Job hunting

[Derwent]

24 minutes ago, tonyXIII said:

When I was last in the UK, I did some teaching work through an agency. While I was at one school, I applied for a job there as a Maths teacher. It was politely pointed out to me that, if I got the job, the agency would demand an 'introduction fee' of at least £5000 from the school. I didn't get the job because I ballsed up the interview - I wouldn't have given myself the job, to be honest - but it certainly made me think twice about agencies.

 

£5k is cheap in the recruitment business. Some of the higher end agencies charge a one off fee to the employer of between 25 and 30% of the employee's total annual financial package. Employ somebody on £100k a year with a car and bonus etc and the fee can easily top £35k.

[Bob8]

I have just started looking around.

After hearing headhunters describe how valuable they can be if given a chance, I decided to give them a go.

My mistake.  They are still useless idiots. 

 

[Scubby]

On 11/08/2017 at 4:20 PM, Bob8 said:

I have just started looking around.

After hearing headhunters describe how valuable they can be if given a chance, I decided to give them a go.

My mistake.  They are still useless idiots. 

 

The head hunters always seem to have loads of great jobs available on Mad Men. Although, thinking about it, that may have been a while ago 

[ckn]

I have wasted almost the entire day on one job interview. A good job for a good company, with a slightly lower than I'd normally accept salary but the job itself was just what I was looking for.  The commute wasn't great either, but again I'd happily accept it.

I was the sole candidate being interviewed because they said no one else was even close to my skills and experience. It seemed almost as if I turned up and didn't screw up badly that the job was mine.

The interview started with "we have to let you know that the job salary isn't what we advertised, it's a fixed salary of (just over 60% of the lower original salary band and quoted, and 50% of the higher original band), we didn't tell you of this mistake in advance of the interview as we thought you wouldn't mind because of the rare privilege of working for a company like ours.  So, first question, tell us why you want to work for us?"

Me: "Are you serious about the pay 'mistake'?"

Them: "Yes, unfortunately. Also, bear in mind that that new job band doesn't come with health insurance either, and you have to work for three years to qualify for a training allowance."

Me: "Ok, to answer your question then: I no longer want to work for you. Can we stop wasting each other's time and stop the interview now?"

Them: "That's very disappointing"  They genuinely looked puzzled that I'd turn them down  

Shortest interview I've ever had.  I didn't let rip but I'm more than annoyed at the waste of a day. 

[Phil]

A few years ago I got sent by an agency for a job just outside Silsden, the interview is going ok and I'm feeling relaxed and reasonably confident.

Interviewer A "What sort of salary level would you expect?"

Me "for a position like this with the workload and responsibilities you outlined I'd be looking for £xx,000 per year.

Interviewer B "Oh, we were thinking in the region of £xx - £8,000"

Me "I'm worth £xx,000"

Long period of silence

Me "I'm sorry I'm not prepared to come down to your figure, Would you like to raise it?, I can lower mine a little"

Interviewer A "No I'm sorry we're not prepared to do that"

Me "Ok then, thanks very much, shall we just end this here?"

Interviewer A "Oh, erm, well, erm yes ok"

 

[Bob8]

7 minutes ago, Phil said:

A few years ago I got sent by an agency for a job just outside Silsden, the interview is going ok and I'm feeling relaxed and reasonably confident.

Interviewer A "What sort of salary level would you expect?"

Me "for a position like this with the workload and responsibilities you outlined I'd be looking for £xx,000 per year.

Interviewer B "Oh, we were thinking in the region of £xx - £8,000"

Me "I'm worth £xx,000"

Long period of silence

Me "I'm sorry I'm not prepared to come down to your figure, Would you like to raise it?, I can lower mine a little"

Interviewer A "No I'm sorry we're not prepared to do that"

Me "Ok then, thanks very much, shall we just end this here?"

Interviewer A "Oh, erm, well, erm yes ok"

I look occsionally at what it would take to move back to the UK.  I have saved a bit, have some property, and the low pound, I looked at it again.  The wage level and property prices showed me I was far too spoilt to consider it.

[Ackroman]

59 minutes ago, ckn said:

I have wasted almost the entire day on one job interview. A good job for a good company, with a slightly lower than I'd normally accept salary but the job itself was just what I was looking for.  The commute wasn't great either, but again I'd happily accept it.

I was the sole candidate being interviewed because they said no one else was even close to my skills and experience. It seemed almost as if I turned up and didn't screw up badly that the job was mine.

The interview started with "we have to let you know that the job salary isn't what we advertised, it's a fixed salary of (just over 60% of the lower original salary band and quoted, and 50% of the higher original band), we didn't tell you of this mistake in advance of the interview as we thought you wouldn't mind because of the rare privilege of working for a company like ours.  So, first question, tell us why you want to work for us?"

Me: "Are you serious about the pay 'mistake'?"

Them: "Yes, unfortunately. Also, bear in mind that that new job band doesn't come with health insurance either, and you have to work for three years to qualify for a training allowance."

Me: "Ok, to answer your question then: I no longer want to work for you. Can we stop wasting each other's time and stop the interview now?"

Them: "That's very disappointing"  They genuinely looked puzzled that I'd turn them down  

Shortest interview I've ever had.  I didn't let rip but I'm more than annoyed at the waste of a day. 

Unfortunately there are quite a few employers who have the perception that candidates are so desperate for a job that they'll take the first one offered. It is no coincidence that unemployment is at a low not seen for decades and yet employers are still carrying on like it's 2010. It's a candidate driven market and employers are being very slow in understanding that talent comes at a price. That job won't get filled and no one will have counted the cost of not filling the role. Pure arrogance, you dodged a bullet.

[Griff9of13]

The last contract job I had I experienced something similar. I was contacted by an agency, asked what my rate was for the position. I told them £xxx per day. They offered a lower rate, and on reflection of what the role entailed I counter offered and they agreed to put me forward at that rate. I interviewed and was offered the role. All happy, until the agency came back to say the rate can't be met, they wanted my original rate - £100 per day. My answer, an unequivocal no. £xxx was agreed before interview and £xxx was the rate. They went away only to continue to try to bargain me down throughout the day, but reducing their "discount" to my rate - £50 to which my reply was still no. They threatened that the offer would be withdrawn. I said fine, I wasn't prepared to give my services away. In the end they relented and I got the job for my original price. Shysters.

[ckn]

17 hours ago, Ackroman said:

Unfortunately there are quite a few employers who have the perception that candidates are so desperate for a job that they'll take the first one offered. It is no coincidence that unemployment is at a low not seen for decades and yet employers are still carrying on like it's 2010. It's a candidate driven market and employers are being very slow in understanding that talent comes at a price. That job won't get filled and no one will have counted the cost of not filling the role. Pure arrogance, you dodged a bullet.

I had an example of that today.  I got an email from a company I worked at from 2001-2007, I get regular alumni emails from them, this one asked if I had considered coming back to work for them as they had jobs outstanding.  So, I looked.  My old job that I left in 2007 is open for application, the salary at the top-end of the band is LOWER than my salary was a decade ago when I left.

[ckn]

I think I may have to tighten up my job search criteria... I just had an email from Jobsite suggesting I should apply to join the Met Police as a policeman as a fit to my skills and job search criteria.

Nowt wrong with being a policeman, I just don't think they'd accept an overweight 46 year old with knackered knees and a bit of an attitude problem towards unnecessary authority

[Shadow]

Jobsite is bad, Totaljobs is worse., I was sent an email alert yesterday with Wealth Fund Manager in Abu-Dhabi, basic $100,000 USD and Trainee Barista at Caffe Nero. Both apparently suited to me based on other roles I've applied for and the filters in my job search. Neither is anything I'd consider or have experience or qualifications for.

I now use CV Library and sometimes Jobsite and only go to Totaljobs for light entertainment.

[ckn]

3 minutes ago, Shadow said:

Jobsite is bad, Totaljobs is worse., I was sent an email alert yesterday with Wealth Fund Manager in Abu-Dhabi, basic $100,000 USD and Trainee Barista at Caffe Nero. Both apparently suited to me based on other roles I've applied for and the filters in my job search. Neither is anything I'd consider or have experience or qualifications for.

I now use CV Library and sometimes Jobsite and only go to Totaljobs for light entertainment.

I have about six different job search strings on each site because I'm a bit of a jack-of-all-trades really...  It was the one for Project Director that got the police constable response.

[Griff9of13]

Jobsite used to be good 10+ years ago when online job searching was in its infancy, but it's lost the plot now. More often than not I use CW Jobs; their search returns are, for me at lest, a fairy accurate match with my skills/search criteria. The worst, by a long, long way is Universal Jobmatch that the DWP insist you use if you sign on. Completely and utterly useless. It returns 100s of "matches" no matter how tightly you frame your search criteria most of which are totally irrelevant. 

[gingerjon]

Because I am a bleeding heart liberal, all my job searches are done through the Guardian.

[Oxford]

On 10/08/2017 at 8:34 PM, tonyXIII said:

When I was last in the UK, I did some teaching work through an agency. While I was at one school, I applied for a job there as a Maths teacher. It was politely pointed out to me that, if I got the job, the agency would demand an 'introduction fee' of at least £5000 from the school. I didn't get the job because I ballsed up the interview - I wouldn't have given myself the job, to be honest - but it certainly made me think twice about agencies.

 

That's because they're a rip-off and there is no alternative.

"I didn't get the job because I ballsed up the interview - I wouldn't have given myself the job, to be honest .."

Been there, done that got the badly fitting shoes bought specially! Although I've read with interest this thread I've avoided posting on here because I was searching for work and ....

Wishing everyone still looking all the best! Don't give up I had all those things against me that everyone says are detrimental to being accepted and if I can do it then there's hope for everyone.

 

[shrek]

My wife once had her CV put forward by an agency to be head of IT Networks for the 2012 Commonwealth Games in Manchester without her approval.  She only found out when they checked her availability to attend a recruitment day.

It came as a bit of a shock to her as at the time she was running Business Networks at the London Business School and struggled to log on to her PC most days let alone do anything technical!

[Ackroman]

Like I said before, employers need to wise up because they can no longer rely on cheap asian labour for the skills market, and cheap eastern european labour for the unskilled market. However because of this salaries are still lower than they should be. We have jobs on that offer degree qualified chemists the minimum wage, to carry out tasks that they need a degree for. These companies, mainly environmental and food testing businesses, created growth by importing cheap labour and undercutting competitors to the point where the industry is becoming unsustainable.

..and to to put some points straight, to work on these roles we are then obliged to work at 10% on 60 days (call that 90) payment terms from the moment they deign to give you a purchase order. Recruitment therefore, is not so lucrative and the industry has lost its way in understanding the value of good recruitment practice. 

[ckn]

6 minutes ago, Ackroman said:

Like I said before, employers need to wise up because they can no longer rely on cheap asian labour for the skills market, and cheap eastern european labour for the unskilled market. However because of this salaries are still lower than they should be. We have jobs on that offer degree qualified chemists the minimum wage, to carry out tasks that they need a degree for. These companies, mainly environmental and food testing businesses, created growth by importing cheap labour and undercutting competitors to the point where the industry is becoming unsustainable.

..and to to put some points straight, to work on these roles we are then obliged to work at 10% on 60 days (call that 90) payment terms from the moment they deign to give you a purchase order. Recruitment therefore, is not so lucrative and the industry has lost its way in understanding the value of good recruitment practice. 

I worked for one agency once where I was on weekly bill, weekly pay and they were on 90 day terms with the end client. They also were on 4% "open book" margin. I knew that because I was budget holder for my own contract at the client. How they were able to operate was beyond my understanding as how do you generate any sort of profit from that?

Edit: a very good recruitment agency is worth every penny of their 15-20% margin and I don't grudge them a bit of it. 

[ckn]

We're not even at Monday lunchtime and I feel like I've had enough job hunting for the week.  I had one agency call me today asking if I could start next Monday on a high-rate contract role.  The role was for a technical design specialist in an engineering field I've never even heard of and involved being the tech lead in a major development effort.  I said as much and the recruiter said "your CV is good enough, we can just change some of the job titles you've had over the years to make it look better".  I reiterated that I'm neither a technical design specialist nor did I know anything about the quite specialist field, he said "OK, we'll get them to offer you more as a day-rate if it'll help solve that problem for you, they've given us authority to recruit immediately as they've had difficulties and it's now urgent".

I'm no saint but that's outright deception.  Just because I have a professional engineering accreditation does not mean I know even 1/100th of the "engineering" trade.

I did give the company's HR team a call and let them know, they didn't seem to care either so I just left them to it.

Pub lunch today I think.

[ckn]

Today's fun and harmony was a recruitment agency asking me if I'd be interested in a Programme Director role managing about 20 projects rolling out Office 365 globally.  They wanted me to prove at least 10 years of experience of deploying Office 365, standard Microsoft Office rollouts were not acceptable.  Office 365 came out in 2011.  When I explained that, the very polite young lady then said "well that shows you haven't got the experience we need" *click*.

[ckn]

This has been a tiring day already.

Just off the phone with a recruitment agent who is refusing to put me forward for a job that I can not only do but am overqualified for.  It's a six month contract at a company not even five minutes drive from home managing a project management function.  The agent said "no, you're far too senior, you'll just leave and I'm not having that", he just wouldn't get that after two decades of 2-4 hour daily commutes that I may actually just want six months of a nice local contract where I know I can do a great job.  He was polite but was insistent that although I met every requirement for the job I was too senior therefore would not be submitted for it.

I'll go direct to the company and see if they'll bypass the agency.

[Shadow]

1 hour ago, ckn said:

This has been a tiring day already.

Just off the phone with a recruitment agent who is refusing to put me forward for a job that I can not only do but am overqualified for.  It's a six month contract at a company not even five minutes drive from home managing a project management function.  The agent said "no, you're far too senior, you'll just leave and I'm not having that", he just wouldn't get that after two decades of 2-4 hour daily commutes that I may actually just want six months of a nice local contract where I know I can do a great job.  He was polite but was insistent that although I met every requirement for the job I was too senior therefore would not be submitted for it.

I'll go direct to the company and see if they'll bypass the agency.

I'm in a similar position, I was called by an agency with the old "you look ideal for this role" line, we talked it through and they put my details forward. That was in June and up until last week they had not had a squeak from the company, apparently they had not returned emails or phone calls for 2 months so I was advised that it was likely to be a non starter. I called them direct and go for the interview tomorrow. 

Decent agencies are worth their weight in gold, CV harvesters (I'm looking at you WR technical) are a waste of everyone's time.

 

Actually on reflection not that similar but worth making the call anyway.

[Bob8]

6 minutes ago, Shadow said:

I'm in a similar position, I was called by an agency with the old "you look ideal for this role" line, we talked it through and they put my details forward. That was in June and up until last week they had not had a squeak from the company, apparently they had not returned emails or phone calls for 2 months so I was advised that it was likely to be a non starter. I called them direct and go for the interview tomorrow. 

Decent agencies are worth their weight in gold, CV harvesters (I'm looking at you WR technical) are a waste of everyone's time.

 

Actually on reflection not that similar but worth making the call anyway.

I am not familiar with a decent one

[ckn]

17 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

I am not familiar with a decent one

I have a few on my "good people" list who have helped me over the years both as a job hunter and employer.

[Bob8]

Just now, ckn said:

I have a few on my "good people" list who have helped me over the years both as a job hunter and employer.

I will say I can think of one agency that do contract work, which means they want a good relationship.  Though I have always wanted salaried work, I can tell the difference, if they call at a bad time, they accept it, but if it is a good time we catch up.  FOr salarid positions, I have not spoken to anyone who would do well at a checkout.