Rugby History Thread

[marklaspalmas]

A minor point was awarded for grounding the ball in your own goal, it was worth one point.

 

To the opposition, right?

 

How much were goals and tries worth at that time?

[shaun mc]

Am currently reading this at the moment:

The Same Old Game: Codification: The true story of the origins of the world's football games: 2Paperback– 17 Nov 2011

by

Mike Roberts(Author)

 

Although the Football Association was founded in 1863 to draw up simple rules for a game to unite the football community, a unified code was never to be. In the second of two volumes on the origins of football, Mike Roberts tells the story of how and why so many different versions of the same game came into existence. For a start, in Melbourne, Australia, the local footballers had already agreed to their own rules before the FA was even formed, and the game they created is still played today - arguably the oldest and most 'authentic' member of the football family. Back in Britain, the clubs that preferred a more physical game in which the ball could be carried were not convinced by FA's kicking game. Instead, they formed their own association and developed the rival code of rugby. And there was yet more division to come with the infamous schism between rugby union and what became rugby league. But neither soccer nor rugby were always welcomed in Ireland, which was fighting to preserve its own separate identity. In defiance against these foreign games, the Gaelic Athletic Association was founded and devised its own set of rules. The story also takes us to North America, and shows how and why rugby was adopted in the United States but was soon changed into the different sport of American football. And not forgetting Canada, whose own game developed in a similar fashion to the American one, but never quite entirely. Each of these sports have built up their own histories and traditions. But although these are now usually told separately, by treating them all as The Same Old Game, Mike Roberts reveals how each of the codes share a common ancestry. Visit The Same Old Game website for full details and also to learn about The Same Old Game Volume One: Before Codification

 

Fascinating Stuff

[Padge]

It was called a "Rouge" wasnt it? I recall Steve May on here giving some details on it a few years ago

 

Some clubs did call it a "Rouge", other clubs/schools used "Rouge for a different type of touchdown.

 

I did have some notes on a lot of early rules, I'll have to dig them out.

[Padge]

To the opposition, right?

 

How much were goals and tries worth at that time?

 

 

In the early years the only way to score was to kick a goal, either by drop kick or place kick. They merely counted the number of goals kicked by each side and the one with the most won. A place kick could be taken following a fair catch (a clean catch of the ball from an opposition punt in play), a drop goal could be attempted at any time.

 

 

At Rugby school if a game had been going on for 5 days with the number of goals kicked equal then a draw was delared, except when neither team had kicked a goal after 3 days, in that case a draw would be declared on the third day.

 

As the game developed, a touchdown behind the goal line would allow a team to have a "try" at goal.

 

In the early 1880s some clubs and schools started to devop their own points systems, a few of those allowed the minor point or rouge with a value of one point. Some schools used Rouge as a general term a score.

 

In 1886 the RFU agreed to a points scoring system that was as follows. A goal had a value of 3 points, a touchdown (try) worth 1 point. If a try was scored, then if you kicked the goal you got your 3 points for the goal but nothing for the try. If you missed your try at goal then you were awarded the one point for the try. In effect a conversion had become 2 points.

 

So at this stage scoring is as follows.

 

Drop Goal 3 points

Penalty Goal 3 Points (though not introduced immediatley with the other scores)

Conversion 2 points

Try 1 point.

 

A couple of years later the penalty was dropped to 2 points.

 

In 1891 the International board adopted a different scoring system.

 

Penalty Goal 3 points

Drop Goal 4 points

Field Goal (from a fair catch or Mark as it was now known) 4 points

A goal from a try 5 points (no points for the try)

A try 2 points if goal not scored.

 

The last two really means a conversion is worth 3 points and a try two points. At this stage though it wasn't considered a conversion but still a try at goal.

 

In 1893 a more familiar scoring system is adopted.

 

A try 3 points

Conversion 2 points 

 

Swapping those two around resulted in the same value but a higher value for the first time on the try than the goal and it was now accepted as a conversion.

 

A drop goal (in play) is 4 points

Goal from a Mark 3 points

Goal from a Penalty 3 points

 

Note, you could drop kick a penalty or mark attempt at goal but it did not carry the value of a drop goal in general play.

[shaun mc]

My dad went to a Grammar School in West Cumbria and guess which sport they didn't play?? This would be in the middle of Workington Towns 3 trips to Wembley in the 50's.

Anyway he said that in union at the time when a conversion was attempted the ball wasn't allowed to touch the ground. You had to cup the bottom of the ball with a hand between the ball and the grass, then the other hand held the ball up at the right angle for the kicker. Then at the last moment before the kicker connected with the ball you pulled both hands away. Dangerous!

Edited October 29, 2015 by shaun mc

[Steve Fox]

My dad went to a Grammar School in West Cumbria and guess which sport they didn't play?? This would be in the middle of Workington Towns 3 trips to Wembley in the 50's.

Anyway he said that in union at the time when a conversion was attempted the ball wasn't allowed to touch the ground. You had to cup the bottom of the ball with a hand between the ball and the grass, then the other hand held the ball up at the right angle for the kicker. Then at the last moment before the kicker connected with the ball you pulled both hands away. Dangerous!

Very much like the holder on an American football conversion or field goal. I think I'm right in saying that it was a 3 man job. One would be on the goal line at the point where the try was scored. He'd throw the ball to the holder who would place it on the ground for the kicker to attempt the goal. The defenders were allowed to charge the kick.

As well as a drop goal there was also a field goal which was a rolling ball on the floor that was fly hacked through the posts and over the crossbar. I've read hundreds of match reports from pre 1895 and can't say I've seen reference to a single FG.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Steve Fox

[Steve Fox]

Very much like the holder on an American football conversion or field goal. I think I'm right in saying that it was a 3 man job. One would be on the goal line at the point where the try was scored. He'd throw (or punt??) the ball to the holder who would place it on the ground for the kicker to attempt the goal. The defenders were allowed to charge the kick.

As well as a drop goal there was also a field goal which was a rolling ball on the floor that was fly hacked through the posts and over the crossbar. I've read hundreds of match reports from pre 1895 and can't say I've seen reference to a single FG.

[Padge]

Very much like the holder on an American football conversion or field goal. I think I'm right in saying that it was a 3 man job. One would be on the goal line at the point where the try was scored. He'd throw the ball to the holder who would place it on the ground for the kicker to attempt the goal. The defenders were allowed to charge the kick.

As well as a drop goal there was also a field goal which was a rolling ball on the floor that was fly hacked through the posts and over the crossbar. I've read hundreds of match reports from pre 1895 and can't say I've seen reference to a single FG

 

A field goal often seems to refer a kick at goal from a "fair catch" later to become the "mark", that could be placed or dropped.

 

If an opponent punted the ball up field and a player caught it cleanly it was deemed a "fair catch", This meant that the opposition could not tackle you until you decided run the ball or take up the option of a free kick. The kick could be an unchallenged punt back up field or if within range a shot at goal from a place kick or from a drop.

[Futtocks]

I remember being shown a B&W training film that addressed the skill of dribbling a Rugby ball. As far as I recall, it involved a toes-out, short-stepping running style, tapping the ball with alternate feet so it rolled more or less along its axis.

 

Have I ever seen it in a match? Er, no.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Futtocks

[Padge]

I remember being shown a B&W training film that addressed the skill of dribbling a Rugby ball. As far as I recall, it involved a toes-out, short-stepping running style, tapping the ball with alternate feet so it rolled more or less along its axis.

 

Have I ever seen it in a match? Er, no.

 

Dribbling was an early feature of "Football" (not soccer). Particularly as played at Eton and Harrow.

 

Here is an early snippet from a book describing the game. It makes an interesting observation.

 

As at present played, the Harrow game teaches

chiefly how to dribble and how to charge, and its main

requirement is that a player shall always be on the ball.

The weight of this last makes it easier to keep it close

to the feet, and though the irregular shape is at first

very puzzling, a good player soon acquires a wonderful

command over the ball, and takes it along with a speed

and certainty that are marvellous to behold. The skill

thus gained may be nearly as useful afterwards to the

Rugby as to the^Association player. In the latter game

it can rarely be right to dribble for any distance instead

of passing, whereas in the former, a running and tack-

ling team may be considerably disconcerted by judicious

play with the feet. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Padge

[Steve Fox]

I remember being shown a B&W training film that addressed the skill of dribbling a Rugby ball. As far as I recall, it involved a toes-out, short-stepping running style, tapping the ball with alternate feet so it rolled more or less along its axis.

Have I ever seen it in a match? Er, no.

The old style rugby balls were a lot rounder so dribbling would have been easier than now.

[EastLondonMike]

Something for the fans of history, and old jerseys. Theres a shop on Carnaby street, in the London's West End, called We Built this City, was in there in couple of days ago and saw these Rugby Jersey prints. £35 each.. sadly you cant purchase online, only instore.. real nice though.
 

 

[marklaspalmas]

In match reports of early Featherstone games (from 1898 onwards) reference is made to the forwards progressing upfield "with a fine dribble". It was the biggest lads who developed this skill for obvious reasons.

[John Rhino]

Something for the fans of history, and old jerseys. Theres a shop on Carnaby street, in the London's West End, called We Built this City, was in there in couple of days ago and saw these Rugby Jersey prints. £35 each.. sadly you cant purchase online, only instore.. real nice though.

Have you seen the ones at Rugby League Cares, www.rugbyleaguecares.org where you can buy the real thing. (Or could, I bought the last of one design)

And they do a fantastic England first test v NZ replica.

[EastLondonMike]

No haven't seen them.. got any links?..

 

Heres a better link to the print i posted.. which you can actually see.

 

[John Rhino]

No haven't seen them.. got any links?..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Try this, as above but can't post links from a phone. http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org

[Lobbygobbler]

No haven't seen them.. got any links?..

Heres a better link to the print i posted.. which you can actually see.

Thanks for the heads up. Was round the corner from there earlier today but back in town tomorrow. Might check it out before going out

[Padge]

Interesting game

 

[longboard]

Interesting game

 

 

I remember it well.

 

Tony Johnson, Huddersfield's black loose forward who was targeted by some of the Wigan players in that game, got a fair bit of stick in his playing career. He also got a lot of stick in his career as a police officer at a time when black police officers were few in number. I can't remember the book in which it is recorded, but there is a quotation from him along the lines of experiencing "good natured violence" in his time as a player. He is a real gent and I think he is still involved in the Huddersfield RL Past Players Association.

[Phil]

I remember it well.

Tony Johnson, Huddersfield's black loose forward who was targeted by some of the Wigan players in that game, got a fair bit of stick in his playing career. He also got a lot of stick in his career as a police officer at a time when black police officers were few in number. I can't remember the book in which it is recorded, but there is a quotation from him along the lines of experiencing "good natured violence" in his time as a player. He is a real gent and I think he is still involved in the Huddersfield RL Past Players Association.

Looking at that now it's really disgusting, Johnson was obviously being targeted for being black

[Padge]

Looking at that now it's really disgusting, Johnson was obviously being targeted for being black

 

Coppers weren't exactly flavour of the month.

[Number 16]

Here are a couple of links that some of you may find interesting.

 

The first is to the British Newspaper Archive, which is expanding and adding more titles every month. There's plenty of papers available on-line from RL's heartland. The downside to this site is that it costs about a tenner a month to access, though you do get a few freebie searches first. It's worth the money, IMO.

 

http://britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

 

The second is link to a wiki page that lists archives worldwide, with many in League-playing nations. Many of the sites are free to access.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_online_newspaper_archives

 

Happy hunting!

[Futtocks]

This link just popped up on Twitter: Stan Carpenter, RL player and war hero.

[Futtocks]

Just a CC Final instead of a major history-changing event, but what strikes me is the stunningly clear picture quality from film stock over half a century old. It even had a fast enough frame-rate for the slo-mo shots to look smooth. Maybe Pathé did some retouching/restoration, but still...

 

 

[Ullman]

My dad once told me a story, from some considerable years back, about a Hull FC player who'd apparently committed some sort of crime in the days before a fixture at the Boulevard.

 

This player was a first teamer and played in the game on the following weekend.

 

Seems the Police turned up to arrest him shortly after the game started but, obviously, elected to wait until half time before carting him off to the cells.

 

The player concerned got wind of this and spent the half time sat on the centre spot whilst everybody else departed for the changing rooms for their break.

 

The Police, rather than risk being lynched by the home crowd, opted to wait until full time to carry out their arrest.

 

I've no idea whether or not this is a true story or not but it was one of several my late dad used to entertain me with about the history of Hull FC.

 

Once Ullman returns from his dual wedding trip to Australia, I'll ask him if he's heard of any stories with a similar ring to it.

I'm guessing the rozzers don' t read this or they'd probaby have been waiting for me when I got back.

 

I've not heard that particular story but I do remember a player being arrested after a game at the Boulevard. It was one of the first Hull V Leeds games I ever saw. It was back in the late 60s and it ended 9-8 to the visitors. The home fans had worked themselves up into a frenzy at the referee's performance and there was a mass pitch invasion at the final whistle. Somebody grabbed a plastic bucket from the bench and tried to clobber the ref with it. Fights were breaking out all over the pitch and one young bloke squared up to the ex-Hull player Dick Gemmell who was playing for Leeds that day. Gemmell swung a punch, the young bloke ducked and Gemmell connected square on the chops of an old bloke who had been standing just behind. The old bloke complained to the police and Gemmell was arrested, charged and fined.