If we mothball England for 11m each year we'll always be trying out on the job

[Scubby]

Says it all really. We end up having to try out combinations and teams in the heat of the big competitions. Keep England under wraps for 11 months every year and we probably get what we deserve.

 

We need to play 7-8 tests every year and it needs to be every few months. Bennett mentioned training camps and mid-season tests before this series even started. He knows exactly what the problem is. Trying out on the job has happened now for 5-10 years. The club game needs to recognise this because we have some good players there.

[paulalmanack]

This would mean either more midweek games, or less teams for less games. Don't see Super league CEOs being interested in getting this one over. A case of we know it's broke but we dont wanna fix it.

[Mattrhino]

Was just saying on other thread. With ANZAC + SOO the aussies get together 5 times a year even more in tournament years.

Yet the RFL think we can outperform them with a squad thrown together 2 weeks of the year then never again to be seen for another year.

[Scubby]

Percival and Williams are really good examples of this. They need another 4-5 tough games playing in the England system before the World Cup comes around. They may get one (if they are lucky) and then have to face Australia on home soil after no action for 11 months.

[Mark S]

The game is short sighted, a successful international game would have a much more positive effect than Leeds beating Wakefield for the 3rd time in a season. The game is being held back by a clique of CEOs and the head people at the RFL.

[Futtocks]

Percival and Williams are really good examples of this. They need another 4-5 tough games playing in the England system before the World Cup comes around. They may get one (if they are lucky) and then have to face Australia on home soil after no action for 11 months.

Lomax, too.

[Oxford]

Now you've done it. You've said all this and woken the Kraken. Keep RL on our street in Batley and nowhere else will be here any second and we'll have a list as long as your arm of why and how is can't possibly be done. And if they don't where would be the fun in that?

[Scubby]

Lomax, too.

 

True. Lomax seems to be warming into the system but he has played with 3 different half back pairings in 3 weeks. How can we blame Bennett for this when he has no opportunities to find out who can cut it? He has to try out in the big games. He probably went with advice on Gale from the other coaching staff and gave him a chance. Percival looks like he could make a good centre but will have to stew for a year on a couple of dropped balls. England is not set up to be anywhere near consistent.

 

Boyd, Smith, Cronk, and Thurston (1, 9, 6, 7) will have played together maybe 8-9 times this season. We are experimenting on the job.

[Bedford Roughyed]

We are playing Samoa in May.

[Scubby]

We are playing Samoa in May.

 

I hope so, IIRC it was Bennett who has tried to put this in place and the clubs that moaned. 

 

People complained that he looked at bringing Trent Hodkinson in and said well he is no better than Luke Gale or Mark Sneyd. I think he realised he had b****r all opportunity to get this team together that he just wanted a trusted hand. Time has shown this to be the Achilles heel (the spine)

 

Williams may be one of England's great players over the next 10 years. Giving him no time in an England shirt between now and the opening game in Australia will yield its own results. He will be good but not ready.

[yipyee]

True. Lomax seems to be warming into the system but he has played with 3 different half back pairings in 3 weeks. How can we blame Bennett for this when he has no opportunities to find out who can cut it? He has to try out in the big games. He probably went with advice on Gale from the other coaching staff and gave him a chance. Percival looks like he could make a good centre but will have to stew for a year on a couple of dropped balls. England is not set up to be anywhere near consistent.

Boyd, Smith, Cronk, and Thurston (1, 9, 6, 7) will have played together maybe 8-9 times this season. We are experimenting on the job.

Last time we beat the aussies we had

Wellens FB

Long SH

Pryce SO

Roby H

Now what is the connection????

[Scubby]

Last time we beat the aussies we had

Wellens FB

Long SH

Pryce SO

Roby H

Now what is the connection????

 

I think Newton was the hooker and Roby sub on that day but I get what you mean. Also, Long had been 7 for three years and Pryce and Wellens were club mates.

[yipyee]

I think Newton was the hooker and Roby sub on that day but I get what you mean. Also, Long had been 7 for three years and Pryce and Wellens were club mates.

Think sculthorpe was loose as well.

A spine used to each other.

A yearly NH tri nations would sort this out and help wales and france bridge the gap!

Doesn't matter about attendances its about player development.

Play one game in each country. Which would help sell the game!

[paulwalker71]

Bizarrely, wouldn't actually take much to create the space for a full International programme. We'd just need to lose the utterly pointless 'Super 8' series, reduce the season to a 23 game league + Top 4 (or 5) play-offs, and you'd instantly create about 5-6 'free' weekends that could be used for Internationals.

 

The question is: Would the chairmen of the SL clubs agree? And I think we all know the answer

 

Until that circle is squared, we'll be having this exact same debate in 12 months time when we crash out the World Cup at the inevitable semi-final stage.

[Colin James]

Agree with the OP and been saying it for ages. We do not take the England team seriously and for some reason expect different results. We should either put serious effort into it with more matches and regular training camps or give up altogether because we will never improve if we rely on SL producing players that are so good they can beat Australia by rocking up to the ground having not seen each other for 12 months.

The number one thing we can do to promote the sport in this country is have a winning England team. It would bring so much to the game. It's been shown that development officers have a limited impact and once they leave an area the sport leaves with them. I'd throw everything at England over the next World Cup cycle. I'd really recommmend Phil Larder's book on how they turned the RU team from also-rans into world champions. Yeah they had some world class players and leaders in Johnson and Wilkinson but the main thing that struck me is how they built as a team. They met at every opportunity with Woodward on occasion spending his own money to get the best hotels and facilities for his team. The contrast with our approach is stark. Interestingly the RFU and clubs felt the balance of power and money had gone too far to Team England and dismantled it with results following out of the window.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Bizarrely, wouldn't actually take much to create the space for a full International programme. We'd just need to lose the utterly pointless 'Super 8' series, reduce the season to a 23 game league + Top 4 (or 5) play-offs, and you'd instantly create about 5-6 'free' weekends that could be used for Internationals.

 

The question is: Would the chairmen of the SL clubs agree? And I think we all know the answer

 

Until that circle is squared, we'll be having this exact same debate in 12 months time when we crash out the World Cup at the inevitable semi-final stage.

 

 

To be blunt and fair to the club chairmen, can they financially afford to lose 2-3 home fixtures?  Its easy to say play less, but its a decent part of a clubs income.

[paulwalker71]

To be blunt and fair to the club chairmen, can they financially afford to lose 2-3 home fixtures?  Its easy to say play less, but its a decent part of a clubs income.

 

 

That's the circle that will need squaring

 

But if we don't, we should just get used to being 3rd best in a three team competition 

[joe elliot]

We all know what needs to happen, 5 nations every year, no rule changes, just as many internationals as we can get and stick with the one sided ones. Look at Italy and Argentina in Union. It's not rocket science it just takes backbone and foresight which the current RFL board don't seem to have.

All professional clubs act out of self interest so why is the fate of rugby keague in they're hands

[Exiled Wiganer]

We will have a mid season test against Samoa and at least one, probably 2 warm up games before the World Cup where we can except to play 5 games.

Similarly there will be a mid season international window every year for the next 8 years.

We will similarly play at least 4 games at the end of the year in the 4 yearly 8 team competition.

I don't know if 6 tests a year is enough absent SoO. It better had be...

[Scubby]

We will have a mid season test against Samoa and at least one, probably 2 warm up games before the World Cup where we can except to play 5 games.

Similarly there will be a mid season international window every year for the next 8 years.

We will similarly play at least 4 games at the end of the year in the 4 yearly 8 team competition.

I don't know if 6 tests a year is enough absent SoO. It better had be...

 

I hope this is now the norm. For 3 of the last 4 years (2013, 2015, 2016) we have been trying out half backs as we went along. It has shown in the results.

[jim_57]

Pretty basic structure that could do all teams a world of good.

June-July

England, Wales, France tri-series. One home game each, rotated every year and played at ambitious venues, Aiming for 20k+ in England, 10-20k France, 8-15k Wales.

NZ V England - Gives both teams a hitout whilst Australia is off playing with their favorite toy.

October

France V England - Return fixture

[Tommygilf]

Pretty basic structure that could do all teams a world of good.

June-July

England, Wales, France tri-series. One home game each, rotated every year and played at ambitious venues, Aiming for 20k+ in England, 10-20k France, 8-15k Wales.

NZ V England - Gives both teams a hitout whilst Australia is off playing with their favorite toy.

October

France V England - Return fixture

The underlying issue here is that Australia don't seem to care enough about international RL. They seem to be making some good noises atm but who knows. Mal seems to appreciate the benefit and importance of international RL but whether that translates into anything who can say.

If the approach of Australia wanting a "fallow" season for their players every 4 years continues then I say fine! A 4 or even 8 nations of England NZ France Wales Fiji PNG Scotland Samoa would be better for international RL anyway.

England should, and Bennett or betts or peacock or whoever is in charge should put their foot down and make a selection of internationals against Wales, France, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, USA, Canada and Jamaica a must for future years. I think Kev Brown looked out of his depth a bit today, but throwing him in against Australia in a must win game was unfair. If however we'd played Wales, Scotland and France some time mid season we may have had some ability to assess his strengths and weaknesses internationally. Its not as of these would be just nice jollies, France were better at home and Scotland were a good test in Coventry.

It also would give more games for the RFL to play with in terms of spread across the country.

[nonbelievers]

I posted in another thread.....England need regular games against the Pacific Islands. It's a sad reflection of where we are, but regular hammerings of the weaker European nations isn't doing anyone any good......

[M j M]

To be blunt and fair to the club chairmen, can they financially afford to lose 2-3 home fixtures?  Its easy to say play less, but its a decent part of a clubs income.

And it's a lot more than the clubs losing a bit of gate money, the game's major sponsor will come looking for a very large, potentially proportional, rebate on the seven weekends, 21 games, live tv games they had expected to be covering live.

I know it's easy to paint the sport as being run by short sighted, tight fisted, hard nosed club chairmen. But there is the ideal world and the world in which we have to live - a world where the financial realities are that less games does mean less income for the clubs who actually pay the players wages. We can work to change that fact but we can't just dismiss it.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

A yearly NH tri nations would sort this out and help wales and france bridge the gap!

Doesn't matter about attendances its about player development.

Play one game in each country. Which would help sell the game!

France and Wales wouldn't be full strength unless at the end of the season or during a larger international window, so it would be a massacre. No player development there.