national anthems

[Samdog3554]

why when we play as england do we have to have god save the queen,surely this is the anthem for great britian,all the other nationals have there own anthems why not use as england,patriotic but this takes the biscuit.

[terrywebbisgod]

England has no official national anthem.That's why "God save the Queen" is used.

[Hvy wg]

Is "Abide with me" anything official?

[terrywebbisgod]

Is "Abide with me" anything official?

No.It's a hymn.

[Odsal Outlaw]

God Save the Queen is used across most sports where England play. As I recall one of the few positives at the 2000 RLWC was that we had Land of Hope & Glory.

[Hvy wg]

No.It's a hymn.

By far my favorite and the only one that I sing at the stadium.

[Bearman]

Abide with me?

I've never understood how it is fitting for young men at the prime of their lives.

Abide with me, fast falls the eventide

The darkness deepens; Lord, with me abide

When other helpers fail and comforts flee

Help of the helpless, oh, abide with me

Swift to its close ebbs out life's little day

Earth's joys grow dim, its glories pass away

Change and decay in all around I see

O Thou who changest not, abide with me

I fear no foe, with Thee at hand to bless

Ills have no weight, and tears no bitterness

Where is death's sting? Where, grave, thy victory?

I triumph still oh Lord abide with me.

Not exactly a rollicking song to stir anyone up is it?

But I suppose being full of doom and gloom it's quite apt for RL supporters.

[Colin James]

It's a stupid song about a woman who lives in a castle and an imaginary deity.

Sportsmen (footballers in particular) get stick for not showing enough passion singing it but I wouldn't sing it either. I don't believe in a god and am not a royalist.

The anthem should be about the country and it certainly shouldn't be religious.

[Hvy wg]

Abide with me?

I've never understood how it is fitting for young men at the prime of their lives.

Abide with me, fast falls the eventide

The darkness deepens; Lord, with me abide

When other helpers fail and comforts flee

Help of the helpless, oh, abide with me

Swift to its close ebbs out life's little day

Earth's joys grow dim, its glories pass away

Change and decay in all around I see

O Thou who changest not, abide with me

I fear no foe, with Thee at hand to bless

Ills have no weight, and tears no bitterness

Where is death's sting? Where, grave, thy victory?

I triumph still oh Lord abide with me.

Not exactly a rollicking song to stir anyone up is it?

But I suppose being full of doom and gloom om it's quite apt for RL supporters.

I don't really think hymns should "fit" the game. It's just about listening and discovering which one makes you "feel" the most. I don't see much how a song about the Queen fits rugby league either. 

French anthem isn't much better in this concern. 

I love Abide with me and I ain't even a Christian. It's just about how and what I feel when listening to it. Spanish people got it right, you can't complain about an anthem without lyrics hey.

 

[Tommygilf]

I don't really think hymns should "fit" the game. It's just about listening and discovering which one makes you "feel" the most. I don't see much how a song about the Queen fits rugby league either.

French anthem isn't much better in this concern.

I love Abide with me and I ain't even a Christian. It's just about how and what I feel when listening to it. Spanish people got it right, you can't complain about an anthem without lyrics hey.

The french and italians anthems are quite rousing though. For me an England specific one would have to be Jerusalem.

On GSTQ, to me its the British national anthem, and it should play a role in any fixture involving British teams.

[Bearman]

I don't really think hymns should "fit" the game.

That's the point. Its a hymn and it belongs in church.

An Anthem should be a rallying point for the nation.

200 years ago God and the King might have been relevant to a section of society ( not to powder monkeys or kids up chimneys or down coal mines but they didn't count for much). The indigenous population of this country is increasingly secular. If there is a religion that is popular it's Islam. Allah save the Queen?

Australia Fair is to me a bit of a dirge but at least it's about the country.

I would suggest a Eurovision Song Contest to pick another but we can't even get referendums right

[Wellsy4HullFC]

It's a stupid song about a woman who lives in a castle and an imaginary deity.

Sportsmen (footballers in particular) get stick for not showing enough passion singing it but I wouldn't sing it either. I don't believe in a god and am not a royalist.

The anthem should be about the country and it certainly shouldn't be religious.

I agree. It's not about our country at all.

Just thinking of the ones I know (as they're in English):

USA talk about "the land of the free and the home of the brave."

Aus talks about the history of their country and what it's like.

Canada talks about being strong and free.

We just talk about our monarch and how long we'll be reigned over for.

I prefer "Land of Hope and Glory" as it talks about the country itself. (Still mentions God, but most do) It's just a shame most of the public don't know the words. I'd prefer us to stay in line with the other sports so at least the public feel comfortable joining in.

[Hvy wg]

The french and italians anthems are quite rousing though. 

Some of the young French want to change the anthem stating that it's a violent and racist song.

 

 

Just thinking of the ones I know (as they're in English):

USA talk about "the land of the free and the home of the brave."

Aus talks about the history of their country and what it's like.

Canada talks about being strong and free.

We just talk about our monarch and how long we'll be reigned over for.

I prefer "Land of Hope and Glory" as it talks about the country itself. (Still mentions God, but most do) It's just a shame most of the public don't know the words. I'd prefer us to stay in line with the other sports so at least the public feel comfortable joining in.

Here's a part of the French one : 

"Do you hear, in the countryside,

The roar of those ferocious soldiers?

They're coming right into your arms

To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

To arms, citizens,

Form your battalions,

Let's march, let's march!

Let an impure blood

Soak our fields!"

I'm not that comfortable with children having to sing how ferocious soldiers are cutting the throats of our women and to let impure blood soak our fields but you don't usually get the lyrics until you're in your twenties (some even don't get them at 80). 

Should we sing about forming battalions and people who "rip their mother's breasts", I'm not sure. But really I'd rather teach my son about Abide with me than La Marseillaise. 

EDIT : Didn't the Scottish vote for their anthem and chose Flower Of Scotland?

[JohnM]

The french and italians anthems are quite rousing though. For me an England specific one would have to be Jerusalem.

On GSTQ, to me its the British national anthem, and it should play a role in any fixture involving British teams.

What is it about Jerusalem that appeals to you?

Here are the words to La Marseillaise: nice!

Arise, children of the Fatherland

The day of glory has arrived

Against us tyranny's

Bloody banner is raised

Do you hear, in the countryside

The roar of those ferocious soldiers?

They're coming right into your arms

To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

To arms, citizens!

Form your battalions

Let's march, let's march

Let an impure blood

Water our furrows!

[Tommygilf]

Some of the young French want to change the anthem stating that it's a violent and racist song.

Here's a part of the French one :

"Do you hear, in the countryside,

The roar of those ferocious soldiers?

They're coming right into your arms

To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

To arms, citizens,

Form your battalions,

Let's march, let's march!

Let an impure blood

Soak our fields!"

I'm not that comfortable with children having to sing how ferocious soldiers are cutting the throats of our women and to let impure blood soak our fields but you don't usually get the lyrics until you're in your twenties (some even don't get them at 80).

Should we sing about forming battalions and people who "rip their mother's breasts", I'm not sure. But really I'd rather teach my son about Abide with me than La Marseillaise.

EDIT : Didn't the Scottish vote for their anthem and chose Flower Of Scotland?

I was only commenting as an outsider, it also appears to make the players quite emotional. The kiwi haka is a de facto form of national anthem and isn't exactly welcoming is it?

As for the scots I believe there was a poll in the mid 2000s, however it only ratified the convention of the use of flower of scotland that had been happening for at least 15 years by then.

[Hvy wg]

What is it about Jerusalem that appeals to you?

Here are the words to La Marseillaise: nice!

Arise, children of the Fatherland

The day of glory has arrived

Against us tyranny's

Bloody banner is raised

Do you hear, in the countryside

The roar of those ferocious soldiers?

They're coming right into your arms

To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

To arms, citizens!

Form your battalions

Let's march, let's march

Let an impure blood

Water our furrows!

So good we had to post the same thing at the same time. 

One "funny" thing is that a guy added a verse to it a bit later, that is meant to be sung by children. Here it is, in English :

"We shall enter the career

When our elders are no longer there,

There we shall find their dust

And the trace of their virtues 

Much less keen to survive them

Than to share their coffins,

We shall have the sublime pride

Of avenging or following them."

Brutal.

EDIT : Actually, JohnM translation of the first verse is much more accurate as the last line in French is "Qu'un sang impur abreuve nos sillons" which Wikipedia (shame on me) translated as "Let an impure blood water our fields" but "water our furrows" is a much better translation. 

[JohnM]

GSTQ is only a dirge because it's usually played far to slowly. ..in my view.

As an atheist, I won't sing any anthem that involves a God. Rules out GSTQ and Land of Hope and Glory

Nor will I sing a hymn...rules out Abide with Me.

As a Conservative, I won't sing Jerusalem , as William Blake was very mush of the left.

I think we should adopt Billy Connolly's suggestion, Barwick Green, especially as it has no words, so can't offend anyone.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Some of the young French want to change the anthem stating that it's a violent and racist song.

Here's a part of the French one :

"Do you hear, in the countryside,

The roar of those ferocious soldiers?

They're coming right into your arms

To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

To arms, citizens,

Form your battalions,

Let's march, let's march!

Let an impure blood

Soak our fields!"

I'm not that comfortable with children having to sing how ferocious soldiers are cutting the throats of our women and to let impure blood soak our fields but you don't usually get the lyrics until you're in your twenties (some even don't get them at 80).

Should we sing about forming battalions and people who "rip their mother's breasts", I'm not sure. But really I'd rather teach my son about Abide with me than La Marseillaise.

EDIT : Didn't the Scottish vote for their anthem and chose Flower Of Scotland?

Not quite sure how that links to my post. That is a pretty vile anthem to be fair! Barbaric. I never mentioned it in my post though.

[JohnM]

I think it illustrates a point that the words don't really matter. Maybe we just want a rousing tune we can all "la-la" along with.

[Tommygilf]

What is it about Jerusalem that appeals to you?

Here are the words to La Marseillaise: nice!

Arise, children of the Fatherland

The day of glory has arrived

Against us tyranny's

Bloody banner is raised

Do you hear, in the countryside

The roar of those ferocious soldiers?

They're coming right into your arms

To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

To arms, citizens!

Form your battalions

Let's march, let's march

Let an impure blood

Water our furrows!

Its always just been a popular song, at my old school particularly but in wider society too.

It talks about England; our "mountains green", our "pleasant pastures" and our "dark satanic mills" and "clouded hills". It thus epitomises the English tendency to understatement. Its not claiming ownership of "the free and the brave", nor is born of revolutionary spirit a la Marseillaise. It is suitably reserved, even when calling for "bows of burning gold" and the like, it still insists that "nor shall my sword sleep in my hand". In a way therefore, it surmises an often confused English patriotism, acutely aware of its own faults yet often proud to stand by them. You could argue this is reflected in a variety of other things including Flower of Scotland (obviously for Scotland not England but the point remains) and even Sacha Baren Cohen's film Grimsby. The self deprecation often found in comedy throughout English (and British) history is therefore well complimented by a song that doesn't claim superiority overtly, but inspires a quiet confidence and common purpose to "England".

It merges both religious imagery with realism of what constitutes the nation; the overall effect, especially when sung by a crowd, is definitively stirring. That sort of feeling is hard to capture and that perhaps is precisely why people like it.

I could go on.

As for la Marseillaise I've responded below.

[Sco77]

Are you not aware that there are 6 verses to GSTQ? Some lyrics quite rousing!

1. God save our gracious Queen,

Long live our noble Queen,

God save the Queen!

Send her victorious,

Happy and glorious,

Long to reign over us;

God save the Queen!

2. O Lord our God arise,

Scatter her enemies

And make them fall;

Confound their politics,

Frustrate their knavish tricks,

On Thee our hopes we fix,

God save us all!

3. Thy choicest gifts in store

On her be pleased to pour;

Long may she reign;

May she defend our laws,

And ever give us cause

To sing with heart and voice,

God save the Queen!

4. Not in this land alone,

But be God's mercies known,

From shore to shore!

Lord make the nations see,

That men should brothers be,

And form one family,

The wide world over.

5. From every latent foe,

From the assassins blow,

God save the Queen!

O'er her thine arm extend,

For Britain's sake defend,

Our mother, prince, and friend,

God save the Queen!

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring.

May he sedition hush,

And like a torrent rush,

Rebellious Scots to crush.

God save the Queen!

[JohnM]

Its always just been a popular song, at my old school particularly but in wider society too.

It talks about England; our "mountains green", our "pleasant pastures" and our "dark satanic mills" and "clouded hills". It thus epitomises the English tendency to understatement. Its not claiming ownership of "the free and the brave", nor is born of revolutionary spirit a la Marseillaise. It is suitably reserved, even when calling for "bows of burning gold" and the like, it still insists that "nor shall my sword sleep in my hand". In a way therefore, it surmises an often confused English patriotism, acutely aware of its own faults yet often proud to stand by them. You could argue this is reflected in a variety of other things including Flower of Scotland (obviously for Scotland not England but the point remains) and even Sacha Baren Cohen's film Grimsby. The self deprecation often found in comedy throughout English (and British) history is therefore well complimented by a song that doesn't claim superiority overtly, but inspires a quiet confidence and common purpose to "England".

It merges both religious imagery with realism of what constitutes the nation; the overall effect, especially when sung by a crowd, is definitively stirring. That sort of feeling is hard to capture and that perhaps is precisely why people like it.

I could go on.

As for la Marseillaise I've responded below.

Hmmm. That's the problem with Jerusalem. There are so many interpretations of William Blake poem. Worth noting perhaps that had Blake been alive, he'd have almost certainly been a Twickenham man. As far as I know, he'd never been north of Watford, and his dark satanic mills nothing to do with the Heavy Woolen district. Indeed, is seems the imagery was inspired by the Albion Mills in that London.

As far as I can see, the only relevance is that his left wing views chime with the views of what is a predominantly left wing set of posters on here.

Maybe we should have a referendum: Shold all rugby league internationals involving England start with the Women's Institute signature hymn? Imagine how that would run with the media!

Of all the myriad problems with our game - and this forum is awash with them, somtimes real though often imaginary - singing the words of the preface to Milton a Poem isn't going to fix any of them.

[Trojan]

I think this would make a great English National Anthem

 

These things shall be: a loftier race
Than e'er the world hath known shall rise
With flame of freedom in their souls
And light of knowledge in their eyes.
 

2 They shall be gentle, brave, and strong,
To spill no drop of blood, but dare
All that may plant man's lordship firm
On earth, and fire, and sea, and air.

 

3 Nation with nation, land with land,
Unarmed shall live as comrades free;
In every heart and brain shall throb
The pulse of one fraternity.

 

4 New arts shall bloom of loftier mold,
And mightier music thrill the skies,
And every life shall be a song,
When all the earth is paradise.

 

Perhaps Fight the Good Fight would make us more militant

[Tommygilf]

Hmmm. That's the problem with Jerusalem. There are so many interpretations of William Blake poem. Worth noting perhaps that had Blake been alive, he'd have almost certainly been a Twickenham man. As far as I know, he'd never been north of Watford, and his dark satanic mills nothing to do with the Heavy Woolen district. Indeed, is seems the imagery was inspired by the Albion Mills in that London.

As far as I can see, the only relevance is that his left wing views chime with the views of what is a predominantly left wing set of posters on here.

Maybe we should have a referendum: Shold all rugby league internationals involving England start with the Women's Institute signature hymn? Imagine how that would run with the media!

Of all the myriad problems with our game - and this forum is awash with them, somtimes real though often imaginary - singing the words of the preface to Milton a Poem isn't going to fix any of them.

Surely the anthem should transcend if he would be a Twickenham man or not? Also, the location of the mills is precisely the point, because he doesn't specify he makes it universal. The mills could be in London, Bristol, Newcastle or Dewsbury it doesn't matter, its England.

As for the left wing idea, its been sung at party conferences of all the major parties. Arguably you'd have to say that something which unites the British labour party after singing Red Flag and public school students up and down the country perhaps is ideal. It can mean lots of positive things to lots of different people.

I'm doubtful some of the media would even notice it but we can hope!

Well to be fair this thread is on national anthems.

[Tommygilf]

Are you not aware that there are 6 verses to GSTQ? Some lyrics quite rousing!

1. God save our gracious Queen,

Long live our noble Queen,

God save the Queen!

Send her victorious,

Happy and glorious,

Long to reign over us;

God save the Queen!

2. O Lord our God arise,

Scatter her enemies

And make them fall;

Confound their politics,

Frustrate their knavish tricks,

On Thee our hopes we fix,

God save us all!

3. Thy choicest gifts in store

On her be pleased to pour;

Long may she reign;

May she defend our laws,

And ever give us cause

To sing with heart and voice,

God save the Queen!

4. Not in this land alone,

But be God's mercies known,

From shore to shore!

Lord make the nations see,

That men should brothers be,

And form one family,

The wide world over.

5. From every latent foe,

From the assassins blow,

God save the Queen!

O'er her thine arm extend,

For Britain's sake defend,

Our mother, prince, and friend,

God save the Queen!

6. Lord grant that Marshal Wade

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring.

May he sedition hush,

And like a torrent rush,

Rebellious Scots to crush.

God save the Queen!

Personal favourite is rebellious scots to crush, in practicality would we ever add any extra verses on now?