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Robin Evans

New centre party

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There are many on here who have expressed their dissatisfaction with the direction both Labour and the Tories are heading.

Tony Blair put Labour in that centre ground and wiped the floor with the Tories.. .. however history may view him he indeed proper took the Tories on and won.

Labour now is recognisable from 1997... some argue this is a good thing. Many don't.

The Tories lurch further to the right and represent all that is abhorrent to me .... and John m suggests mother Theresa should be congratulated.

So.... in the light of UK politics.... what price a centrist party "doing a macron"? 

A new party. A new voice that occupies the centre??? Could it happen in the UK or are we so seer in our ways we will just carry on?

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The system in France allows a Macron figure, in the UK you have to have a party and 400-650* candidates to have a chance.  

The party system allows safe seats too, another road block.

*You only need 300 odd seats to 'win' but you have to be competitive pretty much everywhere.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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Very difficult to see happen , the ground work needed and money is probably too big a barrier.


Homer: How is education supposed to make me feel smarter? Besides, every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home winemaking course, and I forgot how to drive?

[

i]Mr. Burns: Woah, slow down there maestro. There's a *New* Mexico?[/i]

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5 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

There are many on here who have expressed their dissatisfaction with the direction both Labour and the Tories are heading.

Tony Blair put Labour in that centre ground and wiped the floor with the Tories.. .. however history may view him he indeed proper took the Tories on and won.

Labour now is recognisable from 1997... some argue this is a good thing. Many don't.

The Tories lurch further to the right and represent all that is abhorrent to me .... and John m suggests mother Theresa should be congratulated.

So.... in the light of UK politics.... what price a centrist party "doing a macron"? 

A new party. A new voice that occupies the centre??? Could it happen in the UK or are we so seer in our ways we will just carry on?

In the UK, due to the electoral system I think it is less likely to work (though not impossible. This is in part because unlike in Presidential systems we never have a 1 v 1 situation where a new party could get through and succeed.

It happened with the SDP, I think its happening with UKIP, new parties in the UK tend to come in and influence the tories and Labour on their direction of travel whilst they reap the rewards of electoral security. Though much of our politics has been pretty centrist for the past 25 years I'd say.

It also depends on what you define as centre. Is that a third way type middle ground between conservative and Labour policy? Or an ideologically "Liberal movement"? The chances of this new party making headway without being hijacked by Tories or Labour is very slim indeed.

 

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I can't see a new party working, there only hope is to hijack an existing party and drag that back to the centre, which is very achievable as Momentum and UKIP have proved with the Labour and Conservative parties.

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In many ways UKIP prove how difficult it is to break through.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

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I think our electoral systems and the manner of our public discourse prevent it entirely.


Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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I'm happy enough with UK politics.... there is room for improvement on the electoral system.... but that another debate.

I'm just not happy the Labour party is going to get wiped and seemingly unable to arrest a surge to the right.

The sdp was indeed set up as a centrist alternative to a dysfunctional Labour party and never broke thru despite being able to portray themselves as all things to all men in different constituencies.

But 30 years on I did wonder if there is an appetite for such a leap in UK politics given Tory dominance and shift uncomfortably (for me at least) to the right

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3 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

There are many on here who have expressed their dissatisfaction with the direction both Labour and the Tories are heading.

Tony Blair put Labour in that centre ground and wiped the floor with the Tories.. .. however history may view him he indeed proper took the Tories on and won.

Labour now is recognisable from 1997... some argue this is a good thing. Many don't.

The Tories lurch further to the right and represent all that is abhorrent to me .... and John m suggests mother Theresa should be congratulated.

So.... in the light of UK politics.... what price a centrist party "doing a macron"? 

A new party. A new voice that occupies the centre??? Could it happen in the UK or are we so seer in our ways we will just carry on?

I think is someone like Alan Sugar or Richard Branson formed a centre party it would become very popular as people like these have a touch on reality unlike a lot of politicians.

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If Corbyn refuses to step down in June then it's an essential next step. If he steps down and is replaced by a younger clone then, again, it's an essential step. 

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"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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45 minutes ago, ckn said:

If Corbyn refuses to step down in June then it's an essential next step. If he steps down and is replaced by a younger clone then, again, it's an essential step. 

John McDonnell said on Marr yesterday that a (inevitable?) heavy defeat for Labour on June 8th would result in both him and Corbyn stepping down. As the left of the party have not been able to get the NEC to modify the nomination process it's highly unlikely that their supporters would get the level of support needed from the PLP to get one of their own on the next leadership ballot.


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

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Isn't  that where the Lib Dems sit? Neither left, right or popular.

 In theory they hey have the infrastructure to be viable opposition if not this time then certainly for the next general election. Perhaps another rebrand and makeover?

If I thought they were a genuine centrist party I would be attracted to them.

 

Edited by Bearman
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14 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

John McDonnell said on Marr yesterday that a (inevitable?) heavy defeat for Labour on June 8th would result in both him and Corbyn stepping down. As the left of the party have not been able to get the NEC to modify the nomination process it's highly unlikely that their supporters would get the level of support needed from the PLP to get one of their own on the next leadership ballot.

I think his idea of a heavy defeat is him and Jezza losing their seats.  The council chaos from last week was spun as "Not that bad really.  Look, we're not as bad as everyone said!"


"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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I posted this on another thread a few days ago -

Remember this headline of  pre-Brexit days - "Richard Branson's Virgin Group is to help bankroll a campaign set up in secret by Blairite former ministers and advisers to derail Brexit, The Independent can reveal." 

Well according to a report on one of the tv channels the other day, this group is still meeting, but they are not talking about Brexit anymore, according to a 'parliamentary source', they are looking at forming a new 'centrist Labour party' if and when Corbyn gets his bottom handed to him on a plate after the election.

Maybe they could call it something to reflect its newness, New Labour maybe!!!

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42 minutes ago, Griff9of13 said:

John McDonnell said on Marr yesterday that a (inevitable?) heavy defeat for Labour on June 8th would result in both him and Corbyn stepping down. As the left of the party have not been able to get the NEC to modify the nomination process it's highly unlikely that their supporters would get the level of support needed from the PLP to get one of their own on the next leadership ballot.

I watched this programme also and McDonnell refused point blank to confirm that both he and Corbyn would stand aside after a heavy defeat in the election ( Marr had just shown him a clip of a previous interview with himself in which he said " it would be inevitable that we would both have to stand down after a heavy defeat"

So much for honest straightforward politics.

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14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

In the UK, due to the electoral system I think it is less likely to work (though not impossible. This is in part because unlike in Presidential systems we never have a 1 v 1 situation where a new party could get through and succeed.

It happened with the SDP, I think its happening with UKIP, new parties in the UK tend to come in and influence the tories and Labour on their direction of travel whilst they reap the rewards of electoral security. Though much of our politics has been pretty centrist for the past 25 years I'd say.

It also depends on what you define as centre. Is that a third way type middle ground between conservative and Labour policy? Or an ideologically "Liberal movement"? The chances of this new party making headway without being hijacked by Tories or Labour is very slim indeed.

 

In early 1982, the SDP/Liberal Alliance looked like the next government.  Labour was imploding, Thatcher was the most unpopular PM since records began.  But "events" (to quote Macmillan) came to the Tories' rescue in the shape of the Argentine invasion of the Falklands.  After which Thatcher became incredibly popular, and all those Tories who were teetering on the edge of deserting their party and joining the new group, drew back, and the moment was past.  Labour too drew back from the edge, got rid of Foot after the '83 defeat, and in '87 saw off the Allilance. They were then on the road back to power.  But it was a long tortuous road.

Had it not been for the Falklands, I believe the Thatcher government would have fallen and the Alliance would have taken power, the new "realignment of the left" would have happened. 

There could be another moment I suppose, once the full horror of Brexit makes itself apparent.  But now is too early.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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15 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

There are many on here who have expressed their dissatisfaction with the direction both Labour and the Tories are heading.

 This forum is totally unrepresentative. It is predominantly left of centre and in no way reflects the views of the population at large. Not saying that it invalidates the views of those who express them on here, but as recent elections have shown, those views are not shared by the majority.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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12 hours ago, JohnM said:

 This forum is totally unrepresentative. It is predominantly left of centre and in no way reflects the views of the population at large. Not saying that it invalidates the views of those who express them on here, but as recent elections have shown, those views are not shared by the majority.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed this forum to be representative of anything, have they? It's just people arguing about stuff, it ain't pretending to be YouGov.

I've removed all the personal nonsense that followed this post.

Please, everyone, cut out the personals and stay on topic.

Thanks.


.

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44 minutes ago, John Drake said:

I don't think anyone has ever claimed this forum to be representative of anything, have they? It's just people arguing about stuff, it ain't pretending to be YouGov.

 

I know and understand that, John.  

It's important, though, in my opinion, to make it plain to readers  of this forum, (many more readers than posters and maybe now some from Canada) that the majority view on here does not hold nationally or even in some cases locally and that things here are not as some posters quaintly, intolerantly, repeatedly and insistently put it "sh 1te"

Edited by JohnM

Four legs good - two legs bad

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5 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I know and understand that, John.  

It's important, though, in my opinion, to make it plain to readers  of this forum, (many more readers than posters and maybe now some from Canada) that the majority view on here does not hold nationally or even in some cases locally and that things here are not as some posters quaintly, intolerantly, repeatedly and insistently put it "sh 1te"

The majority of posters probably are left wing, whatever that means these days, but I'm sure that you and others are able to stand your ground against all comers.

And how boring would it be if everyone always agreed with each other?

If there are any new browsers of this forum I'm sure we would all welcome them on board, regardless of their political stance.

On the subject of the thread, isn't there already a centre party?

Or is that not an accurate description of the Liberal Democrats.

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Maybe on average, but their policies are all over the place on the spectrum, in my view. True there is already a centre party, though, the one I support.


Four legs good - two legs bad

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Just now, JohnM said:

Maybe on average, but their policies are all over the place on the spectrum, in my view. True there is already a centre party, though, the one I support.

The current Tories are so far right wing that John Redwood seems, well, middle-of-the-road and Theresa May makes Maggie Thatcher's policies seem like a socialist paradise.  I think you're being deliberately silly now...

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"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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