A question of race or marginalisation

[Robin Evans]

A few years ago when I still worked the wards, one handover between shifts an incident of racial abuse was reported on a forensic unit.

My then manager advised the trust has a zero tolerance of racial abuse and it must be dealt with according to trust policy immediately... a member of staff was called a black so n so.

The following day a patient called me a ginger so n so.... same derogatory comment. Same manager found that a source of hilarity.

Given that race is being discussed as a precipitaring factor of Brexit... and it's covered widely in the news... what is the difference? How is one term of abuse regarded as significantly more tolerable ...morally socially and legally?

Don't get me wrong. Those who know me know I'm not precious and I'm never going to be troubled by such comment in a similar fashion to how my mate felt about being called a black so n so.

Abuse is abuse. Both can be serious. Both can have tragic consequences. I just don't get it

[Martyn Sadler]

A few years ago when I still worked the wards, one handover between shifts an incident of racial abuse was reported on a forensic unit.

My then manager advised the trust has a zero tolerance of racial abuse and it must be dealt with according to trust policy immediately... a member of staff was called a black so n so.

The following day a patient called me a ginger so n so.... same derogatory comment. Same manager found that a source of hilarity.

Given that race is being discussed as a precipitaring factor of Brexit... and it's covered widely in the news... what is the difference? How is one term of abuse regarded as significantly more tolerable ...morally socially and legally?

Don't get me wrong. Those who know me know I'm not precious and I'm never going to be troubled by such comment in a similar fashion to how my mate felt about being called a black so n so.

Abuse is abuse. Both can be serious. Both can have tragic consequences. I just don't get it

 

A few years ago I underwent a minor operation carried out by a surgeon of Pakistani origin.

 

He was a lovely guy, and I had a very interesting conversation with him about racism, and in particular the use of the P-word and how he reacted to it if and when he ever experienced it.

 

In one sense he was quite indignant about the idea that the P-word could be seen as a term of insult.

 

The word 'Pak', he explained, means 'pure' in Urdu, so Pakistan literally means 'Land of the Pure'.

 

He made the point that if you call someone a 'Brit', it isn't seen as an insult, so why should the equivalent be seen as such?

 

But he also said that if someone uses the P-word in a way that is deliberately designed to insult, then it is a form of abuse.

 

Whether it is racism depends on the intention of the perpetrator of the abuse.

 

So if someone takes the micky out of you for being red-headed, I can imagine it may be tedious for you, particularly when people think they're being funny when they aren't, but if their intention isn't to abuse you, you can either tolerate them or educate them, but not threaten them, either with the law or physically.

[Phil]

According to ACAS guidelines if you feel you are being bullied intimidated or threatened then you are. It's all down to how the victim perceives it.

[Maximus Decimus]

A few years ago I underwent a minor operation carried out by a surgeon of Pakistani origin.

He was a lovely guy, and I had a very interesting conversation with him about racism, and in particular the use of the P-word and how he reacted to it if and when he ever experienced it.

In one sense he was quite indignant about the idea that the P-word could be seen as a term of insult.

The word 'Pak', he explained, means 'pure' in Urdu, so Pakistan literally means 'Land of the Pure'.

He made the point that if you call someone a 'Brit', it isn't seen as an insult, so why should the equivalent be seen as such?

But he also said that if someone uses the P-word in a way that is deliberately designed to insult, then it is a form of abuse.

Whether it is racism depends on the intention of the perpetrator of the abuse.

So if someone takes the micky out of you for being red-headed, I can imagine it may be tedious for you, particularly when people think they're being funny when they aren't, but if their intention isn't to abuse you, you can either tolerate them or educate them, but not threaten them, either with the law or physically.

Nobody using the P word means it in a pure way.

Also 'Brit' has been used in a derogatory sense, in Northern Ireland for instance.

[ckn]

A few years ago I underwent a minor operation carried out by a surgeon of Pakistani origin.

 

He was a lovely guy, and I had a very interesting conversation with him about racism, and in particular the use of the P-word and how he reacted to it if and when he ever experienced it.

 

In one sense he was quite indignant about the idea that the P-word could be seen as a term of insult.

 

The word 'Pak', he explained, means 'pure' in Urdu, so Pakistan literally means 'Land of the Pure'.

 

He made the point that if you call someone a 'Brit', it isn't seen as an insult, so why should the equivalent be seen as such?

 

But he also said that if someone uses the P-word in a way that is deliberately designed to insult, then it is a form of abuse.

 

Whether it is racism depends on the intention of the perpetrator of the abuse.

 

So if someone takes the micky out of you for being red-headed, I can imagine it may be tedious for you, particularly when people think they're being funny when they aren't, but if their intention isn't to abuse you, you can either tolerate them or educate them, but not threaten them, either with the law or physically.

I can see your views, I really can but, using Robin's example, there have been far too many people who have committed suicide or driven to serious self-harm due to bullying over the simple issue that they were born with red head.  Someone in a vulnerable position having had years of this stuff may just need one single "harmless" joke for it to be the final straw.

 

It's simple, if you know that people have used a term in a way to harass or bully someone then just don't joke about it.

 

One guy I worked with for years in the army was a huge black man, absolutely massive in muscular size.  When he joined the regiment he was the subject of some nasty racist bullying until he repeatedly put a few of them into hospital, it stopped then.  Being the army though, senses of humour can be very harsh to a point that Frankie Boyle would think they were going too far, so he still was the butt of what people thought was light-hearted humour, everything from him being asked if the Q stores had finally got gorilla sized uniforms to how he didn't need to spend army money on camouflage cream.  I met him years later and we spent a few hours catching up over beers and he admitted that he had years of counselling when he left the army over it because every single time it hurt him but he felt he couldn't say anything because it might hurt his army career.  When I was younger, the thought really didn't occur to me that what I treated as banter was actually hurting someone I liked; it was probably this that helped sort my attitude on the issue more than anything else, if this big huge tough guy who really was one of the toughest, strongest and most resilient people I knew ended up in therapy because of it then how did it affect others?

[Martyn Sadler]

I can see your views, I really can but, using Robin's example, there have been far too many people who have committed suicide or driven to serious self-harm due to bullying over the simple issue that they were born with red head.  Someone in a vulnerable position having had years of this stuff may just need one single "harmless" joke for it to be the final straw.

 

It's simple, if you know that people have used a term in a way to harass or bully someone then just don't joke about it.

 

One guy I worked with for years in the army was a huge black man, absolutely massive in muscular size.  When he joined the regiment he was the subject of some nasty racist bullying until he repeatedly put a few of them into hospital, it stopped then.  Being the army though, senses of humour can be very harsh to a point that Frankie Boyle would think they were going too far, so he still was the butt of what people thought was light-hearted humour, everything from him being asked if the Q stores had finally got gorilla sized uniforms to how he didn't need to spend army money on camouflage cream.  I met him years later and we spent a few hours catching up over beers and he admitted that he had years of counselling when he left the army over it because every single time it hurt him but he felt he couldn't say anything because it might hurt his army career.  When I was younger, the thought really didn't occur to me that what I treated as banter was actually hurting someone I liked; it was probably this that helped sort my attitude on the issue more than anything else, if this big huge tough guy who really was one of the toughest, strongest and most resilient people I knew ended up in therapy because of it then how did it affect others?

 

I can see the point you're making, and you're right to say that some people bite their tongues rather than reacting to every comment that is directed their way. I can understand how that might affect someone's mental state.

 

The trouble is that all the little incidents in themselves were probably not abusive, but their cumulated effect was to make your colleague feel unhappy.

 

I'm just not sure you can legislate for that.

 

What's important is for people to respect each other and to be sensitive about what may or may not cause offence.

[Martyn Sadler]

Nobody using the P word means it in a pure way.

 

Your comment sums up the problem that my surgeon felt.

 

Here was a word that he feels is beautiful, and yet the rest of the world has decided it's a term of insult and won't let go of it.

 

He would like to claim the word back, in the same way as the gay community has reclaimed some words that were regarded as insulting and still are by some people.

[Robin Evans]

Indeed.

What kind of troubled me was not just the the acceptance of being abused because of my hair, but almost encouragement of it by buying into the "hilarity" of it whist engaging in the condemnation of racist abuse aimed at a colleague...

Why are they different?

[Robin Evans]

Your comment sums up the problem that my surgeon felt.

Here was a word that he feels is beautiful, and yet the rest of the world has decided it's a term of insult and won't let go of it.

He would like to claim the word back, in the same way as the gay community has reclaimed some words that were regarded as insulting and still are by some people.

my mates team played up at a Leeds rl club last season. Over half the team were black and calling each other the anagram of ginger....

Mate said "if we called em that we'd by on t'front page of the daily mirror"!

Well yes you would, and that comes down to how it's perceived by the individual....

[Trojan]

my mates team played up at a Leeds rl club last season. Over half the team were black and calling each other the anagram of ginger....

Mate said "if we called em that we'd by on t'front page of the daily mirror"!

Well yes you would, and that comes down to how it's perceived by the individual....

Exactly, if the person you are calling the name doesn't like the name then it's abuse.  I have to confess to having "ginners" in my family.  We are 50/50 roughly.(I'm not one)  My grandma still had traces of ginger in her hair when she died at 86.

[Tommygilf]

As a fellow ginger I think it comes down to whether or not I've been discriminated against specifically because I'm ginger (as has happened to Black or Gay people). By this definition then no its not racist.

However, calling someone a ginger so and so or referring to their hair colour in a derogatory fashion is no different to calling a black person a n***** or a gay person a gay so and so. Its picking on someone for something which they themselves do not choose. In this sense then is this racism?

[Sam Armstrong]

I have often thought about the comparisons and, with the exception where someone is clearly meaning to cause offence it is invariably the actual manner in which it is delivered that causes the offence.

Referring back to the original poster, they mentioned that the words "black" and "ginger" were interpreted differently and subsequently treated as such.

Could both those terms, along with (content deleted by CKN) to name but a few (please understand that no offence was meant by using these two particular examples with the others as neither was deemed particularly offensive when some of us, now more enlightened people, were growing up) simply just be the very first distinguishing descriptor of a simple mind and not specifically be the part of the phrase meant as offensive ie "... that xxxx so & so" or that xxxx ****"? All are summing someone as a "so & so" or "****" it is, to me, that part which offends .... and yes, I get the "fat" one regularly but acknowledge that I am indeed bigger than the average guy so don't take too much offence.

[Bob8]

Your comment sums up the problem that my surgeon felt.

 

Here was a word that he feels is beautiful, and yet the rest of the world has decided it's a term of insult and won't let go of it.

 

He would like to claim the word back, in the same way as the gay community has reclaimed some words that were regarded as insulting and still are by some people.

I have had experiences in America of saying things that were racially insensitive through pure naivety  and ignorance.  A particular example was when I described a lady as oriental, which caused her no offense and she spoke up for me when I was criticised for it and made it clear I had done nothing wrong.  However, I was using the term with no derogatory connotation and no thought that it was more offensive than describing me as occidental.  However, there is a terrible history in the USA of oriental being used in a derogatory way and from an American it would be offensive.  Now that I know, I would not use the word in the USA anymore.

 

I have also made a remark to a black man who looked across to a colleague of mine, also black who waved it away saying, "there is not a racist bone in his body".  However, I realized what I said could be offensive, I learned and avoid repeating it. 

 

The thing is, I made these remarks in innocent naivety, which is fine.   However, once informed of the racial connotation it can no longer be innocent and naive.

 

Context is everything.  Trojan above claims he was not being abusive, but giving an opinion, in fact it was both.  If I call someone ugly, it is no use defending myself on the basis that they are objectively ugly.  In the case of gingers, we do not have a history of ginger people suffering systematic discrimination (aside from boring jokes). 

 

We do not have reason to suspect that there is a small, but significant minority who regard them as lesser people.  To make it clear that is not OK, straight people should avoid calling gay men puffs, and white people should avoid calling black people an anagram of ginger.  Unfortunately, if I call that surgeon a "####" it can be reasonably assumed by people around that I think racial abuse is OK. 

[ckn]

I have often thought about the comparisons and, with the exception where someone is clearly meaning to cause offence it is invariably the actual manner in which it is delivered that causes the offence.

Referring back to the original poster, they mentioned that the words "black" and "ginger" were interpreted differently and subsequently treated as such.

Could both those terms, along with (content deleted by CKN) to name but a few (please understand that no offence was meant by using these two particular examples with the others as neither was deemed particularly offensive when some of us, now more enlightened people, were growing up) simply just be the very first distinguishing descriptor of a simple mind and not specifically be the part of the phrase meant as offensive ie "... that xxxx so & so" or that xxxx ****"? All are summing someone as a "so & so" or "****" it is, to me, that part which offends .... and yes, I get the "fat" one regularly but acknowledge that I am indeed bigger than the average guy so don't take too much offence.

I get your intent but please don't use those words on here.  If you have to amend them to get them past the sweary word filter then you should consider that they're unacceptable entirely.

[ckn]

A moderating ruling on this as some don't seem to understand this:

 

It is always unacceptable to use derogatory words of a racial, sexual or any other commonly used derogatory word that'd probably get you a punch in the face, or arrested, if you used them in public to the targeted person.  The intent of WHY you're using it is irrelevant, just don't use it.

 

This isn't optional.

[Sam Armstrong]

I get your intent but please don't use those words on here. If you have to amend them to get them past the sweary word filter then you should consider that they're unacceptable entirely.

Apologies, as mentioned in my post there was no offence intended but point accepted.

[C H Calthrop]

I've just read this thread and it seems very interesting that even in a well mannered and focused discussion among grown men words are give such power they can't even be used for discussion about those words in public. This isn't just here but this is a widely promoted belief. Regardless of the pragmatic approach to the policing of relatively trivial forums where someone doesn't want to spend the time trawling through comments to try and find the person who is getting vicarious thrills from using magic words and is in reality degrading someone it does illustrate that one form of "abuse" no one cares about is that of intellectual abuse.