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The Future is League

Red Devils points deduction appeal to be heard by independent body

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Difficult one to answer without knowing the full facts really. Was their deception ? Was it deliberate ? Those sort of aspects have a bearing on sentence.

I don't actually blame Koukash, I reckon your ex-CEO has a lot to answer for during his time at the club as he seems to have totally mismanaged everything with a staggering level of incompetence for someone who held a senior council position for so long. Not just the salary cap issue but everything about the club during his tenure seems to have been completely cocked up.

I would agree Derwent.  I felt standards at the time were very low and lethargic.   Improvement this year without a doubt & Vickers is - as you know - at Swinton & he has taken the Salford email addresses with him which he uses constantly - unsure whether MK gave him permission to do so.

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As ever, the press conference was a bit of a scattergun affair, not helped by the Persicope live feed dropping out every minute or so. He outlined five cases, two of which they were found not guilty of, three of which he didn't mention any further (unless it was while the feed was down) and none of which appeared to be the Jake Mullaney case. However, it was the Jake Mullaney case he concentrated his wrath upon. His argument is either that the RFL didn't deregister him in time or that they allowed Salford to register Kevin Locke without telling him that it took them over the cap (it all seemed to happen during a period of, let's say "CEO difficulties"). It wasn't clear which of these cases he was presenting, because it was during one of the feed's down times. In any event, his argument is that they were only over the cap for about 8 days - the period during which they accidentally had both players registered - and not over it by the amount the RFL claimed (he's arguing that the figures supplied by the RFL are wrong, hence his claim that they are incompetent). If this is true, then 6 points seems draconian to say the least. One of the mitigating factors in para 7.12 of the salary cap regulations is if there could be said to be minimal impact on the competitive balance of the competition. Well, there was no impact on the competitive balance. Jake Mullaney had a season ending injury (hence the decision to deregister him), so it's not as if they had two players competing for a first team place.

 

He also added into the mix the argument that the RFL knew about all of these alleged indiscretions in 2014/15, so why have they decided to do something about it now? The cap is supposed to be 'live'. Now, you could argue (and I'm sure someone on here will) that he just might have given them cause to be a bit miffed at him. If he has, and this is their response, then they're no better than he is.

 

So, there you have it. That seems to be what it's all about. As always with Marwan, it's best to wait and see what happens. For some reason, people tend not to do that.

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Even so do the members of the Total RL Jury truly believe that t is right & just to deduct 6 points from Salford`s 2016 performance in respect of `mismanagemet` in 2014?

The 2 year absence for me should have been penalized in a different way. If `Guily` Maybe a hefty fine to be shared equally by all Championship 1 clubs would have been far more sensible

I think that all points deductions for Salary Cap breaches, both here and in the NRL have been for offences committed in previous years, so if the offence warrants it then yes it is appropriate based on what currently happens and has happened historically.

Your suggestion doesnt quite work for me as a deterrent. Any breach can be seen as a cheat of the comp so it is appropriate that a competition punishment is forthcoming imho. Your suggestion, whilst interesting could just be seen as a levy, and would not act as a deterrent at all for a rich bloke prepared to tgrow a fair few quid at it.

Maybe loss of central money for the years of breaches would be enough? Not sure.

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I don't understand why for the appeal to be upheld would automatically mean the RFL is incompetent. If you are convicted in a court of law and then successfully appeal, it doesn't follow that the judge at your original trial and/or the jury and/or the whole criminal justice system was incompetent. It is commonplace in civilised societies to allow a degree of second-opinion-taking, which is surely what an appeal process is.

It is commendable to go outside the RFL 'establishment' for this service. Some posters above are asking where does a successful appeal leave the RFL. Given the 'neutrality' which has now been brought into the process by Sports' Resolutions' appointment, if the appeal fails, then one would have to ask where that leaves Dr Koukash!

I dont think it does. It does give ammo to Koukash's claims though that the RFL are not fit to police this though, rightly or wrongly.

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The important bit for me from Red John is this

 

:-

 

`Well, there was no impact on the competitive balance. Jake Mullaney had a season ending injury (hence the decision to deregister him), so it's not as if they had two players competing for a first team place.`

 

To me it shows mismanagement rather than deception.   Vickers seems to have dropped a mathematical clanger amid the mountain of creditors invoices on his desk at that time.  

 

Again I come back to the point - Is it fair to penalise a totally different Salford club in 2016 for `problems` in 2014 - 2015 would have been right NOT 2016.

Edited by Segovia Carpet

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The important bit for me from Red John is this

:-

`Well, there was no impact on the competitive balance. Jake Mullaney had a season ending injury (hence the decision to deregister him), so it's not as if they had two players competing for a first team place.`

To me it shows mismanagement rather than deception. Vickers seems to have dropped a mathematical clanger amid the mountain of creditors invoices on his desk at that time.

Again I come back to the point - Is it fair to penalise a totally different Salford club in 2016 for `problems` in 2014.

yes. It isnt a different club.

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I dont think it does. It does give ammo to Koukash's claims though that the RFL are not fit to police this though, rightly or wrongly.

It comes back to the lack of money in the game though. I think when they last advertised the role of salary cap manager it had a salary of about £30k. With the best will in the world you aren't going to get top people for that. It requires a forensic accountant, and you won't get one of those for much less than £70k a year.


I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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He also added into the mix the argument that the RFL knew about all of these alleged indiscretions in 2014/15, so why have they decided to do something about it now? The cap is supposed to be 'live'. 

 

   This is the same RFL that didn't,seemingly,monitor the hurtling into administration actions at Bradford Bulls.In a small timeframe Bradford were granted a licence for Super League - then the purchase of 'iconic' Odsal - http://www.pinsentmasons.com/en/media/published-articles/landmark-deal-secures-future-of-odsal-rugby-league-stadium/

 

  then administration.From the top to the bottom the RFL appear to be negligent and 'not fit for purpose.


     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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It comes back to the lack of money in the game though. I think when they last advertised the role of salary cap manager it had a salary of about £30k. With the best will in the world you aren't going to get top people for that. It requires a forensic accountant, and you won't get one of those for much less than £70k a year.

yup. Lets be honest it relies on goodwill and honesty and an rfl administrator to do the paperwork.

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I initially welcome Marwan with much anticipation, but the reality is 4 years in all he's done is whine a lot & claim to be buying anything that isn't nailed down, including Bradford, an NRL club, a marquee player and bizarrely Union players but has delivered not a lot. Salford are better this year than the previous 3, but let's face it, they'd be hard pressed to be worse. As attractive as they are this year, they're nowhere near a Grand Final or Challenge cup and won't be for a few years yet and Marwan seems set on trying to "buy" a trophy.

 

If the initial punishment is upheld, what next for Marwan? Will he take his toys away with him and leave the club that "he loves" in the lurch, citing the unfairness of everything being biased against him? It seems from the end of the linked article that he's not had the deluge of support that he was expecting in regards to a vote of no confidence, so it looks like that has no legs so no change....or nothing like that which he wanted. 

 

Alternatively, if his appeal is successful, does that open the door to anarchy in the sport? If the top 12 Clubs in the Northern Hemisphere are 
let off the leash" so to speak, will that be good for the rest of the sport? 5 or 6 clubs buying the talent and the rest of us left to plod along? The current TV deal will stand as it was the chairmen who accepted it, so a few bob more for the 12, less for the rest and then what......do Leigh, London, Bradford just put up with it?

 

Sorry, but personally I hope the decision is upheld and they hit him with an extra 4 points to start off in the 8's.....yes, it's unfair on this years side, but the mistakes/errors/breaches were made by His Club and they have to be dealt with now. I also hope that the RFL ask SL for more cash to pay someone suitable qualified to manage the cap....I can't believe I've just read on here the person overseeing it is only on 30k a year.....that's sheer lunacy! 

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Even so do the members of the Total RL Jury truly believe that t is right & just to deduct 6 points from Salford`s 2016 performance in respect of `mismanagemet` in 2014?

 

The 2 year absence for me should have been penalized in a different way. If `Guily` Maybe a hefty fine to be shared equally by all Championship 1 clubs would have been far more sensible

I don't and never have like the points punishement for these offences, it punishes the fans far more than guilty parties and of course those who have benefitted/been complicit in additional payments get to keep money they should never have had.

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I don't and never have like the points punishement for these offences, it punishes the fans far more than guilty parties and of course those who have benefitted/been complicit in additional payments get to keep money they should never have had.

If you don't deduct points, what do you suggest? Fine the club, who seemingly don't care about the fiscals in the first place? If Marwan was to pay Inglis a million a year and break the cap by say, 30%, do you think a fine of 100k will bother him?

 

 

As has been said, it's supposedly a "live" cap, so we need professionals to police it, not someone on an office managers wage.

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I initially welcome Marwan with much anticipation, but the reality is 4 years in all he's done is whine a lot & claim to be buying anything that isn't nailed down, including Bradford, an NRL club, a marquee player and bizarrely Union players but has delivered not a lot. Salford are better this year than the previous 3, but let's face it, they'd be hard pressed to be worse. As attractive as they are this year, they're nowhere near a Grand Final or Challenge cup and won't be for a few years yet and Marwan seems set on trying to "buy" a trophy.

 

If the initial punishment is upheld, what next for Marwan? Will he take his toys away with him and leave the club that "he loves" in the lurch, citing the unfairness of everything being biased against him? It seems from the end of the linked article that he's not had the deluge of support that he was expecting in regards to a vote of no confidence, so it looks like that has no legs so no change....or nothing like that which he wanted. 

 

Alternatively, if his appeal is successful, does that open the door to anarchy in the sport? If the top 12 Clubs in the Northern Hemisphere are 

let off the leash" so to speak, will that be good for the rest of the sport? 5 or 6 clubs buying the talent and the rest of us left to plod along? The current TV deal will stand as it was the chairmen who accepted it, so a few bob more for the 12, less for the rest and then what......do Leigh, London, Bradford just put up with it?

 

Sorry, but personally I hope the decision is upheld and they hit him with an extra 4 points to start off in the 8's.....yes, it's unfair on this years side, but the mistakes/errors/breaches were made by His Club and they have to be dealt with now. I also hope that the RFL ask SL for more cash to pay someone suitable qualified to manage the cap....I can't believe I've just read on here the person overseeing it is only on 30k a year.....that's sheer lunacy! 

You hate us with a passion Trailfinder dont you?

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You're a league club of course "he" does. :)

I think it is likely that they will succeed in reducing the penalty, given the professionalism with which he is approaching the debate. Bradford got 6 points for going into administration, so 6 for arguable technicalities looks swingeing. I have high hopes that it will be removed completely as it ridiculously distorts this season.

That being the case then Widnes will be in a worrying place and one of Leeds or the Giants will certainly be in the middle 8s.

It could get a lot spicier yet!

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You hate us with a passion Trailfinder dont you?

I don't hate Salford, or any other club for that matter. I just think that whilst he's very entertaining on Twitter, he's a complete liability to the sport. He's promised the world and delivered 14th of 14, 10th of 14 and 11th of 12 finishes...32 wins from 92 SL Regular season games, delivered 3 x 5th round Cup exits and a 6th round game..... Said he'd break the cap, broke the cap (no matter how long or how much.....he broke it), he's bought no NRL side, his wife made a silly offer for Bradford, he's bough no marquee player in, seen static (at best) attendances even after opening the doors for free, he hasn't "revitalised" Swinton, he's fired more coaches than the London Bus Company own and now he's openly accusing other clubs of cheating.

The only people who've gained (debatable) are Leigh, who've picked up a few players after they've been cast aside. 

 

No, I don't hate Salford.....I don't dislike the good doc either and his pinot noir fuelled tweets are a hoot, but he's not the breath of fresh air he was back in 2013.......

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I feel a bit Mystic Meg today cos I knew how this would go down, new thread old arguments.

 

And yet I am amazed at how much information people have on this subject. I read articles, mostly online, from all sorts of sources, but I have never seen some of the information people on here seem privy to, anywhere.

 

People love the theatre and drama of a story like this and enjoy playing it out on the forum. It's like Game of Thrones, mostly long periods where nothing seems to happen or change, punctuated by gratuitous and bloody violence where all the knives are out! :blackeye:

 

37

Edited by Oxford

"It is, by a million miles, a better sport than union. League is 80 minutes of physicality, speed, good handling, good kicking. It’s continuous."

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1. I feel a bit Mystic Meg today cos I knew how this would go down, new thread old arguments.

 

2. And yet I am amazed at how much information people have on this subject. I read articles, mostly online, from all sorts of sources, but I have never seen some of the information people on here seem privy to, anywhere.

 

3. People love the theatre and drama of a story like this and enjoy playing it out on the forum. It's like Game of Thrones, mostly long periods where nothing seems to happen or change, punctuated by gratuitous and bloody violence where all the knives are out! :blackeye:

 

37

 

1. No arguments here, just debate about what may or may not happen and what the knock-on effects would be. It's the purpose of internet forums I believe.

2. I am grateful to those posters who either watched the press conference or who have researched the background info. Derwents summarisation, if correct, would point to Salford being in the wrong and regardless of intent or error,a breach is a breach.

3. As usual, Marwan expects to win and that is to be admired....our sport needs more winners, but the whole affair invites accusation and counter accusation on an internet forum, which is one of the main purposes of a forum.

 

So my take on this thread and the other one is that the majority of posters seem to be of the belief that this is a great topic and one that will run for a few more weeks before the start of the end of year jamboree that are the middle 8's......and then the 4 Nations and the attendance at Coventry belittled as a disaster.

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"just debate  ........It's the purpose of internet forums I believe." Oh, that's what forums are for! I was wondering.

 

"just debate about what may or may not happen and what the knock-on effects would be"

No, it's much more than that and very  entertaining!


"It is, by a million miles, a better sport than union. League is 80 minutes of physicality, speed, good handling, good kicking. It’s continuous."

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How can you exceed the cap by only 8 days ? either you break it or you don't.

 

Yes you can be £1 over for five minutes or you could sign the Australian National side for your first team and the Kiwi's as your reserve team?

 

I don't understand why for the appeal to be upheld would automatically mean the RFL is incompetent.  If you are convicted in a court of law and then successfully appeal, it doesn't follow that the judge at your original trial and/or the jury and/or the whole criminal justice system was incompetent. 

 

It doesn't in theory, the reality here may or may not be different

 

Curiously enough (Puletua) wasn't mentioned at all, but I did hear they got off with that 

 

I can't remember the fine detail but wasn't there more that one contract for the dummy company i.e one for 2014 and one for 2015. Was there another player cited as having a similar deal? Is conspiracy to defraud not an offence?

 

Even so do the members of the Total RL Jury truly believe that it is right & just to deduct 6 points from Salford`s 2016 performance in respect of `mismanagement` in 2014?

 

Well wait for it, there is an appeal in which that can take the penalty up to 20 points or down to 0 points, the appeal is looking at the "just and right", but for me it smells of playing games.

 

 

He also added into the mix the argument that the RFL knew about all of these alleged indiscretions in 2014/15, so why have they decided to do something about it now? The cap is supposed to be 'live'. Now, you could argue (and I'm sure someone on here will) 

 

Well they did absurdly argue in a matter of fact way that it takes time to investigate such matters (not realising I suppose the sytem was policed in real time). As contracts were signed Early autumn 2013 and the Tribunal may not be over until a couple of months short of three years later it was an absurd argument and as per Sadler the RFL have a case to answer.

 

That they decided to do something now was due to Bradford Bulls Marc Green sustained personal pressure on the RFL to act on the matter. The jury on here did argue in a matter of fact way that Mr. Green was a bit disturbed at the RFL's "real time" procedures being a little tardy. Bulls going down whilst the Devils were allegedly cheating had apparently nothing to do with it.

 

Sorry, but personally I hope the decision is upheld and they hit him with an extra 4 points to start off in the 8's.....

 

Not going to look it all up again but as it stands the likely offences he may be found guilty of after appeal don't warrant such extreme punishment (You forgot to add 20 lashes, followed by Crucifixion)  if there is to be consistency with penalties for past breaches.

 

I suppose the cynic may forecast a reduction to two points for administrative mistakes. 

 

Once the circus leaves town all eyes may be on Mr. Green

Edited by The Parksider

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And yet I am amazed at how much information people have on this subject. I read articles, mostly online, from all sorts of sources, but I have never seen some of the information people on here seem privy to, anywhere.

 

If you had watched the press conference it was all covered there, the press conference was broadcast live in full on Periscope so was available for anyone to watch. Koukash went into a lot of detail about the charges and his defence of them.


I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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"Yes you can be £1 over for five minutes or you could sign the Australian National side for your first team and the Kiwi's as your reserve team?"

 

This "rules are rules" approach is something that almost never applies in TGG and the SC is no exception.Look at the differing disciplinary results for this and try and argue a rule is for everyone all the time.

Being one pound over for 5 minutes could be a mistake or an oversight signing the Oz team would be wonderful, and create a lot of media interest!


"It is, by a million miles, a better sport than union. League is 80 minutes of physicality, speed, good handling, good kicking. It’s continuous."

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If you had watched the press conference it was all covered there, the press conference was broadcast live in full on Periscope so was available for anyone to watch. Koukash went into a lot of detail about the charges and his defence of them.

I'm certain you're right, but I'm not sure why you replied to my post?


"It is, by a million miles, a better sport than union. League is 80 minutes of physicality, speed, good handling, good kicking. It’s continuous."

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I'm certain you're right, but I'm not sure why you replied to my post?

I was simply explaining how people are aware of the fine details of the issue which you said you were amazed about.


I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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"Yes you can be £1 over for five minutes or you could sign the Australian National side for your first team and the Kiwi's as your reserve team?"

This "rules are rules" approach is something that almost never applies in TGG and the SC is no exception.Look at the differing disciplinary results for this and try and argue a rule is for everyone all the time.

Being one pound over for 5 minutes could be a mistake or an oversight signing the Oz team would be wonderful, and create a lot of media interest!

If Salford or any club are/have been deliberately by passing the audit by hiding contracts then for me a points deduction is a minimum punishment.

Edited by bobbruce

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