Tony Smith questions Bennetts path

[Spidey]

I think the residency rule needs looking at. Three years just doesn't seem long enough for you to qualify for a country

Clint Greenshields playing for France springs to mind

[bobbruce]

This should be simple. If you can get a passport for a country you can play for them. Once you've played for a country though that's it your tied to them.

[mark richardson]

Residency is used in all sports. It isnt worse in RL because you say it is.

That's not the point though is it

The question is we should not have direct opposition players playing for England because the Australian is our only real opponent. It makes no logical sense whether it can happen lawfully legally or morally it is just purely and simply self defeating

One of my true greatest sporting heroes is Mo Farah. He's an African giving his best for England and he's English. There are hundreds of countries participating in athletics and he's escaped a troubled and dangerous country

All any Aussie playing for England is doing is achieving the opportunity to play rugby league internationally when they would not have otherwise in all likelihood

[Dave T]

That's not the point though is it

The question is we should not have direct opposition players playing for England because the Australian is our only real opponent. It makes no logical sense whether it can happen lawfully legally or morally it is just purely and simply self defeating

One of my true greatest sporting heroes is Mo Farah. He's an African giving his best for England and he's English. There are hundreds of countries participating in athletics and he's escaped a troubled and dangerous country

All any Aussie playing for England is doing is achieving the opportunity to play rugby league internationally when they would not have otherwise in all likelihood

The Aussies arent our only rivals.

[mark richardson]

OK Aussie and Kiwi. My point is valid but if you're happy having a player like Evans Chase Heightington play for us because they don't or won't get picked for their own antipodean teams then so be it. Rugby league really is pretty unique on an international basis that this argument is valid

[GaryO]

In the Euro's that have just been played I heard that Putin nationalised a player to Russia some two day's before the tournament started so he could play for them.

That to me is no dafter than giving up your birthright to play fora country you may never have stepped foot in because your grandfather was a Morriss Dancer (pun intended) or your grandmother was a flower seller down the Old Kent Road.

And on the residency rule, if you entered a country before you reached the age of reason, fair enough, otherwise stick to your birthright.

[Adelaide Tiger]

Here we are mired in the old argument about eligibility.

BUT, if we acknowledge that us RL supporters are in the vast minority when compared to the total population then there is another dimension to the argument.

The millions of non RL fans wont give a toss if Bennett picks a couple of players born in Australia as these viewers are quite happy to jump on the band wagon to support English national Cricket and RU teams that regularly have 'naturalised' players.

So is potentially winning a 4 Nations and/or World Cup with some players born outside the UK a small price to pay to get a greater population following and supporting the English RL team and raise the profile of game.

[Allora]

I don't think players that have represented another top rated nation should be able to switch nationality based on Parents/Grandparents.

 

Heritage players for the smaller Nations is another issue, not sure if I agree with that either as it is a bit of a farce in many cases but I can live with it.

 

Players that are born and raised in a one of the "Big Three" countries that can not make that countries Test side so are then willing to play for another top tier team just to get a Cap/experience/whatever does not work for me at all.

I doubt very much the Morris Twins will be selected or would accept an invitation, if they did it would set the International game so far back, the damage would be permanent for many fans of the game, both here and downunder.

[Dave T]

To be clear, i think England need to be very careful which route they go down here. Win at all costs is not a route i support. This needs to be an English team with players the fans identify with. For me that rules out the Morris twins and some of the others named.

Where I am ok with it is where we have players who have made England their home and contributed to the game over here. If they want to represent their homeland, i am good with that as long as tgey are committed to the cause.

The two changes I would like are 1. Extend residency from 3 to 5 years. 2. Make it one nation for your career at top tier - this should ensure commitment.

I think England have to have a principle that they will not abuse the grandparent rule for players never seen on these shores as not sure we can have rules that wouldnt affect the wider international game.

 

[mark richardson]

I think I'd agree with that.
Finally if you don't get my point about Mo Farah... It's this. He's lived 90% of his life here despite being relatively unpopular with my peers. His blood has been run to water to represent our country and he could have done the same for Somalia or any other country in the world but he chose us. RL players will play for England or Australia based on tenuous links and the precedent in Rugby league terms is not a positive one.

[Lowdesert]

Here we are mired in the old argument about eligibility.

BUT, if we acknowledge that us RL supporters are in the vast minority when compared to the total population then there is another dimension to the argument.

The millions of non RL fans wont give a toss if Bennett picks a couple of players born in Australia as these viewers are quite happy to jump on the band wagon to support English national Cricket and RU teams that regularly have 'naturalised' players.

So is potentially winning a 4 Nations and/or World Cup with some players born outside the UK a small price to pay to get a greater population following and supporting the English RL team and raise the profile of game.

Being in a minority doesn't mean you are willing to accept players who can't get into their own national team or who have played for their national team and are now seeking another, based on some distant birthright.

What Smith alludes to is that some have made their home, worked here for a number of years and are committed to the country. Also that the way the appointed coach is going about things is morally wrong and his lack of communication with SL coaches is out of order.

Win at all costs will not win over the vast majority of English fans. It might raise the profile but for a limited time and for the wrong reasons.

[thepimp007]

Does anyone support our national cricket team?

[GaryO]

Does anyone support our national cricket team?

No, well not since H.H. Jam Saheb Shri Sir Ranjitsinhji Vibhaji of Nawanagar, an Indian Prince who made his test debut for England v Australia 16th July 1896, he won 105 caps, went back to India and became a Maharaja.

[Adelaide Tiger]

Being in a minority doesn't mean you are willing to accept players who can't get into their own national team or who have played for their national team and are now seeking another, based on some distant birthright.

What Smith alludes to is that some have made their home, worked here for a number of years and are committed to the country. Also that the way the appointed coach is going about things is morally wrong and his lack of communication with SL coaches is out of order.

Win at all costs will not win over the vast majority of English fans. It might raise the profile but for a limited time and for the wrong reasons.

You might have missed my point.

First I agree that being in a minority diesn't mean you are willing to accept players ..... based on some distant birthright. My view is that I can accept one person on the parent/grand parent rule providing they have not played international RL for another country.

But I disagree with your final paragraph. When the England cricket team is competing in the Ashes and sometimes wins the Ashes the profile of the sport rockets and remains in the public conscionsce until the next Ashes series. And the media build up the hype and rivalry.

Am I to believe that you have refused to watch any Ashes series due to you being morally troubled? If yiu answer Yes then I respect your stance. But if you do watch wanting England to win then why is it wrong for RL to take the same path.

I would happily wager that many, many, many more people that only have a fleeting interest in cricket supported England than were morally outraged. Many of these people probably thought all the players were born in the UK.

It is these people that like to get caught up in the hype that RL needs to attract to boost viewing/ spectating numbers and to show the TV companies that commercially RL deserves a greater share of the pie.

Win at all costs may alienate some RL fans but it will not alienate newbies to the game.

[mark richardson]

You might have missed my point.

First I agree that being in a minority diesn't mean you are willing to accept players ..... based on some distant birthright. My view is that I can accept one person on the parent/grand parent rule providing they have not played international RL for another country.

But I disagree with your final paragraph. When the England cricket team is competing in the Ashes and sometimes wins the Ashes the profile of the sport rockets and remains in the public conscionsce until the next Ashes series. And the media build up the hype and rivalry.

Am I to believe that you have refused to watch any Ashes series due to you being morally troubled? If yiu answer Yes then I respect your stance. But if you do watch wanting England to win then why is it wrong for RL to take the same path.

I would happily wager that many, many, many more people that only have a fleeting interest in cricket supported England than were morally outraged. Many of these people probably thought all the players were born in the UK.

It is these people that like to get caught up in the hype that RL needs to attract to boost viewing/ spectating numbers and to show the TV companies that commercially RL deserves a greater share of the pie.

Win at all costs may alienate some RL fans but it will not alienate newbies to the game.

Do you not think that in cricket that all the players who represent England who may not appear to be completely "English" for whatever reason could have represented their own country at the same level? I don't think it's true of the antipodean representatives who have played for England so far and to be honest for most of the prospective candidates being named so far. Their only hope of playing international rugby league is to switch sides to England. It's not the right way to go in my opinion

And in answer to your question about moral outrage whilst watching cricket I must admit I have often thought "I wish he was really English" it's not so much outrage as much as feeling a slight indignation.

Obviously my anger issues outlined above would suggest I'm outraged quite often.

[terrywebbisgod]

What's the old saying"if you can't beat them, join them".

Why not play the aussies at their own game. We've taken far too many beatings. I'm not advocating a starting 17 of heritage players but if there are better players in certain positions then so be it.

[Lowdesert]

You might have missed my point.

First I agree that being in a minority diesn't mean you are willing to accept players ..... based on some distant birthright. My view is that I can accept one person on the parent/grand parent rule providing they have not played international RL for another country.

But I disagree with your final paragraph. When the England cricket team is competing in the Ashes and sometimes wins the Ashes the profile of the sport rockets and remains in the public conscionsce until the next Ashes series. And the media build up the hype and rivalry.

Am I to believe that you have refused to watch any Ashes series due to you being morally troubled? If yiu answer Yes then I respect your stance. But if you do watch wanting England to win then why is it wrong for RL to take the same path.

I would happily wager that many, many, many more people that only have a fleeting interest in cricket supported England than were morally outraged. Many of these people probably thought all the players were born in the UK.

It is these people that like to get caught up in the hype that RL needs to attract to boost viewing/ spectating numbers and to show the TV companies that commercially RL deserves a greater share of the pie.

Win at all costs may alienate some RL fans but it will not alienate newbies to the game.

So, you believe that creating a situation which alienates RL fans but encourages new fans is the way to go? Mad.

The original post is based on Smiths piece, where he feels he could not sleep right selecting players who did not 'qualify' enough based on his morals and 'tying his stripes' to England. I believe he's exactly right. Win at all costs doesn't seem to be in his train of thought either.

First and foremost the Coach's job is to win the tournament with a Team. Not a Team that is disrupted or maybe disrupted by anything that may influence that Team. He's witnessed this first hand, as an England Coach. Maybe his experience counts for nothing, but in my book he's one person to listen to.

Secondly, he alludes to the way this process is being orchestrated, with many feeling excluded. I agree with that also.

[John Drake]

Edited and removed some unnecessarily personal comments from this thread.

 

No need for any of it.

 

Stick to the point and avoid the personal stuff.

 

Thanks.

[Scubby]

People are getting all fluffed up about things here - the Sydney media is obviously doing its job. Wayne Bennett has made no comments, no squad has been picked yet here we are being led a merry dance.

 

I understand Bennett had a get together with the Australian-based played in maybe April/May. My guess is a few players who qualified through heritage were asked along for the talk. Then the Sydney media has gone sniffing around individual players - most of whom have said "I haven't spoken to anyone".

 

I would have no problem with a player with an English father (i.e. Hodkinson) turning out for England. As someone who lives outside the UK I know how proud I would be to have my children represent England. But grandparents is a tougher gig in my book when we have the pool of players that we do.

 

Do we really believe the likes of Chris Hill, Sam Burgess, Sean O'Loughlin, Josh Hodgson, Kallum Watkins, Ben Currie, Elliott Whitehead, James Graham, Ryan Hall etc. are going to get punted for a player with lesser ability because Wayne Bennett is Australian? Ridiculous.

[Dave T]

What's the old saying"if you can't beat them, join them".

Why not play the aussies at their own game. We've taken far too many beatings. I'm not advocating a starting 17 of heritage players but if there are better players in certain positions then so be it.

when you say play them at their own game, what do you refer to TWIG?

If its using players born abroad. Check.

If its using players who have represented other nations. Check.

What the Aussies havent done is go abroad to tap up players who have never been a part of the Aussie game, and this is the main bit i feel uneasy about.

Lets be honest, based on the makeup of Australia, there are probably a hell of a lot of players who could be eligible for England, im sure we could get 17 Aussies in an England kit. That wouldnt be good and would be nothing like anything the Aussies have done.

[Lowdesert]

People are getting all fluffed up about things here - the Sydney media is obviously doing its job. Wayne Bennett has made no comments, no squad has been picked yet here we are being led a merry dance.

 

I understand Bennett had a get together with the Australian-based played in maybe April/May. My guess is a few players who qualified through heritage were asked along for the talk. Then the Sydney media has gone sniffing around individual players - most of whom have said "I haven't spoken to anyone".

 

I would have no problem with a player with an English father (i.e. Hodkinson) turning out for England. As someone who lives outside the UK I know how proud I would be to have my children represent England. But grandparents is a tougher gig in my book when we have the pool of players that we do.

 

Do we really believe the likes of Chris Hill, Sam Burgess, Sean O'Loughlin, Josh Hodgson, Kallum Watkins, Ben Currie, Elliott Whitehead, James Graham, Ryan Hall etc. are going to get punted for a player with lesser ability because Wayne Bennett is Australian? Ridiculous.

Smiths is quite clear about his issues, which are player qualification rights and the way this is being done as well as passionate people, being distanced without cause. Nowhere does he mention the press or individual players he feels should be in the squad.

If players have naturally adopted a Country, then they qualify for that Country, as do those who have then applied and received residency through that Country's formal processes.

Hodkinson may have an English father but he is Australian born in Australia. Secondly, he has played for NSW in SOO, which is seen as a form of essential qualification and selection criteria for the Kangaroos. This seems to clearly say 'I want to play for my country'. The fact that he can't get in due to Thurston, Cronk et al shouldn't then mean he can play another card which enables him to play for England. This, IMO, is completely wrong.

[terrywebbisgod]

when you say play them at their own game, what do you refer to TWIG?

If its using players born abroad. Check.

If its using players who have represented other nations. Check.

What the Aussies havent done is go abroad to tap up players who have never been a part of the Aussie game, and this is the main bit i feel uneasy about.

Lets be honest, based on the makeup of Australia, there are probably a hell of a lot of players who could be eligible for England, im sure we could get 17 Aussies in an England kit. That wouldnt be good and would be nothing like anything the Aussies have done.

It is what it is Dave.I doubt Bennet would tap up 17+ aussies and taking the moral high ground hasn't got us anywhere.

We simply don't have the "win at all costs" mentality.It's time to put the aussies to the sword.

[Scubby]

Smiths is quite clear about his issues, which are player qualification rights and the way this is being done as well as passionate people, being distanced without cause. Nowhere does he mention the press or individual players he feels should be in the squad.

If players have naturally adopted a Country, then they qualify for that Country, as do those who have then applied and received residency through that Country's formal processes.

Hodkinson may have an English father but he is Australian born in Australia. Secondly, he has played for NSW in SOO, which is seen as a form of essential qualification and selection criteria for the Kangaroos. This seems to clearly say 'I want to play for my country'. The fact that he can't get in due to Thurston, Cronk et al shouldn't then mean he can play another card which enables him to play for England. This, IMO, is completely wrong.

 

Yes but the fact is that we are only talking about him because we have no half backs. Is that his problem that he has been sounded out not just by Bennett in 2016 but by McNamara repeatedly from 2010 onwards? Would they be sounding him out if we were flush with half backs? 

 

Is it any different from Willams, Robson-Kanu, Woakes etc. in the Welsh football team or Jaryd Hayne being approached by the Fiji Sevens team to try out? Honestly, if you live outside the country you will realise that the kids growing up to English parents think completely differently about the opportunities put in front of them. They cannot be blamed for thinking that way.

[GaryO]

What's the old saying"if you can't beat them, join them".

Why not play the aussies at their own game. We've taken far too many beatings. I'm not advocating a starting 17 of heritage players but if there are better players in certain positions then so be it.

There is also another old saying Terry,

Two wrongs don't make a right,

The Laws as they stand appease some not all.

There are both pro and against on this thread for accepting heritage player's, I am firmly against it, but I will have to live with it, I will not forsake watching "My Country" but if there are in my opinion to many that it makes our team look false, I shall be viewing from my living room, not as I mostly do from the terracing.

[GaryO]

Yes but the fact is that we are only talking about him because we have no half backs. Is that his problem that he has been sounded out not just by Bennett in 2016 but by McNamara repeatedly from 2010 onwards? Would they be sounding him out if we were flush with half backs? 

 

Is it any different from Willams, Robson-Kanu, Woakes etc. in the Welsh football team or Jaryd Hayne being approached by the Fiji Sevens team to try out? Honestly, if you live outside the country you will realise that the kids growing up to English parents think completely differently about the opportunities put in front of them. They cannot be blamed for thinking that way.

And another couple of Old Sayings will sum up the last paragraph,

"Having the best of both worlds"

and

Wanting the Cake and Ha'penny

Simply put, if I am not good enough for this, I may be able to fall back on that.