Runcorn, Widnes, St. Helens, Leigh, Tyldesley, Wigan etc. In 1901-02, it seems to have changed to a league format with two groups of four and a play-off. I think the competition was a follow-on from a similar one that had been played before the NU split (mentioned in Tony Collins' book.)

The Warrington heritage site here lists them as winners or runners-up right up to 1909-10, which suggests that the competition continued based on normal league games rather than extra fixtures, although possibly only unofficially after 1906/7.

https://www.warringtonrugbyheritage.com/honours

Anybody know anything more about this competition? Which clubs took part, who were the winners?

In March 1900 8 Senior Lancashire clubs, namely Runcorn, Widnes, Warrington, St.Helens, Swinton, Leigh, Tyldsley and Wigan, elected to play an end of season knockout competition. The competition was named The South-West Lancashire and Border Towns Cup. It was also refered to in the press as The South-West Lancashire Cup or just Lancashire Cup  It disappears off the radar after its first season when Leigh won it in 1901. This seems to be an attempt to revive the old Lancashire Union Cup competition of the same name that Warrington list in 1885-86.

From 1896-97 to 1901-02 the Norther Union was split on county lines, Lancasire Seniors and Yorkshire Seniors competitions.

From 1902-03 to 1904-05 a two division competition was run.

Following that was a return to one Northern Union League

The Lancashire Cup was first played for in 1905. Its full title was The Lancashire Senior Northern Union Cup.

The dates on the Warrington heritage site refer to the one season that the SW Lancs & Border Town Cup was played for (under NU rules), the others seem to be around the Lancashire League Competitions that were ran as part of the overall Northern Union.

[JonM]

Bit more digging suggests that Saints won it in 1899-1900 - beating Runcorn 6-0 in the final and that it ran as a knockout cup for a couple of seasons and there were extra fixtures for this competition, on top of normal league games. 

In 1901-02, there was a Northern Rugby League with the top 7 clubs from each county and Lancashire & Yorkshire senior competitions below that (the Lancashire comp had 13 teams, including Hull KR). Runcorn, Leigh & Warrington were in the top league, with Saints, Wigan & Widnes in the county league and so extra inter-league fixtures were played to give the final SW Lancs League table, which Warrington won (and Broughton Rangers won the corresponding SE Lancs league.)

[Padge]

3 hours ago, JonM said:

Bit more digging suggests that Saints won it in 1899-1900 - beating Runcorn 6-0 in the final and that it ran as a knockout cup for a couple of seasons and there were extra fixtures for this competition, on top of normal league games. 

In 1901-02, there was a Northern Rugby League with the top 7 clubs from each county and Lancashire & Yorkshire senior competitions below that (the Lancashire comp had 13 teams, including Hull KR). Runcorn, Leigh & Warrington were in the top league, with Saints, Wigan & Widnes in the county league and so extra inter-league fixtures were played to give the final SW Lancs League table, which Warrington won (and Broughton Rangers won the corresponding SE Lancs league.)

Do you have a link for that 1899 - 1900 date, I can't find any record of it that year (doesn't mean it didn't happen just I may looking for the wrong thing).

[AB Knight]

I don't have a link as i read it in a few scrapbooks of news articles before they were given to York a City Knights to archive.

It's modern history compared to some of the great articles on here, but I was amazed to read just before the advent of Super League York were looking at teaming up with Gateshead to gain a place, York even went as far as playing a home match in Gatsehead. I'm not sure if the suggestion was the teams would merge or that York would simply take the best Gateshead players and split home matches between the two places. I of course knew all about the Calder merger suggestions (Cas/Wakefield/Featherstone) but not this. 

Anyone know anymore? 

[Lowdesert]

25 minutes ago, AB Knight said:

I don't have a link as i read it in a few scrapbooks of news articles before they were given to York a City Knights to archive.

It's modern history compared to some of the great articles on here, but I was amazed to read just before the advent of Super League York were looking at teaming up with Gateshead to gain a place, York even went as far as playing a home match in Gatsehead. I'm not sure if the suggestion was the teams would merge or that York would simply take the best Gateshead players and split home matches between the two places. I of course knew all about the Calder merger suggestions (Cas/Wakefield/Featherstone) but not this. 

Anyone know anymore? 

I understood that to be true also.  Certainly a good few of their youngsters came to Hull when they merged with Gateshead.  Russ McQorcadale, the Godfrey twins and another lad who’s name escapes me all played in our academy.

[JonM]

1 hour ago, Padge said:

Do you have a link for that 1899 - 1900 date, I can't find any record of it that year (doesn't mean it didn't happen just I may looking for the wrong thing).

I think it's probably the same as what you posted - a meeting in March 1900 for a post-season competition would make that the 1899-1900 season.

League table from 1901-2 is here:

http://www.saints.org.uk/saints.org.uk/home/viewpage.php?page_id=24&tabledate=1901 2

The Widnes fixtures are shown here

http://rugby.widnes.tv/searchg.php?q=1899-00&scfield=season&Submit=Search (last two games of the season)

http://rugby.widnes.tv/searchg.php?q=1900-01&scfield=season&Submit=Search  (game on Nov 3)

http://rugby.widnes.tv/searchg.php?q=1901-02&scfield=season&Submit=Search   (SWLL games home and away against Warrington, Runcorn & Leigh who were in the division above)

I can see some newspaper items too that I can't link to. I had corresponding Warrington fixtures earlier, but seems not to be working now.

[JonM]

Not that wikipedia is a primary source, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runcorn_RFC  says "1901–02 also saw the introduction of the South West Lancashire League which ran until 1906–07. Only six teams competed (Wigan, Warrington, St Helens, Widnes, Leigh and Runcorn). They met home & away but if they met in the league that result counted towards the South West Lancashire League (indicated with SWLL on the List.)" and gives some results for the Runcorn team in the SWLL in later years.

[Padge]

3 hours ago, JonM said:

Not that wikipedia is a primary source, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runcorn_RFC  says "1901–02 also saw the introduction of the South West Lancashire League which ran until 1906–07. Only six teams competed (Wigan, Warrington, St Helens, Widnes, Leigh and Runcorn). They met home & away but if they met in the league that result counted towards the South West Lancashire League (indicated with SWLL on the List.)" and gives some results for the Runcorn team in the SWLL in later years.

That isn't the South-West Lancashire and Boarders Cup, that is the The South-West Lancashire Seniors League competition  (There was also an South-East Lancashire Seniors League) which is in effect a league within a league. In 1901 the knockout cup competition was abandoned.

All this came about because the top clubs wanted to form an elite competition, which they did, they then expected the remaining clubs would form into a Seconds League. The clubs outside of the 'elite' decided to form a Lancashire Seniors League and a Yorkshire Seniors League instead.

The clubs in Lancashire were concerned about losing the money spinning local derbies that provided much of their income so as well as the Seniors League, they form a  South-West Lancashire Seniors League (Runcorn, Warrington, Widnes, Leigh, Wigan, St.Helens) and similar South-East League (Salford, Swinton, Broughton,  Oldham, Stockport, Rochdale)

 

[JonM]

Thanks - so it looks like there was a cup for 2 seasons and then a league for mostly the same clubs for a few seasons longer - and for most (but not all) of those seasons, there weren't any extra fixtures associated with the competition.

[Padge]

Here is a full(ish) fixture list for Saturday 9th November 1901. The keen eyed may spot that Hull KR are playing in the Lancashire Senior Competition against Altrincham.

 

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

58 minutes ago, Padge said:

Here is a full(ish) fixture list for Saturday 9th November 1901. The keen eyed may spot that Hull KR are playing in the Lancashire Senior Competition against Altrincham.

 

As ever, Padge, the erudition that you bring to this thread is greatly appreciated, certainly by me - many thanks!

Two immediate thoughts.  The first is that there are often moans on here  (and, it must be said with some justification) about the lack of planning any significant way ahead and the constant tinkering with competition structures.  Your information suggests that this is perhaps the continuation of a grand old tradition!

Second, I was intrigued to note, in the published fixture list, the practice of naming the home side second.  This is, of course, the well established practice in North American sports, but perhaps was not new when adopted by them.

 

[Padge]

15 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

1. As ever, Padge, the erudition that you bring to this thread is greatly appreciated, certainly by me - many thanks!

2. Two immediate thoughts.  The first is that there are often moans on here  (and, it must be said with some justification) about the lack of planning any significant way ahead and the constant tinkering with competition structures.  Your information suggests that this is perhaps the continuation of a grand old tradition!

3. Second, I was intrigued to note, in the published fixture list, the practice of naming the home side second.  This is, of course, the well established practice in North American sports, but perhaps was not new when adopted by them.

 

1. Thanks.

2. Indeed the constant tinkering with structures is  a very long 'tradition' within the game, the games custodians have never grasped in over 100 years that the games problems will not be solved by having a different structure as a means of getting more  more people to watch and hand over their cash. In the early years they did grasp that it was the game as a spectacle was important to getting people to attend games, but that seems to have been lost on the current generation who are letting the game on the field get stifled while thy search for the elusive magic structure.

3. Not all newspapers at this time listed games this way. This was a Saturday edition of The Yorkshire Post from 1901.

[JonM]

7 minutes ago, Padge said:

3. Not all newspapers at this time listed games this way. This was a Saturday edition of The Yorkshire Post from 1901.

They always did things backwards in Yorkshire, AIUI.

[thirteenthman]

On 5/30/2018 at 1:45 PM, AB Knight said:

I don't have a link as i read it in a few scrapbooks of news articles before they were given to York a City Knights to archive.

It's modern history compared to some of the great articles on here, but I was amazed to read just before the advent of Super League York were looking at teaming up with Gateshead to gain a place, York even went as far as playing a home match in Gatsehead. I'm not sure if the suggestion was the teams would merge or that York would simply take the best Gateshead players and split home matches between the two places. I of course knew all about the Calder merger suggestions (Cas/Wakefield/Featherstone) but not this. 

Anyone know anymore? 

According to the Rothmans Yearbook for 95/96, Ryedale-York (as they were at the time) conceived a 'Super League plan' with Gateshead Council on 12/4/95. It also says the intention was to move to Gateshead. No more detail is given. However, it was a Carlisle home match that was played in Gateshead (23/4/95) against York (their last game as Ryedale York). 

Of course, after the second version of the league line up was announced on April 30th, which confimed York as being in Division 2, it was stated that Newcastle Utd had enquired about entering a team in SL, so I suspect it may have been a fairly short lived plan. 

[bowes]

Dewsbury Celtic seem to have a long history given they’re listed in the Heavy Woollen District League above 

[JonM]

8 minutes ago, bowes said:

Dewsbury Celtic seem to have a long history given they’re listed in the Heavy Woollen District League above 

Think they claim to date back to the 1870s, under the name Dewsbury Shamrocks, and switched between football and rugby at various points.