Jump to content
Total Rugby League Fans Forum
Sign in to follow this  
ckn

Lib Dems

Recommended Posts

OK I don't remember the lib dems making the Greece claim, the conservatives HAD been elected on a platform of austerity, and were the senior party in the coalition. They had to negotiate for what they got. They got some things right and some things wrong. They got some pretty significant wins but people forget about them. It was the first time they were in that position though so it was a learning experience. 

 

Also blaming Clegg for Brexit is a bit rich. The referendum was offered by Cameron to "shoot the UKIP fox", nothing to do with the Lib Dems.

 

Answer me this question though. If you were given just these two options for the current government which would you prefer for being in power :

A conservative majority

A coalition with the conservatives being the major party

 

just those two option

But those weren't the options.  Gordon made them an offer.  And as for people voting for what the Tories stood for, NO ONE, Lib/Dem, Tory or Labour voted for Lansley's plans for the NHS.  Just on this alone Clegg should be shot for what he allowed to happen.

I'm currently in despair politically. We're out of the EU and are going to suffer.  The Tories look likely to elect a Thatcher clone in the shape ofAndrea Leadsom, the Labour party is an absolute shambles with very little chance of ever being elected again.  I'd truly like to think I could trust the Lib/Dems, but I know I can't after what they did in 2010.  They are the monkey who opened the tiger's cage.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But those weren't the options. Gordon made them an offer. And as for people voting for what the Tories stood for, NO ONE, Lib/Dem, Tory or Labour voted for Lansley's plans for the NHS. Just on this alone Clegg should be shot for what he allowed to happen.

I'm currently in despair politically. We're out of the EU and are going to suffer. The Tories look likely to elect a Thatcher clone in the shape ofAndrea Leadsom, the Labour party is an absolute shambles with very little chance of ever being elected again. I'd truly like to think I could trust the Lib/Dems, but I know I can't after what they did in 2010. They are the monkey who opened the tiger's cage.

I know you quoted 1 source who said they could have successfully gone into a rainbow coalition but personally I don't think it would work (and I've not seen another commentator who thinks it would have).

So yes those were the realistic options on the table. Which would you have chosen?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know you quoted 1 source who said they could have successfully gone into a rainbow coalition but personally I don't think it would work (and I've not seen another commentator who thinks it would have).

So yes those were the realistic options on the table. Which would you have chosen?

But it's not a realistic choice.  I'd never choose a Tory government.  I suppose a coalition with the Lib/Dems is preferable, but that's not available ATM.  And to be fair if what the Lib/Dems did to mitigate the Tories between 2010 and 2015 is the best they could do then I don't really see what difference it would make.  Yes they got the higher threshold, but many people in that wage bracket weren't paying tax anyway.  If Clegg etc had had any balls at all he'd have stopped a lot of the nonsense that was allowed to happen under Cameron/Osborne like free schools, and compulsory academies, like the swingeing cuts to local government causing libraries to close.  Like reducing employment protection. like cutting legal aid. I could go on and on.  And what did the Lib/Dems get out of it.  Electoral reform, despite Cameron saying he would be neutral, he mobilised the Tory machine against it.  House of Lords reform, the Tories voted that down as well despite promises to the contrary.  You can't trust the Tories. 

https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/5-days-in-may


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It really does show how far the Lib Dems have fallen that Tim Farron was upset at not getting called at PMQs to say goodbye to the PM and no-one seems to care.


“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" - Mark Twain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few by-election wins in Labour heartlands and another winning a Tory seat in my local council area on Alston Moor recently. Are the Lib Dems on the road to recovery post-referendum?

Edited by GeordieSaint

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few by-election wins in Labour heartlands and another winning a Tory seat in my local council area on Alston Moor recently. Are the Lib Dems on the road to recovery post-referendum?

 

Doesn't look like it! The recent opinion polls show them lower than they were at the last election!

 

Locally I'm sure there will be a recovery but whether that can be transferred to a general election currently looks unlikely. If they had a leader with the charisma of Clegg (pre-government obviously) I could see the making gains but not now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Bob. The tories had a bigger electoral mandate, they were right to go in to coalition with them. Supply and confidence would not have had delivered a stable govt. Just look at this conservative majority govt. Do you think it would be so unstable if they were in coalition. Definitely not!

 

At the end of the day they made mistakes and got an electoral kicking for them, but many of the good things they achieved get overlooked.

 

The LDs made a tactical mistake approaching the 2015 general election by trying to distance themselves from what the coalition government had done and looking as though they were apologising for its shortcomings.

 

That put them on the defensive, and they allowed the Tories to give the impression that everything that government had done was of their making alone.

 

They played into the Tories' hands and reaped their reward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The LDs made a tactical mistake approaching the 2015 general election by trying to distance themselves from what the coalition government had done and looking as though they were apologising for its shortcomings.

 

That put them on the defensive, and they allowed the Tories to give the impression that everything that government had done was of their making alone.

 

They played into the Tories' hands and reaped their reward.

 

can't disagree with any of that! I said earlier in the thread (months ago) that the Lib Dems were highly inexperienced going in to the coalition. I'd expand that to naive going in to the last election.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the the Lib Dems do see a resurgence, (and we very much need them to in order to stop the rot that the tories insist on setting in for the normal working man/women), the media will start to turn on them as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do you hard lefties always blame "the media" for your own shortcomings?   The fact is that  no one actually wants your ill-founded, impractical, unworkable and discredited policies and personalities.

 

statements like "the rot that the tories insist on setting in for the normal working man/women" are just too ridiculous for words and are not supported by the facts, by electorate or by public opinion.

 

Sure, there need to be a strong opposition to ensure that Conservative polices and actions are examined, challenged and if necessary modified, but that opposition has to be based on the actual situation on the ground, not on some imagined declaration of class war.


Four legs good - two legs bad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John, there's a lot of venom and vitriol in politics at the moment. I suspect, though its all anecdotal, that this is due to how the last few campaigns have been waged, creating an "us and them" mentality. You don't need to look to much at both referendum campaigns and the London Mayoral elections to see examples of this.

 

When words like traitor, duplicity et al are used frequently to put fear in to peoples mind, its this sort of atmosphere, I think, which lead to an MP being shot in the streets.

 

I honestly believe that most, if not all people involved in politics do so to make the world a better place, and I think that belief has been lost by many making people think that the "other" side (be it right or left) are only in it for themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John, there's a lot of venom and vitriol in politics at the moment. I suspect, though its all anecdotal, that this is due to how the last few campaigns have been waged, creating an "us and them" mentality. You don't need to look to much at both referendum campaigns and the London Mayoral elections to see examples of this.

 

When words like traitor, duplicity et al are used frequently to put fear in to peoples mind, its this sort of atmosphere, I think, which lead to an MP being shot in the streets.

 

I honestly believe that most, if not all people involved in politics do so to make the world a better place, and I think that belief has been lost by many making people think that the "other" side (be it right or left) are only in it for themselves.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this.


.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the the Lib Dems do see a resurgence, (and we very much need them to in order to stop the rot that the tories insist on setting in for the normal working man/women), the media will start to turn on them as well.

As the majority of the country is made up of "normal working men and women" a fair few of them must vote for the Tories for them to win an election. Why would they do that if the Tories want the working man to rot?

By the way is there such a thing as an abnormal working man or woman?

Edited by Wiltshire Rhino

2014 Challenged Cup Winner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As the majority of the country is made up of "normal working men and women" a fair few of them must vote for the Tories for them to win an election. Why would they do that if the Tories want the working man to rot?

By the way is there such a thing as an abnormal working man or woman?

Because they don't say that.  The Tories are all about divide and rule especially where the "working classes" are concerned.  "Why should someone on benefits get the same as someone who's working?" is how they phrase it, to justify cuts,  when what people should be thinking is "why aren't wages higher"  They've done it throughout my lifetime and they get away with it because it works, keeping just enough people happy by persecuting the minority.  Until things go wrong and then they're kicked out for a bit, but they always get back because of this and other policies, like the law and order scam.  This forced the last Labour government to bring in ever more draconian laws trying to out Tory the Tories.  The Lib/Dems went into the 2010 election with policies opposed to Labour's repressive laws, and ended up getting into bed with their ultimate begetter..  I've been reading Bob Marshall-Andrews's book "Off Message" a real eye opener to the behind the scenes antics between 1997 and 2010.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they don't say that.  The Tories are all about divide and rule especially where the "working classes" are concerned.  "Why should someone on benefits get the same as someone who's working?" is how they phrase it, to justify cuts.

 

Back in 1982 we had a Russian friend of ours who was staying with us in Wakefield.

 

She was a dedicated member of the Soviet Communist Party (which is why she could travel abroad), and her main condemnation of capitalist society, and the thing that proved to her how degenerate capitalism was, was that we paid people who were unemployed.

 

She contended that no socialist society would countenance such a thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they don't say that.  The Tories are all about divide and rule especially where the "working classes" are concerned.  "Why should someone on benefits get the same as someone who's working?" is how they phrase it, to justify cuts,  when what people should be thinking is "why aren't wages higher"  They've done it throughout my lifetime and they get away with it because it works, keeping just enough people happy by persecuting the minority.  Until things go wrong and then they're kicked out for a bit, but they always get back because of this and other policies, like the law and order scam.  This forced the last Labour government to bring in ever more draconian laws trying to out Tory the Tories.  The Lib/Dems went into the 2010 election with policies opposed to Labour's repressive laws, and ended up getting into bed with their ultimate begetter..  I've been reading Bob Marshall-Andrews's book "Off Message" a real eye opener to the behind the scenes antics between 1997 and 2010.

Oh dear. You do really believe this, don't you, even though you are just one of a tiny and shrinking minoity. As we know from religion, people believe whatever fantasy they want, in spite of the facts and in spite of the evidence.


Four legs good - two legs bad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back in 1982 we had a Russian friend of ours who was staying with us in Wakefield.

 

She was a dedicated member of the Soviet Communist Party (which is why she could travel abroad), and her main condemnation of capitalist society, and the thing that proved to her how degenerate capitalism was, was that we paid people who were unemployed.

 

She contended that no socialist society would countenance such a thing.

 

Their solution was to provide "non-jobs" just to prove nobody was unemployed.

 

If you put 4 people in public sector jobs where 1 would do you'd wipe out unemployment overnight, but you'd either have to hike up taxes or effectively reduce the minimum wage to the same or less than as unemployment benefit.

 

Soviet Russia truly was a worker's paradise....


"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Their solution was to provide "non-jobs" just to prove nobody was unemployed.

 

If you put 4 people in public sector jobs where 1 would do you'd wipe out unemployment overnight, but you'd either have to hike up taxes or effectively reduce the minimum wage to the same or less than as unemployment benefit.

 

Soviet Russia truly was a worker's paradise....

 

in the Soviet Union there was no such thing as unemployment benefit, or at least that's what we were told.

 

And workers had absolutely no rights whatsoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

in the Soviet Union there was no such thing as unemployment benefit, or at least that's what we were told.

And workers had absolutely no rights whatsoever.

Correct, which is why their claim of "socialism" is as valid as the tories claim to "freedom"


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh dear. You do really believe this, don't you, even though you are just one of a tiny and shrinking minoity. As we know from religion, people believe whatever fantasy they want, in spite of the facts and in spite of the evidence.

Of course I believe it. I've lived it.  It's what the Tories have done for over a century.  It's what caused all the trouble NI.  Churchill's father Randolph dreamed it  up.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if anyone else listens to Absolute Radio in the mornings but at the moment they are having competition (?) where celebrities call in randomly to try and win £10k for charity. Yesterday Nick Clegg called in for the Sheffield Children's Hospital, and I thought, unsolicited, and unprepared for it was quite a good interview. If you've got 10 mins its an interesting listen.

 

http://absoluteradio.co.uk/competitions/whos-calling-christian/index.html

 

Obviously its not going to change anyone's mind about him, but interesting none the less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct, which is why their claim of "socialism" is as valid as the tories claim to "freedom"

So they ARE socialists after all.


Four legs good - two legs bad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So they ARE socialists after all.

Nope


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cz3jXdcW8AE1dAn.jpg


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The recent, almost unprecedented, string of council by-election gains are heartening for Lib Dems but it's hard to be sure why they are happening. Certainly Lib Dem members (and presumably regular voters) are highly motivated at the moment given the huge and deeply troubling threats to liberal democracy that the past year has seen. And in such low turnout elections as these voter enthusiasm is key. Likewise large numbers of members are getting out on the ground ensuring likely voters come out. Whilst that can be scaled up for one-off Parliamentary elections like Richmond Park, it is much more difficult in a General Election setting.

 

In national polling the Lib Dem rebound is not really being seen that much - although a recent poll put the party on 14% they typically remain around 9%-11%, only marginally up from 2015's disastrous 8%. I sense that Farron is still struggling to break through; however there is a political window of opportunity with May struggling with a deeply divided party and nation and Labour a mess. The Lib Dems have scope to try to assemble local majorities against both incumbent Labour and Tories at the next election - expect plenty of "can't win here" literature showing (sometimes inaccurately) how the Lib Dems are the only challengers to the sitting MP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...