Hemel Stags

[DoubleD]

14 minutes ago, bowes said:

Southend Invicta are the only pro club comparatively bad in modern times. There were probably worse pro clubs pre WW2

Really? I would say both Blackpool and Gateshead had seasons in recent times which have been equally as bad if not worse. 

[bowes]

11 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

Really? I would say both Blackpool and Gateshead had seasons in recent times which have been equally as bad if not worse. 

Yes but when you factor in sub 100 crowds and training 170 miles away from their home ground they're worse off

[DEANO]

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

They run foundations to back the local amateur clubs by introducing the game to as many kids as possible, look up the work of the SL club foundations. They then take kids on scholarships at 16 and they put them through the academies, so the amateur game and pro game are hand in hand on development.

York City Knights and Dewsbury Rams do not do this.

York may have once started an academy team with Fev, Fax etc but as I say that was with a view to meeting the standards to get an SL place. They do not run these things now.

Don't think Yorkhave ever had sl aspirations. When they ran this team there wasn't even any promotion into the promised land

[Rach]

2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

They run foundations to back the local amateur clubs by introducing the game to as many kids as possible, look up the work of the SL club foundations. They then take kids on scholarships at 16 and they put them through the academies, so the amateur game and pro game are hand in hand on development.

York City Knights and Dewsbury Rams do not do this.

York may have once started an academy team with Fev, Fax etc but as I say that was with a view to meeting the standards to get an SL place. They do not run these things now.

Go back five or 6 years and clubs like York Dewsbury and my club Keighley were running Academy's and Scholarship schemes to attract junior talent that run successfully for many a year until the RFL decided in their infinite wisdom that lower League Clubs shouldn't be actually allowed to be trusted to actually produce their own players and effectively banned them from operating such schemes ..

At least of 5 of the current Cougar First Team (Buster Feather , Josh Lynam , Ben Sagar ,Sean Kelly, Matt Bailey  ) all came through the scholarship , Both of the Walker brothers began as 12 year olds with the Cougars , and I can think of 4 or 5 others dotted around League 1 that are ex Cougar Scholars . Joe Lumb and Ethan Ryan from the Bulls began their Pro Careers as 17 year olds in the Youth set up along with current Cougars Winger Andy Gabriel Even for the Local  Game there was a knock on effect as effect as the players who didn't make the Pro Ranks carried playing back into Amateur Ranks .

Scholarship didn't just produce higher quality players but also Coaches as well , upskilling Club Coaches and giving them chances to work at a higher level

[The Parksider]

24 minutes ago, Rach said:

Go back five or 6 years and clubs like York Dewsbury and my club Keighley were running Academy's and Scholarship schemes to attract junior talent that run successfully for many a year until the RFL decided in their infinite wisdom that lower League Clubs shouldn't be actually allowed to be trusted to actually produce their own players and effectively banned them from operating such schemes ..

At least of 5 of the current Cougar First Team (Buster Feather , Josh Lynam , Ben Sagar ,Sean Kelly, Matt Bailey  ) all came through the scholarship , Both of the Walker brothers began as 12 year olds with the Cougars , and I can think of 4 or 5 others dotted around League 1 that are ex Cougar Scholars . Joe Lumb and Ethan Ryan from the Bulls began their Pro Careers as 17 year olds in the Youth set up along with current Cougars Winger Andy Gabriel Even for the Local  Game there was a knock on effect as effect as the players who didn't make the Pro Ranks carried playing back into Amateur Ranks .

Scholarship didn't just produce higher quality players but also Coaches as well , upskilling Club Coaches and giving them chances to work at a higher level

 

Many thanks for that, Where did the clubs get the 17 YO players from when this was running??

Do you know on what basis the RFL did not approve??

[The Parksider]

1 hour ago, DEANO said:

Don't think Yorkhave ever had sl aspirations. When they ran this team there wasn't even any promotion into the promised land

 

Yes York suprised me, but I do remember Featherstone running the academy during their "Build for Superleague" period.

[The Parksider]

2 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Really? I would say Blackpool. 

 

Well you can look these things up.

Blackpool Panthers came 5th, in 2009 on crowds of 500 before their demise. Gateshead didn't win a game in 2011 but were on 300 crowds and maybe they would have gone but for the takeover.

As I understand it however these clubs had no central funding yet Hemel do have that but their record is sadly appalling.

Don't you think it would be more positive, and that they would do a heck of a lot better, if they got back to being Hemel Stags  ARLFC one of the top amateur clubs outside the north, and a credit to the game??

Why would you want to keep them as Pro's just because another failed club once did worse??

[Dr Tim Whatley]

8 hours ago, bowes said:

Southend Invicta are the only pro club comparatively bad in modern times. There were probably worse pro clubs pre WW2

From (near) Southend and now live in Hemel.

I can sure pick 'em!

[Bearman]

57 minutes ago, Dr Tim Whatley said:

From (near) Southend and now live in Hemel.

I can sure pick 'em!

Have you thought it might be you? ?

[Rach]

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Many thanks for that, Where did the clubs get the 17 YO players from when this was running??

Do you know on what basis the RFL did not approve??

The players from Keighley came mainly from the Cougar Cubs , a ridiculously successful Amateur Junior Club which was started initially when Joe Grima moved to Cougar Park from Widnes and got caught up in the groundswell of Cougarmania , the Cubs in their heyday had teams from 7s through to National Youth League 18s . As an example I coached 7s through to 11s through the late 90s , at mini level I could have had 3 separate teams on the pitch much was the popularity of RL in the town at that point .

As well as the Cubs Players came from the Bradford Clubs through Service Area  mainly kids who the Bulls choose to overlook , mainly cause at 12 or 13 years old they were not 6 foot Giants ( see Karl Pryce for details) . and at that point  natural body development was seen as an imperative to signing players for SL....###### if they could actually catch a ball :-(

I'd assume that the RFLs objection was along the lines of Championship / League 1 cant be seen to be doing better than SL so we'll just tell em all that they are banned whatever ...

My nephew plus a a good bunch of my U7s came through the Scholarship at Keighley , it was an awesome system , the boys were never taken away from their amateur teams but got good quality coaching that cascaded down to their other clubmates , their was a lack of kids lost to the game at 14/15 (Girls n Beer syndrome ) as there was always the chance of that they could turn Pro and  as we were a PT Club much emphasis  was put on regular positive school reports for the boys , if you ###### about learning you were booted , no argument :-)

 

All good but hey SL knows best ...my ###### ..

 

[yipyee]

10 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Well you can look these things up.

Blackpool Panthers came 5th, in 2009 on crowds of 500 before their demise. Gateshead didn't win a game in 2011 but were on 300 crowds and maybe they would have gone but for the takeover.

As I understand it however these clubs had no central funding yet Hemel do have that but their record is sadly appalling.

Don't you think it would be more positive, and that they would do a heck of a lot better, if they got back to being Hemel Stags  ARLFC one of the top amateur clubs outside the north, and a credit to the game??

Why would you want to keep them as Pro's just because another failed club once did worse??

Why state that no club has done worse as a point and when someone proves you wrong say it doesnt matter...

If it doesnt matter why bring it up in the first place.

Also you cant say the RFL do nothing for expansion but when they centrally fund expansion teams slag them off for doing so.

I agree hemel have lost their way....however one issue for expansion areas is the best semi pro players can go and get a match fee playing union so if league dont pay a match fee they would be developing players to see them go to one of several union clubs who pay match fees....

[The Parksider]

10 hours ago, Rach said:

The players from Keighley came mainly from the Cougar Cubs , a ridiculously successful Amateur Junior Club which was started initially when Joe Grima moved to Cougar Park from Widnes and got caught up in the groundswell of Cougarmania , the Cubs in their heyday had teams from 7s through to National Youth League 18s . As an example I coached 7s through to 11s through the late 90s , at mini level I could have had 3 separate teams on the pitch much was the popularity of RL in the town at that point .

 

Many thanks for this reminder of the Cougarmania days............

[The Parksider]

8 hours ago, yipyee said:

Why state that no club has done worse as a point and when someone proves you wrong say it doesnt matter...If it doesnt matter why bring it up in the first place.

3

I wasn't proved wrong, Gateshead didn't win matches playing in (1) a much stronger league 1 in which most opponents were M62 clubs. Hemel can win an odd match  (2) because they have games against clubs who are also very weak. Deal with this?

Look the respective league tables up and the respective oppositions. (Swinton and Donny were just above Gateshead) Hemel clearly are much poorer than Gateshead were. Their only win came against a very poor south wales.

Also look and see how the removal of Gateshead at that time would have (3) left the other clubs with only 20 fixtures. CC1 today has more clubs than it needs and they end up playing each other once during the regular season.

Gateshead in the end (4) picked up the tie-in with Newcastle Falcons so in retrospect another good reason to have left them in. Do you think that Hemel will get an offer of a tie up with Saracens or Harlequins??

Also look up the (5) North East Junior ARL as well a tidy little league which the RFL may well have reckoned Gatesheads removal would have had a detrimental effect on.

You and Mr D. may want to make the simplistic argument Gateshead won no matches once and Hemel won one last year so Hemel are far the better club but there is far more to it than that.

Once again (6) Gateshead used their own bona fide team and didn't contract it out to a training base in Dewsbury like Hemel, another fact conveniently sidelined to score a point..

You both leave so much out of the reality of that comparison...........

[The Parksider]

8 hours ago, yipyee said:

(1) you cant say the RFL do nothing for expansion but when they centrally fund expansion teams slag them off for doing so.

(2) I agree hemel have lost their way....however one issue for expansion areas is the best semi pro players can go and get a match fee playing union so if league dont pay a match fee they would be developing players to see them go to one of several union clubs who pay match fees....

5

(1) My point is that the RFL are funding "expansion" clubs, but some are not expanding, so this is on a pure business point a waste of money. I haven't "slagged the RFL off" I have raised the issue that had Hemel  not been funded by SKY money they would have gone as a pro club. The RFL is funding failure.

The RFL is paying for a training base in Dewsbury. 

(2) I do not get this at all?? Surely the fact that Hemel semi pro players have been elbowed aside for Dewsbury based M62 players makes your point irrelevant?

The question remains for those arguing for Hemel to carry on like this is would it not be better to assist them to go back to being a top notch southern amateur club?

Or is this 60 year plus obsession with planting these professional acorns at the bottom of the Rugby League and waiting for "organic growth" that never comes everything? .

 

 

 

[Yorkie44]

23 hours ago, The Parksider said:

They run foundations to back the local amateur clubs by introducing the game to as many kids as possible, look up the work of the SL club foundations. They then take kids on scholarships at 16 and they put them through the academies, so the amateur game and pro game are hand in hand on development.

York City Knights and Dewsbury Rams do not do this.

York may have once started an academy team with Fev, Fax etc but as I say that was with a view to meeting the standards to get an SL place. They do not run these things now.

Now are you sure York Knights don't do that? And they haven't introduced players in to the squad through it? 

I will let you investigate that as I know the answer and I've got a terrible hangover from our clubs fantastic sporting dinner and I don't feel like suffering fools today.

[Blind side johnny]

3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

I wasn't proved wrong, .....

.....ever!

Don't waste your time with Parky, he just keeps moving the goalposts.

[yipyee]

3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

I wasn't proved wrong, Gateshead didn't win matches playing in (1) a much stronger league 1 in which most opponents were M62 clubs. Hemel can win an odd match  (2) because they have games against clubs who are also very weak. Deal with this?

Look the respective league tables up and the respective oppositions. (Swinton and Donny were just above Gateshead) Hemel clearly are much poorer than Gateshead were. Their only win came against a very poor south wales.

Also look and see how the removal of Gateshead at that time would have (3) left the other clubs with only 20 fixtures. CC1 today has more clubs than it needs and they end up playing each other once during the regular season.

Gateshead in the end (4) picked up the tie-in with Newcastle Falcons so in retrospect another good reason to have left them in. Do you think that Hemel will get an offer of a tie up with Saracens or Harlequins??

Also look up the (5) North East Junior ARL as well a tidy little league which the RFL may well have reckoned Gatesheads removal would have had a detrimental effect on.

You and Mr D. may want to make the simplistic argument Gateshead won no matches once and Hemel won one last year so Hemel are far the better club but there is far more to it than that.

Once again (6) Gateshead used their own bona fide team and didn't contract it out to a training base in Dewsbury like Hemel, another fact conveniently sidelined to score a point..

You both leave so much out of the reality of that comparison...........

Didnt leave out that hemel have lost their way, didnt forsee newcastle buying Gateshead so its plausible a union club might buy hemel...

Didnt forsee wasps trying to parachute a SL club into coventry....

 

I wouldnt have wanted gateshead removed.

I dont want hemel removed

I do think the league is too big but killing clubs isnt the answer.... splitting the league in 2 would sort out lots of issues.... but that would relegate Hunslet and keighthly to the fourth tier so would be unpopular with the cappers...

[yipyee]

3 hours ago, The Parksider said:

(1) My point is that the RFL are funding "expansion" clubs, but some are not expanding, so this is on a pure business point a waste of money. I haven't "slagged the RFL off" I have raised the issue that had Hemel  not been funded by SKY money they would have gone as a pro club. The RFL is funding failure.

The RFL is paying for a training base in Dewsbury. 

(2) I do not get this at all?? Surely the fact that Hemel semi pro players have been elbowed aside for Dewsbury based M62 players makes your point irrelevant?

The question remains for those arguing for Hemel to carry on like this is would it not be better to assist them to go back to being a top notch southern amateur club?

Or is this 60 year plus obsession with planting these professional acorns at the bottom of the Rugby League and waiting for "organic growth" that never comes everything? .

 

 

 

By the same point the RFL are paying swinton to not play in swinton, sheffield to not play in sheffield, Leeds second team at hunslet, etc...should these clubs reduce to be amateur clubs?

Or is your agenda anti-expansion?

Not every team will progress to SL but gateshead kept bobbing along the bottom and are doing ok now... it doesnt matter on the catalyst the FACT is they would not be where they are now if they joined the amateur leagues!

[terrywebbisgod]

4 minutes ago, yipyee said:

By the same point the RFL are paying swinton to not play in swinton, sheffield to not play in sheffield, Leeds second team at hunslet, etc...should these clubs reduce to be amateur clubs?

Or is your agenda anti-expansion?

Not every team will progress to SL but gateshead kept bobbing along the bottom and are doing ok now... it doesnt matter on the catalyst the FACT is they would not be where they are now if they joined the amateur leagues!

Leeds no longer have a DR with Hunslet.Just pointing that out for you.

[The Parksider]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

.....ever!

Don't waste your time with Parky, he just keeps moving the goalposts.

Come on grow up. Point out where the reasoned logic I set out is wrong.

[yipyee]

Just now, terrywebbisgod said:

Leeds no longer have a DR with Hunslet.Just pointing that out for you.

Thanks,

But they did which is only the process Hemel are going through...they too are finding it a useless tool.

My point is that criticism is only being thrown at an expansion club...

[The Parksider]

2 hours ago, Yorkie44 said:

Now are you sure York Knights don't do that? I will let you investigate that as I know the answer and I've got a terrible hangover from our clubs fantastic sporting dinner and I don't feel like suffering fools today.

You have my answer that the SL clubs run staffed foundations that are backed by a lot of SKY money allocated from the contract, that encourages local RL directly and from that pool of players Leeds run scholarships and academies.

York don't do that. That is not to disparage York keighley or Dewsbury.

[Tre Cool]

I think it's reasonable when you're a new club relying on central funding that you should have targets to meet if you want to keep the funding.  If you aren't meeting the targets you should at the least have a short and medium turn plan to turn it around and improve.  Now I have no idea if the RFL have such demands but I can't see much coming from Oxford or Hemel that fills me with hope, and I don't see value for money from where I'm sat.  Coventry and All Golds are progressive and positive, they engage the local community / councils / businesses / fans / players and market themselves in a positive and progressive way.  I'm not sure about All Golds attendances this year, but Coventry seem to do well on this side of things too.

Hemel's performance seems poor in most of these areas, which is a shame from a town and club that produced Sarginson and Dixon.

Fine they're having a bad run of things at the moment but what are they doing to improve / change?  That's what I'd like to know.  Moving to Dewsbury to improve performance on the pitch has been a disaster so far, so what next? Anything?

[DoubleD]

11 minutes ago, Tre Cool said:

I think it's reasonable when you're a new club relying on central funding that you should have targets to meet if you want to keep the funding.  If you aren't meeting the targets you should at the least have a short and medium turn plan to turn it around and improve.  Now I have no idea if the RFL have such demands but I can't see much coming from Oxford or Hemel that fills me with hope, and I don't see value for money from where I'm sat.  Coventry and All Golds are progressive and positive, they engage the local community / councils / businesses / fans / players and market themselves in a positive and progressive way.  I'm not sure about All Golds attendances this year, but Coventry seem to do well on this side of things too.

Hemel's performance seems poor in most of these areas, which is a shame from a town and club that produced Sarginson and Dixon.

Fine they're having a bad run of things at the moment but what are they doing to improve / change?  That's what I'd like to know.  Moving to Dewsbury to improve performance on the pitch has been a disaster so far, so what next? Anything?

Why should it only be new clubs meeting such targets? All clubs should have to meet certain targets to receive central funding

[The Parksider]

25 minutes ago, yipyee said:

My point is that criticism is only being thrown at an expansion club...

No it's not, I personally have criticised the mess that all this has become. Hemel as I said and as you can read above are a great amateur club who achieved great things.

You say "By the same point the RFL are paying swinton to not play in swinton, sheffield to not play in sheffield, Leeds second team at hunslet, etc...(1) should these clubs reduce to be amateur clubs?"  (2) Or is your agenda anti-expansion?...

Firstly thank you for abstaining from the childish remarks and engaging in the debate.The thread is about Hemel, but here's my replies:-

1. I have often thought that clubs who are almost history now and have no way back, would provide more to the game as amateurs. However sheffield becoming amateur will only take away from Hillsborough Hawks, Swinton may only take away from Folly lane etc etc. Hunslet Parkside ARLFC may well  get a boost if they merged with Hunslet and played amateur from the South Leeds Stadium, but could they afford the rent? I doubt it. 

2. You have over 2,000 posts on here so you probably should know I'm ferevently expansionist, Toulouse, Les catalans, London Broncos, Celtic Crusaders and Newcastle are or were all great projects.

But not blindly expansionist. I am not interested in Toronto playing SL with all English teams, I'm not interested in Coventry in SL if they just buy a M62 team in and ignore RL development in Coventry. I am not interested in Hemel buying in a M62 team either. Equally I'm not traditionalist - I'd have voted to close Hunslet rather than be a DR club as well.

When you look at the Championship it's a complete mess with tiny new clubs who can't hardly win a game. big professional clubs who won't lose a game. Dual Reg clubs who can't afford their own squad, clubs with few fans going nowhere etc.

Yes in my head I'd probably cut a lot of clubs new and traditional out, and I'd pay more subsidy to less championship clubs so they can compete properly and survive and have a real chance to play and stay in SL, whilst any relegated club has a decent league to go to.

Thanks for asking and not insulting.