More internationals to be played in Liverpool

[flyingking]

That is Liverpool the suburb in Sydney, Latin Heat have announced a bumper day of international matches for February 4th

 

https://www.facebook.com/LatinAmericanRugbyLeague/posts/677796039056629:0

[Pulga]

Can't wait!

 

Should be a good day!

 

[Evil Homer]

Who are the Hungary and Poland teams? Are they affiliated with the sport in those countries or just a bunch of local guys with heritage? It's good that these games are happening but I wish the Heat wouldn't muddy the waters like this between legit international matches and Sydney-based heritage teams.

[Pulga]

Who are the Hungary and Poland teams? Are they affiliated with the sport in those countries or just a bunch of local guys with heritage? It's good that these games are happening but I wish the Heat wouldn't muddy the waters like this between legit international matches and Sydney-based heritage teams.

I don't understand this logic.

The rules are the same for everyone.

And it's not like the Sydney based players are taking spots off the domestic players.

[yanto]

I don't understand this logic.

The rules are the same for everyone.

And it's not like the Sydney based players are taking spots off the domestic players.

But calling them "Internationals" when they are likely to be 100% Aussies based heritage players is maybe wrong.

Do they have contact with the League Federations in Poland and Hungary ?

 

Have the RLEF /IRLF sanctioned these games ??

Have the Polish RL or Hungary RL sanctioned these games ?

 

Representative games yes ....and good to see.

International games a big NO in my opinion.

 

Imagine 15 Polish guys getting together in England and playing an "International" on the same day and then a sanctioned International going on in Warsaw at the same....now that could cause confusion with THREE Polish International games taking place at the same time in three different countries.!!!!

 

You just can not have any teams springing up and claiming to be "International teams".

[MatthewWoody]

I don't understand this logic.

The rules are the same for everyone.

And it's not like the Sydney based players are taking spots off the domestic players.

This.

[yanto]

This.

OK your an Italian (I think)....Two federations have had their disputes over the years in Italy...how complicated would it become if an Italian team full of heritage players set up in the UK ,ignored both federations in Italy and went around calling themselves "Italy" and playing Internationals with out any of these games being sanctioned by any governing body ??

 

Then a group of New York Italians set up a team and played Internationals against USA Jamacia etc etc AS "Italy" without any sanctioning from any governing bodies??

 

Will the REAL Italian International team please stand up and the other Italian REPRESENTATIVE teams align with the Italian Federation (Whoever that may be).

 

Now can you see the confusion of representative teams classing themselves as International sides?? (and there is nothing wrong with that if they advertise themselves as Rep sides) 

[Pulga]

But calling them "Internationals" when they are likely to be 100% Aussies based heritage players is maybe wrong.

Do they have contact with the League Federations in Poland and Hungary ?

 

Have the RLEF /IRLF sanctioned these games ??

Have the Polish RL or Hungary RL sanctioned these games ?

 

Representative games yes ....and good to see.

International games a big NO in my opinion.

 

Imagine 15 Polish guys getting together in England and playing an "International" on the same day and then a sanctioned International going on in Warsaw at the same....now that could cause confusion with THREE Polish International games taking place at the same time in three different countries.!!!!

 

You just can not have any teams springing up and claiming to be "International teams".

 

I can't speak for them but I can speak for the Latin American nations.

 

I can't think of a single nation where the Australian based players aren't in contact with the domestic "organization". 

 

As long as they have a grandparent that is/was X nationality then it's above board.

 

You have to understand that these "organizations" normally have no money. The chances that there would be two games played on the same day is near none. 

I know some of the Thai boys are flying over for the game but can't tell you about the Poland and Hungary players.

 

I help organize mainly the El Salvador team. We have had to prove their heritage. The RLIF wants documents linking players to that nation. So, mainly birth certificates. Do you know how hard it is to gather 25 birth certificates from people from a war torn country? It's not easy.

If teams don't provide the documents for all player it isn't sanctioned and therefore doesn't count towards rankings. 

 

Chile has a good relationship with the guys on the ground in Chile. 

El Salvador has no domestic activity yet but we're working on it. 

Uruguay are the same. 

Various countries have various contacts on Latin American soil, ranging from start-up leagues to the Unions and government officials.

There is not one approach that suits every situation.  

[MatthewWoody]

OK your an Italian (I think)....Two federations have had their disputes over the years in Italy...how complicated would it become if an Italian team full of heritage players set up in the UK ,ignored both federations in Italy and went around calling themselves "Italy" and playing Internationals with out any of these games being sanctioned by any governing body ??

 

Then a group of New York Italians set up a team and played Internationals against USA Jamacia etc etc AS "Italy" without any sanctioning from any governing bodies??

 

Will the REAL Italian International team please stand up and the other Italian REPRESENTATIVE teams align with the Italian Federation (Whoever that may be).

 

Now can you see the confusion of representative teams classing themselves as International sides?? (and there is nothing wrong with that if they advertise themselves as Rep sides) 

You contradict yourself by talking about two Italian "federations" (there's only one, the other one is not recognised by any RL gov body) and then talking about confusion etc. 

There isn't any whoever, as there is the Italian RL Federation sanctioned by all RL governing bodies. 

 

If you make a point about avoiding confusion and forbidding anybody outside the real federation calling themself the National team, then don't feed this confusion while talking about Italy. 

[MatthewWoody]

I can't speak for them but I can speak for the Latin American nations.

 

I can't think of a single nation where the Australian based players aren't in contact with the domestic "organization". 

 

As long as they have a grandparent that is/was X nationality then it's above board.

 

You have to understand that these "organizations" normally have no money. The chances that there would be two games played on the same day is near none. 

I know some of the Thai boys are flying over for the game but can't tell you about the Poland and Hungary players.

 

[...]

There is not one approach that suits every situation.  

 

This. 

Spot on. 

Too often in this forum people forget what they're talking about. 

They forget money is an issue. 

[damp squib]

You contradict yourself by talking about two Italian "federations" (there's only one, the other one is not recognised by any RL gov body) and then talking about confusion etc.

There isn't any whoever, as there is the Italian RL Federation sanctioned by all RL governing bodies.

If you make a point about avoiding confusion and forbidding anybody outside the real federation calling themself the National team, then don't feed this confusion while talking about Italy.

You're ignoring his question. All he wants to know is that the Polish and Hungarian RL authorities (which are relatively active) are aware of these teams and have sanctioned them. I'm not sure why this should be controversial.

[MatthewWoody]

You're ignoring his question. All he wants to know is that the Polish and Hungarian RL authorities (which are relatively active) are aware of these teams and have sanctioned them. I'm not sure why this should be controversial.

It's not ignoring him. 

It's the contradiction in his post: he first claims we must be clear about the really sanctioned RL team and then says things like whoever or two federations about an issue RLIF and RLEF have cleared several times. 

Following his thought (witch I agree with), there isn't any whoever in Italy. 

[damp squib]

It's not ignoring him. 

It's the contradiction in his post: he first claims we must be clear about the really sanctioned RL team and then says things like whoever or two federations about an issue RLIF and RLEF have cleared several times. 

Following his thought (witch I agree with), there isn't any whoever in Italy. 

 

Right, so in order to avoid another situation like the Italian one where the RLIF have to clarify, it would be good to know that these games have the blessing of the only official governing body of RL in those countries.

[MEXICO WILL PAY]

Another farcical situation, and then people wonder why international RL isn't taken seriously.

[MatthewWoody]

Right, so in order to avoid another situation like the Italian one where the RLIF have to clarify, it would be good to know that these games have the blessing of the only official governing body of RL in those countries.

Yes and I can't see why the official bodies shouldn't give their approval.

Having heritage people (sponsors, supporta etc) involved down under is essential.

[Evil Homer]

Yes and I can't see why the official bodies shouldn't give their approval.

Having heritage people (sponsors, supporta etc) involved down under is essential.

 

Yes, it's fine, it's great, good on them. But it's a constitutional issue. I live in a town with plenty of Eastern European immigration, if I wanted to I could probably assemble a bunch of guys from say Lithuania and get them to play as a national team. If I do that, is that the official Lithuania national team? Do I have the right to ownership of the sport in Lithuania? If someone actually on the ground in Lithuania wants to start up RL do they have to run it by me? It just causes a strange and potentially awkward situation which would be completely avoided if I just described it as what it is, which is a Lithuanian XIII, rather than a legit national team.

 

I don't believe the people involved with the Heat and the heritage players have any type of bad intentions or anything but the best interests of the sport at heart. By all means support the game and the startup organizations in those countries. But billing these matches as legit internationals is counter-productive especially when you have actual international bodies in some of these countries that will almost certainly not be involved with this in any way. It's like if me and a bunch of English guys in Sydney started calling ourselves the England national team. Technically we would meet all the requirements and would not be taking away spots from any other English players, as you said. But we clearly would not be the England national team or have anything to do with them.

[Pulga]

Yes, it's fine, it's great, good on them. But it's a constitutional issue. I live in a town with plenty of Eastern European immigration, if I wanted to I could probably assemble a bunch of guys from say Lithuania and get them to play as a national team. If I do that, is that the official Lithuania national team? Do I have the right to ownership of the sport in Lithuania? If someone actually on the ground in Lithuania wants to start up RL do they have to run it by me? It just causes a strange and potentially awkward situation which would be completely avoided if I just described it as what it is, which is a Lithuanian XIII, rather than a legit national team.

 

If they are the only Lithuanians playing then yes, they are the national team.

If there was league being played domestically then there would be communication on whether or not they're legit. It's not black and white.

 

Chile, for example, played first in Australia with Australian based players and then have played a nines tournament in Argentina with domestic players. Nobody thinks the other is less legitimate. Nobody is losing their position in either squad to the other and everyone is happy. 

 

Maybe, just maybe, there may be a problem in the future but really I don't see it happening.

Domestic comps are everyone's Holy Grail though. We're all working for the same goal. And to get there there is no specific way that works.

 

To be an RLIF member you need a to have a Not For Profit set up in that country and a bank account. And that's just observer status.

 

 

I don't believe the people involved with the Heat and the heritage players have any type of bad intentions or anything but the best interests of the sport at heart. By all means support the game and the startup organizations in those countries. But billing these matches as legit internationals is counter-productive especially when you have actual international bodies in some of these countries that will almost certainly not be involved with this in any way. It's like if me and a bunch of English guys in Sydney started calling ourselves the England national team. Technically we would meet all the requirements and would not be taking away spots from any other English players, as you said. But we clearly would not be the England national team or have anything to do with them.

 

If you had the approval of the RFL that's fine.

I'm not aware of any of these countries doing what your example said. They are all, at the very least, in touch with the domestic leadership. Unless you have proof otherwise that I don't know of.

 

[Evil Homer]

I'm not aware of any of these countries doing what your example said. They are all, at the very least, in touch with the domestic leadership. Unless you have proof otherwise that I don't know of.

I'm not saying they aren't. I'm just saying it's a constitutional issue for them to claim to be national teams when they are clearly not. If I started a Lithuanian team it would not be the Lithuania national team, it would be a bunch of Lithuanian guys in England. I can have no claim to be representing the sport in Lithuania because there is no activity there and I've never been there. Yes, it may lead to future domestic growth and that's great if so, but that doesn't mean it can claim to be a full international team as things stand. And yes, it may not make any difference practically at this stage but that's not the point, especially when it's so easily avoidable just by adding "XIII" to the end of the team's name and dropping the pretense of them being full international teams. They are heritage teams based in Australia. Nobody is going to think any less of the event and it's not going to lose anything by advertising itself as what it actually is instead of the bizarre claim of being a full international which, as you say, cannot be achieved by RLIF definition without a presence in the country.

[Pulga]

I'm not saying they aren't. I'm just saying it's a constitutional issue for them to claim to be national teams when they are clearly not. If I started a Lithuanian team it would not be the Lithuania national team, it would be a bunch of Lithuanian guys in England. I can have no claim to be representing the sport in Lithuania because there is no activity there and I've never been there. Yes, it may lead to future domestic growth and that's great if so, but that doesn't mean it can claim to be a full international team as things stand.

 

There is no way to differentiate them though.

Let's say that hypothetically that Lithuania did have something going on domestically and the team they picked was the exact team you fielded in England. A little bit of paperwork doesn't mean anything.

 

You can't exclude anyone just because they live abroad. 

Look at the Aussie soccer team. Only 3 players actually live in Australia. Nobody bats an eyelid. 

 

 

And yes, it may not make any difference practically at this stage but that's not the point, especially when it's so easily avoidable just by adding "XIII" to the end of the team's name and dropping the pretense of them being full international teams. They are heritage teams based in Australia. Nobody is going to think any less of the event and it's not going to lose anything by advertising itself as what it actually is instead of the bizarre claim of being a full international which, as you say, cannot be achieved by RLIF definition without a presence in the country.

 

No, you've missed the point. 

You can have a fully sanctioned test match without having observer status. As long as everyone's link to the country is established.

 

As long as there is due diligence done and everyone is happy then it's fine.

A few nations have warring bodies with varying degrees of legitimacy but none of the teams playing on February 4 as far as I know.  

[Evil Homer]

There is no way to differentiate them though.

Let's say that hypothetically that Lithuania did have something going on domestically and the team they picked was the exact team you fielded in England. A little bit of paperwork doesn't mean anything.

 

You can't exclude anyone just because they live abroad. 

Look at the Aussie soccer team. Only 3 players actually live in Australia. Nobody bats an eyelid.

 

It's nothing to do with that. It's to do with the fact that you can't have a bunch of different bodies or groups of people going around claiming to be the national team and organizing national team fixtures. The actual make-up of the teams is irrelevant, what matters is that we have 'international' matches being organized by groups who are not the officially sanctioned body and so are effectively a rogue organization (even if they mean well). It's a moot point because official bodies don't exist in most of the countries related to the Latin Heat and so there aren't any practical issues right now, but that still doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. And once again, there's nothing gained by them doing this. It's just muddying the waters, causing constitutional issues and stirring up ill feeling for no reason.

[Pulga]

It's nothing to do with that. It's to do with the fact that you can't have a bunch of different bodies or groups of people going around claiming to be the national team and organizing national team fixtures. The actual make-up of the teams is irrelevant, what matters is that we have 'international' matches being organized by groups who are not the officially sanctioned body and so are effectively a rogue organization (even if they mean well). It's a moot point because official bodies don't exist in most of the countries related to the Latin Heat and so there aren't any practical issues right now, but that still doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. And once again, there's nothing gained by them doing this. It's just muddying the waters, causing constitutional issues and stirring up ill feeling for no reason.

 

At the risk of repeating myself: What mythical "bodies" are you talking about?

Where there is domestic activity, everyone is in agreement. Where there isn't , there's no toes to stand on.

There is no "ill feeling" amongst anyone. There are no "rogues". 

Everyone is in agreement and there's no evidence that they aren't.

[Evil Homer]

At the risk of repeating myself: What mythical "bodies" are you talking about?

Where there is domestic activity, everyone is in agreement. Where there isn't , there's no toes to stand on.

There is no "ill feeling" amongst anyone. There are no "rogues". 

Everyone is in agreement and there's no evidence that they aren't.

 

The RLEF-affiliated bodies in Hungary and Poland are certainly not mythical. I've already said numerous times that there is no ill feeling amongst the people involved with the Latin Heat or the teams involved, the ill feeling is among the wider community including at least half the people that have contributed to this thread, all of whom are international RL enthusiasts who would be wanting this venture to succeed as much as anyone. I've explained this situation quite clearly to you, it would help if you actually read my posts here rather than ignoring the issue as you have done repeatedly.

 

The Latin Heat are totally within their rights to create these teams and stage these matches. Australians of Polish or Hungarian descent are perfectly within their rights to form teams based on that and play against whoever they want. That's great and I would encourage them to do that. They don't have to ask permission from anyone. Just don't pretend that it's the official national team when it's not. People would respect you a hell of a lot more and take you a lot more seriously if you stopped doing this.

[MatthewWoody]

As long as the local (Polish etc) federations recognized them, I don't see any problem.

They'll increase interest Upon the heritage community down under and maybe improve their capacity to attract sponsorship and resources, to be then spent on the local game in part.

[Pulga]

Exactly this.

Poland and Hungary may not have fictional organisations but this apparent wrongdoing is.

Where's the evidence that these guys aren't 100% backed by the domestic organisations?

Right now it's completely made up.

[damp squib]

As long as the local (Polish etc) federations recognized them, I don't see any problem.

 

That's all anyone was asking in the first place! Somebody asked if these teams were recognized by the official bodies. Nobody seems to know. Evil Homer points out that it would be bad if they're not. You and Pulga jump down his throat as if he's attacking the people involved. Jesus.