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A well known story, but nicely put over.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/38266996

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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The FFRXIII Twitter feed has been posting from their archives recently. Here's a real beauty! The first ever Rugby League match held in France - a test match between England and Australia. 1933, at the Stade Pershing. If I can make out the caption correctly, that's Vic Hey with the ball.

The image will expand to a pretty decent size when clicked.

DYvisqKXcAAjC8g.jpg

Edited by Futtocks

"We are easily breakable, by illness or falling, or a million other ways of leaving this earthly life. We are just so much mashed potato."  Don Estelle

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43 minutes ago, Futtocks said:

The FFRXIII Twitter feed has been posting from their archives recently. Here's a real beauty! The first ever Rugby League match held in France - a test match between England and Australia. 1933, at the Stade Pershing. If I can make out the caption correctly, that's Vic Hey with the ball.

The image will expand to a pretty decent size when clicked.

DYvisqKXcAAjC8g.jpg

Great find.

Can't believe you just dug out this thread I was doing the same to post about this Facebook Group.

Rugby League Historians (FB Group)

 

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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23 hours ago, Futtocks said:

 If I can make out the caption correctly, that's Vic Hey with the ball.

Almost an unfortunate name, given what followed a few years later.

Some interesting other pictures on that thread, including one of Toulouse's ground from the 1930s.

 

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22 minutes ago, JonM said:

Almost an unfortunate name, given what followed a few years later.

Took me a few seconds, but :biggrin: 

"We are easily breakable, by illness or falling, or a million other ways of leaving this earthly life. We are just so much mashed potato."  Don Estelle

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The recent debate about did Yorkshire give the world RL, in which I played a bit of a devils advocate by pointing out there could be many different claims as to when RL was "invented". set me to thinking about the origins of rugby as a whole. So I have been doing a bit of digging, particularly about firsts (another topic elsewhere).

The story of football from the 12th to 15th(ish) centuries, this my take on it. 

 

 

The first known mention of ball games being played at schools, London in particular is by William Fitzstephens in his “A Description of London” written circa 1174/1183, transcribed by Henry Thomas Riley in 1860 from the original in Latin.

Each year on the day called "Carnival"* schoolboys bring fighting-cocks to their schoolmaster, and the entire morning is given over to the boyish sport, for there is a school holiday for purpose of the cock fights.

After lunch all the youth of the city go out into the fields to take part in a ball game**. The students of each school have their own ball; the workers from each city craft are also carrying their balls. Older citizens, fathers, and wealthy citizens come on horseback to watch their juniors competing, and to relive their own youth vicariously: you can see their inner passions aroused as they watch the action and get caught up in the fun being had by the carefree adolescents.

 *Carnival at this time was Shrove Tuesday.

**The type of ball game isn’t specified and there were many different types of ball games then as there is now. Hand-ball, balloon-ball, camp-ball, hurling (played with a bat and ball), hurling (without a bat) and football were a few of the variations of ball games.

 

It is inferred from the fact that this particular game was played on Shrove Tuesday, a traditional day in many towns, cities and schools for a mass game of football, that this is in fact the same or similar game to that traditionally played in places like Chester, Derby and probably the most famous place for mob football Ashbourne in Derbyshire.

The earliest known reference of ball games apparently being played by university students was in 1303 when "Thomas of Salisbury, a student of Oxford University, found his brother Adam dead, and it was alleged that he was killed by Irish students, whilst playing the ball in the High Street towards Eastgate"*. The game wasn’t being played at the University but on the streets of Oxford.

 *From Morris Marples “A History of Football. Again football isn’t mentioned but it would seem that ball game played was a form of mob football which was generally played on the streets and not in fields.

 

For a reference to football we have to move on to 1314, when Nicholas de Farndone, Lord Mayor of the City of London issued a decree on behalf of King Edward II banning football. The reasons for the ban is cited as “the noise caused by the hustling over large foot balls, in the fields of the public from which many evils might arise.which God forbid”

It seems, that at least in London, football was being played in fields, probably common land, rather than on the streets at this time.

 Edward III went further in 1363 and declared a ban throughout England of a prescribed list of idle pastimes; "moreover we ordain that you prohibit under penalty of imprisonment all and sundry from such stone, wood and iron throwing; handball, football, or hockey; coursing and cock-fighting, or other such idle games".

 It’s interesting that now types of ball games are being differentiated, handball, football and hockey are classed as ball games, the implication being that some form of basic rules are being applied. References are now quite clearly made to the type of ball game rather than a game of ball.

 At the other end of the spectrum in 1321 Pope John XXII granted dispensation of blame to William de Spalding of Shouldham following a death during a game of ball, a game in which the ball was kicked.

"To William de Spalding, canon of Scoldham of the order of Sempringham. During the game at ball as he kicked the ball, a lay friend of his, also called William, ran against him and wounded himself on a sheathed knife carried by the canon, so severely that he died within six days. Dispensation is granted, as no blame is attached to William de Spalding, who, feeling deeply the death of his friend, and fearing what might be said by his enemies, has applied to the pope."

 By the middle of the 14th Century it appears that the game of football is identified as a particular ball game and is being played by school and university students, the clergy and the man in the street. It is dangerous game, though since there wasn’t match reports on every game as today it isn’t easy to establish how dangerous, then as now the deaths tend to grab the headlines.

 It is possible that the first record of a football club comes from the accounts of the Worshipful Company of Brewers, a London trade association for brewers. Their accounts showed that between 1421 and 1423 they charged for the hire of their hall "by the "ffooteballepleyers" twice... 20 pence" listed under the title "crafts and fraternities". Referring to the football players as a fraternity would mean this was an organised group of players who probably played together, a club.

Around 1430 there is reference to football being played in East Anglia, the game here was Camp Ball, Thomas Lydgate also leaves a hint as to where the name Camp Ball is derived from "Bolseryd out of length and bread, lyck a large campynge balle", it seems Camp was short for Campaign.  A 1440 dictionary confirms this to be a form of football.

The rector of Swafham in Norfolk bequeathed to his parish a field that adjoined the churchyard specifically for the use as a “Camping Close”, for the playing of Camp Ball (football). It appears that this the first reference to a football field that is set aside for the playing of the sport.

 All of this points to football being formalised a lot earlier than we tend to think, no doubt over the next years and decades there were a lot more football fraternities and Camping Close. The use of the word close is significant as at Rugby School talk of football being played on the close is often referenced, presumably this is taken from enclosure as Rugby School still has The Close which is a grassed playing area.

 Although by the mid-fifteenth century we can see football being played in some form all over the country and the early possible formation of clubs and land set aside as a football field there is little known of the game itself.  For that we must wait until the latter end of the 15th  century.

In a set of manuscripts commissioned by John Morgan dean of Windsor, dated between 1481 and 1496 and known as the Miracles of Henry VI, fittingly towards the end of the Wars of the Roses, there is a description of a football game played at Caunton* in Nottinghamshire.

*Often referred to as Cawston, the original manuscripts were in Latin and translated, and as with surnames place names could change slightly over time or be misinterpreted once and it sticks. There are places named Cawston but the chronicles specifically mention a place in Nottinghamshire.

 What is described in the Miracles of Henry VI is a kicking game:

 "The game at which they had met for common recreation is called by some the football game. It is one in which young men, in country sport, propel a huge ball not by throwing it into the air but by striking it and rolling it along the ground, and that not with their hands but with their feet... kicking in opposite directions"

 There is one other thing of significance in the chronicle, it is the first description of a pitch being marked out.  Previously the aim of the ball game was to get the ball to a specific place but no boundaries were stated as to how it got there.

 "The boundaries have been marked and the game had started, a game, I say, abominable enough . . . and rarely ending but with some loss, accident, or disadvantage of the players themselves."

 The game though becoming more formal, played within specific boundaries and with specific aims was still described as violent and this is why it made it into the Miracle Chronicles. A young player was injured during the game “in the most sensitive parts while playing football”. Nothing unusual in that but the young player claimed, after days of incapacity, that he was cured after he had a vision of “glorious King Henry”. The footballer was taken to Windsor to recount his story and whilst there was asked to demonstrate the football game to the palace courtiers.

 The poet Alexander Barcley provides a description of a kicking and handling game in 1510.

 “They get the bladder and blowe it great and thin, with many beanes and peason put within, It ratleth, shineth and soundeth clere and fayre, While it is throwen and caste up in the eyre, Eche one contendeth and hath a great delite, with foote and hande the bladder for to smite, if it fall to the ground they lifte it up again... Overcometh the winter with driving the foote-ball.”

What the chronicles tell us though is that the kicking game was considered unusual, it specifically has to mention that it was not a handling game. The chronicles even contain a description of dribbling. Barcley then provides a description of a game that uses hand and foot. At this point we seem to have a divergence into a kicking game, a handling game and a hybrid kicking and handling version.

Edited by Padge
edited to remove enclosed from reference to The Close
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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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Well done. Thats a great bit of research.

Just a little correction if you dont mind.

"The Close" at Rugby School isn't enclosed, its an open field bounded by public roads on two sides. Anyone can just walk onto it. 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&client=tablet-android-samsung&source=android-browser&q=the+close+rugby+school&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=n1S2Wq3hCs3G8Afyl5zgBQ#gfe_rd=cr&imgrc=YJrL_IIGz5nn-M:

A little piece of history. The very first rugby league game played on it was between Coventry Bears v Royal Engineers. It was followed by a game between GB greats v Australian greats as part of the build up to the 2000 World Cup.

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Ron Banks

Midlands Hurricanes and Barrow

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2 hours ago, Bearman said:

Well done. Thats a great bit of research.

Just a little correction if you dont mind.

"The Close" at Rugby School isn't enclosed, its an open field bounded by public roads on two sides. Anyone can just walk onto it. 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&client=tablet-android-samsung&source=android-browser&q=the+close+rugby+school&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=n1S2Wq3hCs3G8Afyl5zgBQ#gfe_rd=cr&imgrc=YJrL_IIGz5nn-M:

A little piece of history. The very first rugby league game played on it was between Coventry Bears v Royal Engineers. It was followed by a game between GB greats v Australian greats as part of the build up to the 2000 World Cup.

Thanks for that, corrections are always welcome.

That means that my perception of close coming from enclosure is probably wrong, the question then is why "close"?

Answers on a postcard please or just on a post.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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21 hours ago, Bearman said:

Well done. Thats a great bit of research.

Just a little correction if you dont mind.

"The Close" at Rugby School isn't enclosed, its an open field bounded by public roads on two sides. Anyone can just walk onto it. 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&client=tablet-android-samsung&source=android-browser&q=the+close+rugby+school&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=n1S2Wq3hCs3G8Afyl5zgBQ#gfe_rd=cr&imgrc=YJrL_IIGz5nn-M:

A little piece of history. The very first rugby league game played on it was between Coventry Bears v Royal Engineers. It was followed by a game between GB greats v Australian greats as part of the build up to the 2000 World Cup.

 

I have just done a tour using streetview, The close appears to be walled and fenced all around, unless I am looking at the wrong place?

 

 

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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6 hours ago, Padge said:

 

I have just done a tour using streetview, The close appears to be walled and fenced all around, unless I am looking at the wrong place?

 

 

Yes, i've just checked and there is now a low fence along Barby Rd. I think thats new though. Its probably part of safety requirements that schools have to do these days.

Google earth Barby Rd Rugby.

Edited by Bearman

Ron Banks

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14 minutes ago, Bearman said:

Yes, i've just checked and there is now a low fence along Barby Rd. I think thats new though. Its probably part of safety requirements that schools have to do these days.

Google earth Barby Rd Rugby.

Thanks for that.

Now the question is was it enclosed in the 1800's

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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16 minutes ago, Padge said:

Thanks for that.

Now the question is was it enclosed in the 1800's

It wasn't in 2000.

Which of course does not answer your question!

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Ron Banks

Midlands Hurricanes and Barrow

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Another little bit of history which is QI.

The first England soccer team was largely made of of pupils from Rugby School.

They were in "School House" whose colours were black and white and were  adapted from the Jolly Roger. Black " Nickers"  ( well you know what public school types are like?) and white shirts.

It was convenient to play in their school kit....and thats why England traditionally play in black shorts and white shirts. 

Thats the story they tell at Rugby School anyway (given that they perpetuate the Webb Ellis story I will leave you to judge its veracity)

Edited by Bearman

Ron Banks

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5 minutes ago, Bearman said:

Another little bit of history which is QI.

The first England soccer team was largely made of of pupils from Rugby School.

They were in "School House" whose colours were black and white and were  adapted from the Jolly Roger. Black " Nickers"  ( well you know what public school types are like?) and white shirts.

It was convenient to play in their school kit....and thats wht Enhland traditionally play in black shorts and white shirts. 

Thats the story they tell at Rugby School anyway (given that they perpetuate the Webb Ellis story I will leave you to judge its veracity)

Don’t England football play in blue shorts. 

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Clever Sods! 

My bad, it was England Rugby that adopted the School House colours which it seems were all white 

https://www.rugbyschool.co.uk/about/history/a-history-of-rugby-football/

I dont know where I got the black and white from......."I'm an old age pensioner you know" thats the excuse I use when I'm caught shop lifting too....works for me

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Ron Banks

Midlands Hurricanes and Barrow

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13 hours ago, Bearman said:

Clever Sods! 

My bad, it was England Rugby that adopted the School House colours which it seems were all white 

https://www.rugbyschool.co.uk/about/history/a-history-of-rugby-football/

I dont know where I got the black and white from......."I'm an old age pensioner you know" thats the excuse I use when I'm caught shop lifting too....works for me

Nurse he’s out of bed again. ?

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On 3/24/2018 at 1:47 PM, Bearman said:

Well done. Thats a great bit of research.

Just a little correction if you dont mind.

"The Close" at Rugby School isn't enclosed, its an open field bounded by public roads on two sides. Anyone can just walk onto it. 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&client=tablet-android-samsung&source=android-browser&q=the+close+rugby+school&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=n1S2Wq3hCs3G8Afyl5zgBQ#gfe_rd=cr&imgrc=YJrL_IIGz5nn-M:

A little piece of history. The very first rugby league game played on it was between Coventry Bears v Royal Engineers. It was followed by a game between GB greats v Australian greats as part of the build up to the 2000 World Cup.

I have removed the reference about the Close being enclosed as I can't verify if it  was in the  1500s, the reason it may now be fenced all around is because there is a festival held on the site annually, a more recent addition to its uses.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 1:21 PM, Padge said:

The recent debate about did Yorkshire give the world RL, in which I played a bit of a devils advocate by pointing out there could be many different claims as to when RL was "invented". set me to thinking about the origins of rugby as a whole. So I have been doing a bit of digging, particularly about firsts (another topic elsewhere).

The story of football from the 12th to 15th(ish) centuries, this my take on it. 

 

 

The first known mention of ball games being played at schools, London in particular is by William Fitzstephens in his “A Description of London” written circa 1174/1183, transcribed by Henry Thomas Riley in 1860 from the original in Latin.

Each year on the day called "Carnival"* schoolboys bring fighting-cocks to their schoolmaster, and the entire morning is given over to the boyish sport, for there is a school holiday for purpose of the cock fights.

After lunch all the youth of the city go out into the fields to take part in a ball game**. The students of each school have their own ball; the workers from each city craft are also carrying their balls. Older citizens, fathers, and wealthy citizens come on horseback to watch their juniors competing, and to relive their own youth vicariously: you can see their inner passions aroused as they watch the action and get caught up in the fun being had by the carefree adolescents.

 *Carnival at this time was Shrove Tuesday.

**The type of ball game isn’t specified and there were many different types of ball games then as there is now. Hand-ball, balloon-ball, camp-ball, hurling (played with a bat and ball), hurling (without a bat) and football were a few of the variations of ball games.

 

It is inferred from the fact that this particular game was played on Shrove Tuesday, a traditional day in many towns, cities and schools for a mass game of football, that this is in fact the same or similar game to that traditionally played in places like Chester, Derby and probably the most famous place for mob football Ashburton in Derbyshire.

The earliest known reference of ball games apparently being played by university students was in 1303 when "Thomas of Salisbury, a student of Oxford University, found his brother Adam dead, and it was alleged that he was killed by Irish students, whilst playing the ball in the High Street towards Eastgate"*. The game wasn’t being played at the University but on the streets of Oxford.

 *From Morris Marples “A History of Football. Again football isn’t mentioned but it would seem that ball game played was a form of mob football which was generally played on the streets and not in fields.

 

For a reference to football we have to move on to 1314, when Nicholas de Farndone, Lord Mayor of the City of London issued a decree on behalf of King Edward II banning football. The reasons for the ban is cited as “the noise caused by the hustling over large foot balls, in the fields of the public from which many evils might arise.which God forbid”

It seems, that at least in London, football was being played in fields, probably common land, rather than on the streets at this time.

 Edward III went further in 1363 and declared a ban throughout England of a prescribed list of idle pastimes; "moreover we ordain that you prohibit under penalty of imprisonment all and sundry from such stone, wood and iron throwing; handball, football, or hockey; coursing and cock-fighting, or other such idle games".

 It’s interesting that now types of ball games are being differentiated, handball, football and hockey are classed as ball games, the implication being that some form of basic rules are being applied. References are now quite clearly made to the type of ball game rather than a game of ball.

 At the other end of the spectrum in 1321 Pope John XXII granted dispensation of blame to William de Spalding of Shouldham following a death during a game of ball, a game in which the ball was kicked.

"To William de Spalding, canon of Scoldham of the order of Sempringham. During the game at ball as he kicked the ball, a lay friend of his, also called William, ran against him and wounded himself on a sheathed knife carried by the canon, so severely that he died within six days. Dispensation is granted, as no blame is attached to William de Spalding, who, feeling deeply the death of his friend, and fearing what might be said by his enemies, has applied to the pope."

 By the middle of the 14th Century it appears that the game of football is identified as a particular ball game and is being played by school and university students, the clergy and the man in the street. It is dangerous game, though since there wasn’t match reports on every game as today it isn’t easy to establish how dangerous, then as now the deaths tend to grab the headlines.

 It is possible that the first record of a football club comes from the accounts of the Worshipful Company of Brewers, a London trade association for brewers. Their accounts showed that between 1421 and 1423 they charged for the hire of their hall "by the "ffooteballepleyers" twice... 20 pence" listed under the title "crafts and fraternities". Referring to the football players as a fraternity would mean this was an organised group of players who probably played together, a club.

Around 1430 there is reference to football being played in East Anglia, the game here was Camp Ball, Thomas Lydgate also leaves a hint as to where the name Camp Ball is derived from "Bolseryd out of length and bread, lyck a large campynge balle", it seems Camp was short for Campaign.  A 1440 dictionary confirms this to be a form of football.

The rector of Swafham in Norfolk bequeathed to his parish a field that adjoined the churchyard specifically for the use as a “Camping Close”, for the playing of Camp Ball (football). It appears that this the first reference to a football field that is set aside for the playing of the sport.

 All of this points to football being formalised a lot earlier than we tend to think, no doubt over the next years and decades there were a lot more football fraternities and Camping Close. The use of the word close is significant as at Rugby School talk of football being played on the close is often referenced, presumably this is taken from enclosure as Rugby School still has The Close which is an enclosed grassed playing area.

 Although by the mid-fifteenth century we can see football being played in some form all over the country and the early possible formation of clubs and land set aside as a football field there is little known of the game itself.  For that we must wait until the latter end of the 15th  century.

In a set of manuscripts commissioned by John Morgan dean of Windsor, dated between 1481 and 1496 and known as the Miracles of Henry VI, fittingly towards the end of the Wars of the Roses, there is a description of a football game played at Caunton* in Nottinghamshire.

*Often referred to as Cawston, the original manuscripts were in Latin and translated, and as with surnames place names could change slightly over time or be misinterpreted once and it sticks. There are places named Cawston but the chronicles specifically mention a place in Nottinghamshire.

 What is described in the Miracles of Henry VI is a kicking game:

 "The game at which they had met for common recreation is called by some the football game. It is one in which young men, in country sport, propel a huge ball not by throwing it into the air but by striking it and rolling it along the ground, and that not with their hands but with their feet... kicking in opposite directions"

 There is one other thing of significance in the chronicle, it is the first description of a pitch being marked out.  Previously the aim of the ball game was to get the ball to a specific place but no boundaries were stated as to how it got there.

 "The boundaries have been marked and the game had started, a game, I say, abominable enough . . . and rarely ending but with some loss, accident, or disadvantage of the players themselves."

 The game though becoming more formal, played within specific boundaries and with specific aims was still described as violent and this is why it made it into the Miracle Chronicles. A young player was injured during the game “in the most sensitive parts while playing football”. Nothing unusual in that but the young player claimed, after days of incapacity, that he was cured after he had a vision of “glorious King Henry”. The footballer was taken to Windsor to recount his story and whilst there was asked to demonstrate the football game to the palace courtiers.

 The poet Alexander Barcley provides a description of a kicking and handling game in 1510.

 “They get the bladder and blowe it great and thin, with many beanes and peason put within, It ratleth, shineth and soundeth clere and fayre, While it is throwen and caste up in the eyre, Eche one contendeth and hath a great delite, with foote and hande the bladder for to smite, if it fall to the ground they lifte it up again... Overcometh the winter with driving the foote-ball.”

What the chronicles tell us though is that the kicking game was considered unusual, it specifically has to mention that it was not a handling game. The chronicles even contain a description of dribbling. Barcley then provides a description of a game that uses hand and foot. At this point we seem to have a divergence into a kicking game, a handling game and a hybrid kicking and handling version.

I always enjoy your contributions on sporting history, Padge, and this is no exception; many thanks for it.

A few points, related to text I have highlighted.  Christina Hole, in English Custom and Usage, notes that "Shrove Tuesday was...the last opportunity for merry-making before Lent began, and was kept as a general holiday.  Games and sports of every kind, cock-fighting and wrestling and the less reputable 'thrashing the hen' were the order of the day...Street football was, and still is, played in a number of places."  She mentions Chester-Le-Street, Ashbourne, Atherstone, Sedgefield, Alnwick and Corfe Castle.  She also mentions Cornish hurling (nothing like Irish hurling, by the way) at St Columb Major on Shrove Tuesday and at St Ives the day before (Quinquagesima Monday)  I personally have seen the closing stages of the Ashbourne game and, as a child was driven through the streets of St Columb Major with all the shops boarded up in readiness for the hurling!  Hole's book was first published during WWII.  I think at some point in the year (possibly Shrove Tuesday, possibly not) there has been a tradition of playing football in the (very shallow!) river in the middle of Bourton-on-the-Water.

For 'Ashburton', I think you mean 'Ashbourne'.

I would not call the Worshipful Company of Brewers a trade association.  They were - and are - one of the livery companies of the City of London.  Yes, there was a trade association element to what they did, but more than that.  Indeed, many of these livery companies nowadays have little direct connection with their trade, their main activity being their charitable work (which may or may not relate to their profession).  The brewers, incidentally, rank 14th in order of precedence, out of 107 such bodies.  Not all are old professions, by the way; the Worshipful Company of Information technologists (ranked 100th) demonstrate that!  Because a livery company was, historically, a male-dominated group of like-minded/employed people, I would think 'fraternity' could equally refer to any such company.  So, I am not persuaded that you can deduce that what is being referred to here is a sports (ie football) club; it might be, but might not!

There is indeed a village of Caunton in Nottinghamshire; it is north-west of Newark-on-Trent, just off the road to Mansfield.

As I said, Padge, great post and many thanks for it.

 

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36 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

She also mentions Cornish hurling (nothing like Irish hurling, by the way) at St Columb Major on Shrove Tuesday and at St Ives the day before (Quinquagesima Monday) 

Just a quick reply before I look at your other points, and I always welcome corrections/alternatives on this stuff. The St.Ives one is known as Hurling the Silver Ball and I have been there when it happens, in early February.

I have pictures of the start of the 'game' here. In the third pic you can see the Silver Ball as the mayor launches it to the youths on the beach. The lad in the black shirts gets it and sets off with everyone else in pursuit. 

Edited by Padge
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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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44 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

 

For 'Ashburton', I think you mean 'Ashbourne'.

Corrected, I should have bloody known that. :rolleyes:

Thanks

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 hour ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

 

1. Christina Hole, in English Custom and Usage, notes that "Shrove Tuesday was...the last opportunity for merry-making before Lent began, and was kept as a general holiday.  Games and sports of every kind, cock-fighting and wrestling and the less reputable 'thrashing the hen' were the order of the day...

2. I would not call the Worshipful Company of Brewers a trade association.  They were - and are - one of the livery companies of the City of London.  Yes, there was a trade association element to what they did, but more than that.  

3. There is indeed a village of Caunton in Nottinghamshire; it is north-west of Newark-on-Trent, just off the road to Mansfield.

4. As I said, Padge, great post and many thanks for it.

 

1.  In the piece I did say that it was being implied that the game was football as this was traditionally played on Shrove Tuesday in, as you highlighted, many places all over the country. I don't know if it was the case that everyone treated it as a holiday, in my quote it talks of the wealthy, elders and fathers coming to watch, that sort of implies not everyone had "the day off".

2. I was trying to use a term that would sort of cover it without having to go into a lot of detail about what a livery was.

3. That was the only place I found that fitted the bill and I presume, as I said that there has been some sort of corruption. The Council website for Caunton does actgualy lay claim to it being the placed referred to in the manuscripts.

4. Thank you. 

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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12 hours ago, Padge said:

I have removed the reference about the Close being enclosed as I can't verify if it  was in the  1500s, the reason it may now be fenced all around is because there is a festival held on the site annually, a more recent addition to its uses.

I wonder if " close" is a shortened form of "close by" ( near ) as in the near field? 

Ron Banks

Midlands Hurricanes and Barrow

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On ‎21‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 8:38 PM, JonM said:

Almost an unfortunate name, given what followed a few years later.

 

 

That's spooky.

This world was never meant for one as beautiful as me.
 
 
Wakefield Trinity RLFC
2012 - 2014 "The wasted years"

2013, 2014 & 2015 Official Magic Weekend "Whipping Boys"

2017 - The year the dream disappeared under Grix's left foot.

2018 - The FinniChezz Bromance 

2019 - The Return of the Prodigal Son

 

 

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