Rugby History Thread

[Mister Ting]

Kicking is mentioned several times, dribbling also is mentioned. Was the game more like 'football'?

[Number 16]

6 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Thanks for that, No 16; I did wonder about that.

Still made for a pretty gloomy and dark viewing on a winter's afternoon!

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

1 hour ago, Number 16 said:

Daylight Saving wasn't introduced until 1916, so the clocks wouldn't have gone back, thus 1890's 4.50pm would be modern day 3.50pm. I think!!!

No, it was the other way round - until 1916 we were always on GMT (the time we're on now), daylight saving meant an hour extra's daylight in the evening. Sunset at the end of January is at about 16.45, so they might just have made it, particularly if they just changed ends without a long break -  something that happened in RU even at international level (certainly in the Northern Hemisphere) as little as 25 years ago.

[Number 16]

Fair enough, that's me told! That's 40+ years of misunderstanding put right!!!

[Padge]

If you start with the heading, note it is Football, the sub-heading is Rugby. The type of game is first Football the code is Rugby, following this after a few more match reports (not shown in my clip) is a second sub-heading Association and match reports follow for soccer.

We then have the competition West Lancashire Rugby League, now this to me shows that we really did miss a trick when we split. The press were already familiar with the idea of a Rugby League competition and in 1890 were referring to it.  We decided to call ourselves the Northern Union, probably in some vain hope that the RFU would concede to the demand for a combined Lancashire and Yorkshire Union of the senior clubs and allow the Northern Union to return to the fold.

If at the split we had gone for naming the game Rugby League, thus differentiating ourselves from the game being run by the RFU, to the RFU we were trying to take over their game and not starting a new one. We should have declared ourselves as a new code of football named Rugby League, it was a term people were familiar with and was unlikely to confuse people. The mention of dribbling shows that although soccer and rugby had diverged there were still similarities we could have taken out dribbling and made the few other early tweaks we made to the laws immediately so as to differentiate our game as a different code.

By persisting with wanting to be the same code but a different governing body we made a rod for our own backs.

 

 

[Futtocks]

5 hours ago, Mister Ting said:

Kicking is mentioned several times, dribbling also is mentioned. Was the game more like 'football'?

I remember, at public school, they showed an old B&W coaching film for RU that included dribbling. It was a sort of fast penguin-shuffle, with the ball rolling on its long axis, tapped forward by alternate feet. Not sure how much use it'd be in an actual game. 

[RP London]

19 hours ago, Padge said:

If you start with the heading, note it is Football, the sub-heading is Rugby. The type of game is first Football the code is Rugby, following this after a few more match reports (not shown in my clip) is a second sub-heading Association and match reports follow for soccer.

We then have the competition West Lancashire Rugby League, now this to me shows that we really did miss a trick when we split. The press were already familiar with the idea of a Rugby League competition and in 1890 were referring to it.  We decided to call ourselves the Northern Union, probably in some vain hope that the RFU would concede to the demand for a combined Lancashire and Yorkshire Union of the senior clubs and allow the Northern Union to return to the fold.

If at the split we had gone for naming the game Rugby League, thus differentiating ourselves from the game being run by the RFU, to the RFU we were trying to take over their game and not starting a new one. We should have declared ourselves as a new code of football named Rugby League, it was a term people were familiar with and was unlikely to confuse people. The mention of dribbling shows that although soccer and rugby had diverged there were still similarities we could have taken out dribbling and made the few other early tweaks we made to the laws immediately so as to differentiate our game as a different code.

By persisting with wanting to be the same code but a different governing body we made a rod for our own backs.

 

 

with 20:20 hindsight its hard to disagree but at the time the aim was not to make a new sport but to force the hand and "return to the fold" but with "professionalism" allowed. If we are to go to the extreme if they were truly intent on starting a new code they should have called it something completely different but I don't believe that that is what they were wanting to do initially.

Great to see these articles though.

[Padge]

9 hours ago, RP London said:

with 20:20 hindsight its hard to disagree but at the time the aim was not to make a new sport but to force the hand and "return to the fold" but with "professionalism" allowed. If we are to go to the extreme if they were truly intent on starting a new code they should have called it something completely different but I don't believe that that is what they were wanting to do initially.

Great to see these articles though.

I totally agree, the Northern clubs, in my opinion, thought the RFU would concede, but it must have very quickly become apparent that the split was going to be permanent, if they didn't think so they wouldn't have started tinkering with the laws so soon after the split. 

On the subject of dribbling technically it is still legal,

Edited January 2, 2019 by Padge

[Marauder]

On 1/1/2019 at 3:22 PM, Futtocks said:

I remember, at public school, they showed an old B&W coaching film for RU that included dribbling. It was a sort of fast penguin-shuffle, with the ball rolling on its long axis, tapped forward by alternate feet. Not sure how much use it'd be in an actual game. 

you can't be tackled whilst dribbling the ball.

[bobbruce]

2 minutes ago, Marauder said:

you can't be tackled whilst dribbling the ball.

I would imagine dropping on the ball at someone’s feet in 1895 took a lot of guts  even in the 1980s RU players would’ve given you a good kicking 

 

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

I would imagine dropping on the ball at someone’s feet in 1895 took a lot of guts  even in the 1980s RU players would’ve given you a good kicking 

 

Methods of retrieving the ball while it's being dribbled,; shoulder charging when running in the same direction, football style tackling and dropping on the ball

[Bleep1673]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 10:50 AM, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

No, it was the other way round - until 1916 we were always on GMT (the time we're on now), daylight saving meant an hour extra's daylight in the evening. Sunset at the end of January is at about 16.45, so they might just have made it, particularly if they just changed ends without a long break -  something that happened in RU even at international level (certainly in the Northern Hemisphere) as little as 25 years ago.

Didn't we during WW2 go to double Summer time?

In the summers of 1941 to 1945, during the Second World War, Britain was two hours ahead of GMT and operating on British Double Summer Time (BDST). To bring this about, the clocks were not put back by an hour at the end of summer in 1940; in subsequent years, clocks continued to be advanced by one hour each spring and put back by an hour each autumn until July 1945. The clocks were brought back in line with GMT at the end of summer in 1945. In 1947, due to severe fuel shortages, clocks were advanced by one hour on two occasions during the spring, and put back by one hour on two occasions during the autumn, meaning that Britain was back on BDST during that summer.

c/o Wiki

Edited January 2, 2019 by Bleep1673

[Dunbar]

Arranging kick off's about 100 minutes before sunset with no floodlights could be an alternative to the shot clock.

[Bleep1673]

3 things, Spain was on the same time as UK, but  after the Spanish Civil War, they sided with German time, ie, CET, & have never gone back.

The reason Germany play in Green shirts as their away/change colours, is because Ireland were the first opponents after the war, and so adopted Irelands Green as their second colour.

Finally, at my secondary school, we used to play football (Soccer), with a rugby ball, without football goals, on a rugby pitch, rules were 1) no stamping on opposition, 2) no forward passing. Scoring was a touch-down/try, and there was no other rules. No One should die though.

[Padge]

On the subject of Rugby League in the 1890s I have unearthed this.

[RP London]

On 1/2/2019 at 6:16 PM, Padge said:

I totally agree, the Northern clubs, in my opinion, thought the RFU would concede, but it must have very quickly become apparent that the split was going to be permanent, if they didn't think so they wouldn't have started tinkering with the laws so soon after the split. 

On the subject of dribbling technically it is still legal,

yes thats probably a fair call. 

[metallithrax]

Some of you might have seen this particular article before.

 

 

[metallithrax]

And another one:

[Codex]

15 hours ago, metallithrax said:

And another one:

 

It was one of the worst acts of thuggery I have ever seen and also one of the most cowardly. He shouldn't be held up as some kind of hardman, Mills was a just a violent thug. 

[audois]

First French steps 1934 - Jean Galia & Jim Sullivan with Wigan Mayor.

[Padge]

Photo of the Northern Union v New Zealand at Stamford Bridge Feb. 1908

Guy making the break is Eccles who scored one of the two N.U. tries in an 18-6 loss, attendance 14,000

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Padge

[Clogiron]

4 minutes ago, Padge said:

Photo of the Northern Union v New Zealand at Stamford Bridge Feb. 1908

Guy making the break is Eccles who scored one of the two N.U. tries in an 18-6 loss, attendance 14,000

 

The thing I always notice in photo's from that era is the size of the ball and how it is much more rounded than today's,. Might have made the rushes/dribbling of the day easier.

[henage]

Can clearly remember heading down to London with what seemed like hundreds of other kids (probably was)

Hyde park , Wembley , show , tea , train home . good times . Cutting is from years ago ....

Edited February 6, 2019 by henage

[Padge]

On 3/18/2019 at 12:13 AM, Gram said:

Request for Information-

I feel sure this may well have been previously discussed, but to save hours searching-

when the NRU returned to one division for season 1901/02- together with separate Yorks/Lancs Senior Competitions, following the addition of a Second Division in 1902/03, when were the Senior Competitions re-established – presumably as reserve leagues?

While thumbing through some newspaper archives last year, I became aware of the ‘second competitions’ – which included the short lived NRU Bradford based Bowling club, who appear to have disbanded c1900.

Do any members know which year these second competitions were established- & discontinued, & if any results &/or league tables have been compiled over time? If records exist, it will save much scrolling through newspaper archive. Thanks in advance.

[Lowdesert]

On 2/6/2019 at 11:39 PM, henage said:

Can clearly remember heading down to London with what seemed like hundreds of other kids (probably was)

Hyde park , Wembley , show , tea , train home . good times . Cutting is from years ago ....

I remember him.  He worked alongside Jim Brown as well for the amateur league.  I think he was Alan Kirbys father who became involved coaching Humberside.