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Bedford Roughyed

The great EU Referendum poll (new question in poll!)

EU Referendum  

149 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

    • Remain a member of the European Union
      72
    • Leave the European Union
      66
    • Don't know?
      11
  2. 2. With two weeks to go, has your vote changed?

    • Yes, I was remain, now leave
      0
    • Yes, I was leave, now remain
      1
    • Yes, I was don't know, now leave
      1
    • Yes, I was don't know, now remain
      3
    • No, but I'm holding on reluctantly to leave
      0
    • No, but I'm holding on reluctantly to stay
      5
    • No, my intention is the same
      18


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Another ludicrous claim by the remain side: Alan Johnson reckons the UK will have a 'black mark' put against it when international sporting events are handed out, like the Olympics and World Cup, if people vote Brexit.  Well obviously those two Olympics we held before the EU was even imagined don't count as international events, not to mention all the other international sporting events we held prior to 1993.  And people fall for this kind of garbage.  Dear me.

 

I very much doubt it.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Whichever way the vote goes, the political fallout will be the most interesting element of it all.

I can't remember who said it on here about Cameron's biggest task will be controlling the Euro-sceptics, but they appear to have been not far off.

An immediate cabinet reshuffle after the referendum?

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[1] People want to leave for various reasons but the biggest one is that they don't want what the EU offers anymore. When people rebel against something, they will do so for many reasons but they will all have the belief that the absence of what they are rebelling against will be better than the status quo. [2] The leave campaign and those who are onside with it have all made extremely good points about why leaving the EU would be good but those who don't want like yourself simply aren't listening because those people, like yourself, don't want to leave.

The remain side has always had an advantage in that the government opted to support that side. Therefore, the remain side has always had the big guns to roll out in their favour but when you look at what those big guns have been saying there is no more 'evidence' or 'proof' that remaining will be positive or leaving negative because either they have expressed opinions - often from a basis of self-interest (like the luvvies last week) – [3] or they have used modelling based upon supposition (since we have never left the EU before and therefore nobody has accurate data upon which to build anything like reliable models), or they have simply gone the Direct Fear route by claiming the world will end. It's all very manipulative and largely deceitful and in any other context would be nailed as such.

[4] I have learned something about my culture in these last weeks: it is largely infantile. [5] There is a pervasive element too afraid to consider change or risk even when many either openly dislike or fundamentally distrust the very bureaucratic monolith they are now hugging as if it were a special friend.

Should we vote to remain in the EU on 23 June, I anticipate regret from many remainers within a relatively short space of time.

[1] All well and good, but if we are leaving something the fact that we are aiming to arrive somewhere else is implicit. The problem I have is that the leave side won’t, or (even more worryingly, because they don’t know) can’t tell us where this is.

[2] As far as I’m concerned they haven’t. They have manufactured stories of how things might be if we stay, using worst case scenarios. They have also blatantly lied on almost every occasion when it has been brought up about our cost of EU membership and have been admonished at least twice by the NAO about the use of the £350m per week number. If they can’t get that one basic verifiable fact right, why should I be expected to listen to anything else they have to say?

[3] No supposition is needed; we know what membership of the EU looks like, we live with it every day. Things may or may not change in the future and both sides are guilty of trying to predict some sort of bleak outcome if the other side come out on top. The basic fact remains however that nothing that happens in the future regarding the governance of the EU can happen without the UK’s agreement as it would necessitate treaty change, and for that we have complete power of veto. That said, if I were running the remain campaign I would restrict my argument to the here and now not some future maybe/never scenario as it is impossible to argue against the here and now.

[4] I totally agree.

[5] It’s not change I fear, but unplanned change which lacks clear focus and a well-defined objective. Throughout the campaign the brexiteers have not been able to convince each other what out will look like never mid present a cohesive argument to the rest of us. Without a clear, well defined objective major change like this is doomed to failure (ask anyone on here who has ever been involved in a large project). You only have to look at the numerous failed large government IT projects for the evidence, and they are triflingly small in comparison. Negotiation is also impossible without a clearly defined objective. Even when you know what is wanted, negotiations can last for years (for evidence see Canada where it could be argued the negotiation is more straight forward given that they were starting from scratch and not from where we are). Demergers are inherently problematic, even in relatively modest sized organisations separation into smaller entities can take years of planning and execution. Our economy is fragile enough without the extra strain of a protracted negotiation period and planned separation. The entire process could easily take a decade (again, the Brexiteers have failed to produce evidence to the contrary). None of this is “project fear” speak, but based on what we know about similar scenarios in the world of business.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Another ludicrous claim by the remain side: Alan Johnson reckons the UK will have a 'black mark' put against it when international sporting events are handed out, like the Olympics and World Cup, if people vote Brexit.  Well obviously those two Olympics we held before the EU was even imagined don't count as international events, not to mention all the other international sporting events we held prior to 1993.  And people fall for this kind of garbage.  Dear me.

Have you ever heard the French expression "pour encourager les autres?"  The EU will not make it easy for a newly Brexited UK for that reason alone if not for many others.   The Brexit lot are saying that the £350m pw (a lie of course) saved could be spent on the NHS, given the track record of those behind the Brexit campaign (Nigel Lawson!)  any savings will go straight to tax cuts for the better off!


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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Have you ever heard the French expression "pour encourager les autres?" The EU will not make it easy for a newly Brexited UK for that reason alone if not for many others. The Brexit lot are saying that the £350m pw (a lie of course) saved could be spent on the NHS, given the track record of those behind the Brexit campaign (Nigel Lawson!) any savings will go straight to tax cuts for the better off!

The Spanish made it abundantly clear they'd veto Scotland coming into the EU if they won independence to stop their own dissident parts from doing the same. Nothing to do with disliking Scotland and more to do with protecting their own interests. France, Germany and others will take every excuse to stiff Britain over if we leave to further their own interests, our much vaunted service industry will be the prime target.

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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...France, Germany and others will take every excuse to stiff Britain over if we leave to further their own interests, our much vaunted service industry will be the prime target.

 

 

Indeed, most specifically financial services. Frankfurt is well placed to take business off London along with Dublin's burgeoning financial sector and plenty outside Europe.  You'd have to ask yourself what a contraction of financial services, and a likely retreat and retrenchment into London, would do for a city like Leeds.

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Indeed, most specifically financial services. Frankfurt is well placed to take business off London along with Dublin's burgeoning financial sector and plenty outside Europe.  You'd have to ask yourself what a contraction of financial services, and a likely retreat and retrenchment into London, would do for a city like Leeds.

True enough.  Leeds is the UK's second financial centre.  If financial services disappeared to Frankfurt, there'd be a knock on effect for Leeds


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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I know this guy is probably very committed to the cause, but... mixed messages?

 

Cjr5y84WUAA5dJg.jpg


Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. (Susan Ertz)

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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/7184654/Boris-Johnson-promises-cheaper-household-gas-bills-if-Brits-back-Brexit.html

 

The attack once more positions the bitter EU Referendum campaign as a row between working-class Brexiteers and pro-EU supporters in the establishment.

 

 

 

Thats Gove and Johnson as the working class brexiteers....

 

As for the unfair and damaging VAT on energy - 'The Tories introduced VAT on energy bills in 1993...'


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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If I'm in any way unsure about something political, I have certain methods I use for deciding where I stand on issues. These methods rarely fail me.  One method is if the Sun and the Mail are for it I'm against it. (and vice versa)


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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http://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-31/goves-and-johnsons-manifesto-for-a-post-brexit-government/

 

They write in the Sun that "when we vote Leave, we will be able to scrap this unfair and damaging" VAT on energy bills. 

But hang on a moment. VAT on our energy would not automatically disappear if we left the EU. 

A chancellor and prime minister would have to decide to scrap the levy in a budget. However, the last time I looked neither Johnson or Gove occupy 10 or 11 Downing Street.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Gove was asked about the people smuggling incidents in the channel at the weekend.  He waffled on about being in control of our borders after brexit.  Hang on?  The EU has nothing to do with the number of Coastguard cutters or border force patrols, thats down to the government of the day.  Austerity has a much bigger effect on our borders.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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If we leave the EU, will our radar suddenly be able to detect tiny rubber dinghies in a way that it can't currently do?

These people traffickers are hardly likely to try to land in even the smallest harbour when they can land on many of the isolated beaches on the south coast.

Gove also had no answer to the question about the 150k non EU immigrants, too.

Well, this is how we control our borders at present. Is that set to change?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/australian-family-threatened-with-deportation-from-scotland-win-reprieve-a7056956.html


Four legs good - two legs bad

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CjxdsRcUoAEv-PM.jpg


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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How very Old Labour. Should someone maybe tell Fox, Gove etc?


Four legs good - two legs bad

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CjxdsRcUoAEv-PM.jpg

 

 

And what does that enormous amount of EU money, that's going to boost the budgets of every area of public spending, look like in terms of overall spending? If you squint your eyes and look really closely, you can see it at around 12 o'clock.

 

Screen-Shot-2014-11-04-at-07.41.00.png

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And what does that enormous amount of EU money, that's going to boost the budgets of every area of public spending, look like in terms of overall spending? If you squint your eyes and look really closely, you can see it at around 12 o'clock.

 

 

 

 

I think its a lot of money but I don't see it as a waste.  The economy benefits from the free trade by more than £10b? 


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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In any case, if we leave, our own admin costs will rise considerably as we will have to take on a range of activities currently carried out by the EU. We'll still have to meet standards, compliances etc if we are to continue to trade with the EU.

 

In terms of trade deals, the French managed to sell a load of Mirages to India in competition with the Eurofighter Typhoon, individual trade deal with India or not. If we leave , that won't change.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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Were we to vote for exit, what would become of the EU/UK border on the island of Ireland. It would seem incongruous for the 'brexiters' to not want to establish a physically controlled border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland as one of their key arguments is about securing borders. What impact would this have on the economy of Northern Ireland and what destabilising effect would it have on the current Stormont settlement.

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I think its a lot of money but I don't see it as a waste.  The economy benefits from the free trade by more than £10b? 

 

My point is that in the whole scale of things the money we give to the EU is a piddling amount, yet 'brexiters' are wanting us to believe that we can redeploy that money (several times over it would seem) to 'save' the NHS, the welfare state, education at the same time as cutting both direct and indirect taxation. It's like adding a thimbleful to your bath water.

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Were we to vote for exit, what would become of the EU/UK border on the island of Ireland. It would seem incongruous for the 'brexiters' to not want to establish a physically controlled border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland as one of their key arguments is about securing borders. What impact would this have on the economy of Northern Ireland and what destabilising effect would it have on the current Stormont settlement.

Some Irish people are a bit confused...


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

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It's good to see how well he and his family have integrated too.

 

Yes, it warms the cockles does it not.

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