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Bradford Bulls / HMRC / Administration

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Bradford aren't even paying their existing staff on time

 

That makes no difference.


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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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That's irrelevant (although I agree with the premise)

HMRC don't just send you random numbers based on stuff, they base it on your business incomings etc. This also hasn't occurred overnight has it? It's been a bit of a theme.

But they do just send you figures. If you are late in in submitting returns (or don't submit them, HMRC will make an assessment. They base the figures on a business they consider to be the same as yours. Bradford could be assessed to owe the same as Leeds.

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But they do just send you figures. If you are late in in submitting returns (or don't submit them, HMRC will make an assessment. They base the figures on a business they consider to be the same as yours. Bradford could be assessed to owe the same as Leeds.

The short answer is to not play games with the taxman. You'll usually lose.

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That makes no difference.

So don't pay your existing staff and don't pay the tax man and that makes no difference

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So don't pay your existing staff and don't pay the tax man and that makes no difference

 

People are trying to compare two different sets of circumstances, choosing one "fact" from one set of circumstances does not make the comparison valid, in fact it makes no difference, the circumstances will remain different.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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So don't pay your existing staff and don't pay the tax man and that makes no difference

Who, of the existing staff, has not been paid?

We have paid the tax man the amount that the Bulls have calculated. HMRC have come to a different figure. The HMRC figure is in dispute and the HMRC figure was not found to be immediately correct or enforceable on review. The matter continues with Green saying that due monies will be settled.

Companies argue the toss over tax every day of the week. So long as the club can settle the final agreed figure, whatever that is, what's the problem?


Forever in our shadow, forever on your mind.

 

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You really are one sad individual

 

I'm just a regular guy who loves his RL Lee.

 

Who, of the existing staff, has not been paid?

We have paid the tax man the amount that the Bulls have calculated. HMRC have come to a different figure. The HMRC figure is in dispute and the HMRC figure was not found to be immediately correct or enforceable on review. The matter continues with Green saying that due monies will be settled.

Companies argue the toss over tax every day of the week. So long as the club can settle the final agreed figure, whatever that is, what's the problem?

 

It's Bradford of course

Edited by The Parksider

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I bet all the moral high-grounders on here (you know who you are) are still using Google on their Apple device, drinking Starbucks coffee and ordering their bits off Amazon.  All whilst listening to Take That.

 I hope the marketing arm of the RFL has taken note of the new fan base demographic. :biggrin:


“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”    

 

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No, tax is not necessarily a black and white affair, unless your affairs are really simple, and HMRC like many other government departments have suffered cut-backs with lots of tax offices closing.  This makes dealing with them, and particularly their automated systems really quite difficult and slow process.

 

No one will ever see this if your only experience of HMRC is simply your employer deducting tax each month.

Absolutely spot on. A pleasure to read some informed comment. The UK tax code is so stupidly, ridiculously complex (blame successive Chancellors of all hues for that) that the correct tax treatment is frequently open to significant interpretation. HMRC have lost many, many capable and experienced staff. And businesses have to pay fortunes to accountants and lawyers, who are the only winners from all this.

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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Just keep selling those to good to be true Season Tickets, that should go some way to paying the bill (me a cynic? :))  Then we go around again as the ST entrance monies have been used up well before a ball is passed.  They have reneged on ST deals recently, and there is nothing to say any new owners (if that happens) will honour the crazy deal.  How on earth are they going to get to February with no income from anywhere and the ST money already swallowed up?


Here we go again .....

 

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Just keep selling those to good to be true Season Tickets, that should go some way to paying the bill (me a cynic? :))  

 

Using season tickets as a way to generate money in the off season? How do clubs get away with this??

 

In reality the ST deal is a slight discount on 2016. The promise of further discount in 2018 based on how well the season goes is - I believe - being underwritten by the club's main sponsor.

Edited by Amber Avenger

SQL Honours

Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009

CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

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If the club aren't forthcoming with information, then it makes it very hard for HMRC to deal with them. And then are downright rude to any person sent to deal with it, then its unsurprising that they aren't given any benefit of the doubt.

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Using season tickets as a way to generate money in the off season? How do clubs get away with this??

 

In reality the ST deal is a slight discount on 2016. The promise of further discount in 2018 based on how well the season goes is - I believe - being underwritten by the club's main sponsor.

Where does it say anywhere that Provident are going to pay for everyones free season ticket should you get promoted.  As for generating money in the off season, yes that is correct.  But applying logic to the current situation this money will more than likely be used to pay the tax bill for money you have had and spent.  Are you going to have a year of rolling winding up orders.  Hopefully Bradford can get some more backers/investors who will be able to sort everything out.


Here we go again .....

 

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Didn't realise you had access to Bradford's current accounts - so many people on these forums seem to have had over the years, it's amazing. :)

 

It's mentioned in the original video that launched the season tickets that Provident are supporting this deal - I'm not sure of the ins and outs of how where and why, but then it's a business deal. I think - given the recent results in the past two years on the pitch - Provident (or the club's) money might be completely safe.

Edited by Amber Avenger

SQL Honours

Play off mini league winner - 2002. Bronze Medalist - 2003. Big Split Group Winner - 2006. Minor Stupidship - 2005, 2006. Cup Silver Medalist - 2008, 2009

CHAMPION - 2005, 2009, 2010

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Seems like few lessons if any have been learned at the Iconic Club. No matter if its 20K or 100K a club should be paying that off before signing players-especially from Australia. The Bulls just seem to be forever caught up in this mess that they cant get properly free from. That has to be a concern. Its not as if these problems have just happened- they have been around for months. With this problem forever being around Bradford for me cant move forward ahead properly. Its clear they do not have any money, yet some posters are forever demanding they should be in SL. Bradford like any club can only go forward when the baggage they have is cut free. Mr Green seems to be somebody who pays things last minute and hopes things work themselves out. I just cant see how that can be a good thing for Bradford at all.

 

The game as a whole needs to look at things as its not as if we just have Bradford in a mess, but realistically most of the game from SL down to Championship 1. Maybe its time clubs worked more together and looked for example that the Championship do a deal with a sportswear company for every club. It might mean clubs overall saving money. Look at how clubs maybe can market season tickets of match day tickets for both home and away etc. At the moment it seems we have many clubs in problems all fighting lone battles when maybe they should look to work more together and this may help prevent some problems happening.

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Seems like few lessons if any have been learned at the Iconic Club. No matter if its 20K or 100K a club should be paying that off before signing players-especially from Australia. The Bulls just seem to be forever caught up in this mess that they cant get properly free from. That has to be a concern. Its not as if these problems have just happened- they have been around for months. With this problem forever being around Bradford for me cant move forward ahead properly. Its clear they do not have any money, yet some posters are forever demanding they should be in SL. Bradford like any club can only go forward when the baggage they have is cut free. Mr Green seems to be somebody who pays things last minute and hopes things work themselves out. I just cant see how that can be a good thing for Bradford at all.

 

The game as a whole needs to look at things as its not as if we just have Bradford in a mess, but realistically most of the game from SL down to Championship 1. Maybe its time clubs worked more together and looked for example that the Championship do a deal with a sportswear company for every club. It might mean clubs overall saving money. Look at how clubs maybe can market season tickets of match day tickets for both home and away etc. At the moment it seems we have many clubs in problems all fighting lone battles when maybe they should look to work more together and this may help prevent some problems happening.

 

So company that makes metal spiggots should stop buying metal to make spiggots with to help them pay-off their debts, strange economic philosophy.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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A business that has problems financially etc, just keeps buying expensive materials and hope things are OK, before working with the Tax Man and finding out exactly how much is owed and if it has the money to pay it. Strange economic philosophy!

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To pay anybody you have to keep money coming in so you can pay out, logical economic philosophy, its easy to say a business should stop spending money so it can pay a debt, you may pay the debt but then you have killed the business.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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1 ) I didnt say Bradford couldnt/ Shouldnt sign anybody or even stop spending money. 

2 ) Money is still coming in all the time in some form from match Sales, Season Tickets, Merchandise, Sponsors etc

3 ) A debt is not a problem, if you can afford to pay it- but Bradford clearly havent or have had problems with various debts over a few years now

4) Bradford would not go out of business if they delayed signing new players. It cant have been so hard to find out how much they owe and set money a side for that as well as paying employees- which it clearly didnt, as people were owed money and the Tax Man was waiting to be payed etc. 

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1 ) I didnt say Bradford couldnt/ Shouldnt sign anybody or even stop spending money. 

2 ) Money is still coming in all the time in some form from match Sales, Season Tickets, Merchandise, Sponsors etc

3 ) A debt is not a problem, if you can afford to pay it- but Bradford clearly havent or have had problems with various debts over a few years now

4) Bradford would not go out of business if they delayed signing new players. It cant have been so hard to find out how much they owe and set money a side for that as well as paying employees- which it clearly didnt, as people were owed money and the Tax Man was waiting to be payed etc. 

 

Point four is the key, players contracts finish they move on (staff leave a company they need to be replaced), you cannot sit on a diminishing squad (smaller raw materials in stores), you cannot rely on inferior players to deliver a quality team ( the quality of the raw material determines the quality of the product), at the end of the day these are business decisions taken between Bradford and the RFL to just say "they shouldn't be allowed to sign anybody" without knowing ALL of the circumstances is so naive as to be child like in its simplicity.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com

Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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Seems like few lessons if any have been learned at the Iconic Club. No matter if its 20K or 100K a club should be paying that off before signing players-especially from Australia. The Bulls just seem to be forever caught up in this mess that they cant get properly free from. That has to be a concern. Its not as if these problems have just happened- they have been around for months. With this problem forever being around Bradford for me cant move forward ahead properly. Its clear they do not have any money, yet some posters are forever demanding they should be in SL. Bradford like any club can only go forward when the baggage they have is cut free. Mr Green seems to be somebody who pays things last minute and hopes things work themselves out. I just cant see how that can be a good thing for Bradford at all.

 

Why should Mr. Green pay anything out of his own pocket if he can avoid it, he's proving himself as the Bulls saviour, keeping them afloat, keeping them as competitive as he can. I suppose he could put a £Million in like Beaumont and gamble on Bulls being able to beat SL clubs, but I would not blame him for treading water whilst the system changes.

 

Anyway read this carefully Lizzy and digest.........

 

Point four is the key, players contracts finish they move on (staff leave a company they need to be replaced), you cannot sit on a diminishing squad (smaller raw materials in stores), you cannot rely on inferior players to deliver a quality team ( the quality of the raw material determines the quality of the product), at the end of the day these are business decisions taken between Bradford and the RFL to just say "they shouldn't be allowed to sign anybody" without knowing ALL of the circumstances is so naive as to be child like in its simplicity.

 

In 2003 as I understand it Halifax were financially unstable and decided to avoid administration by staying debt free and adopting the noble policy lauded on here and paying out only what they could afford.

 

The result of that was a playing record of Played 28 Lost 27, and a drop in crowds to less than 3,000.

 

Then it resulted in 13 years in the Championship before this last year when they received prize money for being in the Qualifiers but spent that on paying off debt whilst it was reported in League Weekly they were also asking players to take wage cuts.

 

And so Halifax "cut free" their "baggage of debt" back in 2003 and again in 2016 so what are you trying to say Lizzie?? That Bulls should just accept a spiral of decline? You don't like the Bulls we know so maybe but maybe "some people" enjoy where Bulls are.

 

But I don't as the Bulls are a club that can find and develop top players and pull in five figure crowds which is what SL want and so impressed Halifax's directors that some time after mergers were rejected wholesale, they were asking Bulls about a tie up. That didn't happen and a long decline set in for Fax and now 16 years on from that the club are a shadow of their former self in a soccer ground.

 

I'm quite sure Mr. Green doesn't need "lessons" from you, but you certainly need a lesson from Mr. Padge. 

Edited by The Parksider

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Why should Mr. Green pay anything out of his own pocket if he can avoid it, he's proving himself as the Bulls saviour, keeping them afloat, keeping them as competitive as he can. I suppose he could put a £Million in like Beaumont and gamble on Bulls being able to beat SL clubs, but I would not blame him for treading water whilst the system changes.

 

Anyway read this carefully Lizzy and digest.........

 

 

In 2003 as I understand it Halifax were financially unstable and decided to avoid administration by staying debt free and adopting the noble policy lauded on here and paying out only what they could afford.

 

The result of that was a playing record of Played 28 Lost 27, and a drop in crowds to less than 3,000.

 

Then it resulted in 13 years in the Championship before this last year when they received prize money for being in the Qualifiers but spent that on paying off debt whilst it was reported in League Weekly they were also asking players to take wage cuts.

 

And so Halifax "cut free" their "baggage of debt" back in 2003 and again in 2016 so what are you trying to say Lizzie?? That Bulls should just accept a spiral of decline? You don't like the Bulls we know so maybe but maybe "some people" enjoy where Bulls are.

 

But I don't as the Bulls are a club that can find and develop top players and pull in five figure crowds which is what SL want and so impressed Halifax's directors that some time after mergers were rejected wholesale, they were asking Bulls about a tie up. That didn't happen and a long decline set in for Fax and now 16 years on from that the club are a shadow of their former self in a soccer ground.

 

I'm quite sure Mr. Green doesn't need "lessons" from you, but you certainly need a lesson from Mr. Padge. 

 

    I didn't think it was about 'adopting the noble policy' I thought it was about the toothless tiger that is the governing body writing out a policy that the governing body fail to adhere to.

 

    It seems to be a lottery about which clubs are having certain regulations applied vigorously and other clubs where those regulations are not applied.

 

    Perhaps we should apply the apparent philosophy of the day and go back retrospectively applying regulations and policies and procedures and penalise those clubs now, where regulations,policies and procedures escaped the net.

 

    A bit like those dual reg.anomalies and the number of NRL games played,etc...


     Born - didn't ask. Dying - didn't argue                                 

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This is about a disputed tax calculation - VAT apparently.  We have paid HMRC the amount that we have calculated to be correct.  The HMRC have calculated a different (higher) figure.  Green has said that due tax will be settled once a final figure is reached.  There might be some to pay there might be none.

 

This is not about the ability to pay, although I can see why some might want to spin it that way.

 

Anyone with even one brain cell knows that you don't pay out  c£200k to a creditor if you think they've got their sums wrong.  And if anyone is going to get their sums wrong it's HMRC.  

 

One wonders if this might be another case along the lines of Jaffa Cakes and biscuits.


Forever in our shadow, forever on your mind.

 

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This is about a disputed tax calculation - VAT apparently.  We have paid HMRC the amount that we have calculated to be correct.  The HMRC have calculated a different (higher) figure.  Green has said that due tax will be settled once a final figure is reached.  There might be some to pay there might be none.

 

This is not about the ability to pay, although I can see why some might want to spin it that way.

 

Anyone with even one brain cell knows that you don't pay out  c£200k to a creditor if you think they've got their sums wrong.  And if anyone is going to get their sums wrong it's HMRC.  

 

One wonders if this might be another case along the lines of Jaffa Cakes and biscuits.

Why doesn't he just pay the HMRC instead of constantly playing cat and mouse? Do you think it does the clubs reputation any good?

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Why doesn't he just pay the HMRC instead of constantly playing cat and mouse? Do you think it does the clubs reputation any good?

 

Why would you pay someone £200k if you genuinely believed there was a £200k error in the calculation?  

 

The club's 'reputation' is not worth £200k!  I guess Green, like most of us, would rather keep the £200k in his pocket.

 

The embarrassment of Bradford fans on internet forums is probably the last thing on his mind.

 

I'm a Bradford fan BTW, I'd rather the club had an extra £200k to spend of players' wages than go to the taxman. Unless of course, it is genuinely a £200k bill which needs to be paid.

 

I don't really care what other fans think of my club too much.  They will of course just see it as some kind of extension of previous financial troubles.

 

I'm sure we'll all find out soon enough whether Marc Green or HMRC are correct.

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