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RayCee

Clarifying Club Boundaries

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Traditionally Hull Fc are West Hull with Hull KR being East Hull. As the city is divided by the river hull this has acted as a handy boundary marker over the years. Both sides of the city have always had a slightly different character with the west side of the city home to the fishing industry and the east side home to the city's trade docks and heavy industry. The community's that grew up around these differing conditions were somewhat separate, so; even aside from the two rugby teams Hull has always been a 'divided city'. However, over time things have changed. Hull endured the worst WW2 bombing of any British city outside of London. Large swathes of the city were devastated and over 90% of the cities housing stock was either damaged or destroyed. The upshot of this was that vast numbers of houses (largely in the form of council estates) were thrown up after the war to house the dispossessed and so people moved to different areas of the city. Couple that with the slum clearances in the 60's and 70's (after new, even larger estates were built on the city's outskirts) and the decline in the fishing industry; there was a whole lot of people movement. This continues to this day. So, although Hull FC command a greater amount of their support from west Hull; they draw support from all over the city, and the same is true for Hull KR. There are areas like the Hessle Road area in west Hull and the southcoates/Preston road/ Marfleet area of East Hull that are probably a 90% - 10% split, but most other areas of the city are more evenly matched (although as a Rovers fan I will admit that Hull FC have always had the larger fan base by some distance.) I'm a Rovers fan and was brought up in East Hull but have largely lived in west Hull as an adult. I hope this is in some way helpful. 

 

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10 hours ago, RayCee said:

Thanks for the input guys. OK, I'll come clean. I have put together an article on my blog comparing population with average attendance at SL for the 23 regular rounds. The results are not necessarily surprising. Bigger population areas fare worse. However, Cas' are by far the winners. If you want to see the results:

https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/2017/08/pop-based-best-attended-super-league.html

When you compare populations with attendances, you're wasting your time. It's a pointless exercise because it assumes only people from those places will go to the games.

Aston Villa don't just draw from Aston. Their stadium holds more than the area!

Best way to compare this would be to work out the population within a given radius from the ground and compare that to attendances. It's fair then.


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2 hours ago, Flagedgetouch said:

Traditionally Hull Fc are West Hull with Hull KR being East Hull. As the city is divided by the river hull this has acted as a handy boundary marker over the years. Both sides of the city have always had a slightly different character with the west side of the city home to the fishing industry and the east side home to the city's trade docks and heavy industry. The community's that grew up around these differing conditions were somewhat separate, so; even aside from the two rugby teams Hull has always been a 'divided city'. However, over time things have changed. Hull endured the worst WW2 bombing of any British city outside of London. Large swathes of the city were devastated and over 90% of the cities housing stock was either damaged or destroyed. The upshot of this was that vast numbers of houses (largely in the form of council estates) were thrown up after the war to house the dispossessed and so people moved to different areas of the city. Couple that with the slum clearances in the 60's and 70's (after new, even larger estates were built on the city's outskirts) and the decline in the fishing industry; there was a whole lot of people movement. This continues to this day. So, although Hull FC command a greater amount of their support from west Hull; they draw support from all over the city, and the same is true for Hull KR. There are areas like the Hessle Road area in west Hull and the southcoates/Preston road/ Marfleet area of East Hull that are probably a 90% - 10% split, but most other areas of the city are more evenly matched (although as a Rovers fan I will admit that Hull FC have always had the larger fan base by some distance.) I'm a Rovers fan and was brought up in East Hull but have largely lived in west Hull as an adult. I hope this is in some way helpful. 

 

That was the kind of info I was looking for. I thought that FC would have a larger support base. Quantifying it is like catching the wind, rather tricky. 

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

When you compare populations with attendances, you're wasting your time. It's a pointless exercise because it assumes only people from those places will go to the games.

Aston Villa don't just draw from Aston. Their stadium holds more than the area!

Best way to compare this would be to work out the population within a given radius from the ground and compare that to attendances. It's fair then.

The problem is I can't do that and even then it isn't that simple as a given radius. I still find the differences in support interesting even with arbitrary town population stats. In that sense I don't find it pointless. One reason why the AV comparison doesn't stand up is that there are several teams in Birmingham. Most SL teams are in one club towns so a comparison can at least be made with some validity. The hardest one is Hull, hence the question posed. I appreciated Flagedgetouch's summary of the city of Hull. Very insightful. 


My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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6 minutes ago, RayCee said:

The problem is I can't do that and even then it isn't that simple as a given radius. I still find the differences in support interesting even with arbitrary town population stats. In that sense I don't find it pointless. One reason why the AV comparison doesn't stand up is that there are several teams in Birmingham. Most SL teams are in one club towns so a comparison can at least be made with some validity. The hardest one is Hull, hence the question posed. I appreciated Flagedgetouch's summary of the city of Hull. Very insightful. 

But you've decided to ignore the fact that it's called Aston Villa and instead concentrated on the fact that they're in Birmingham.

Surely, I could just ignore Castleford as a town and concentrate on the fact that it's in West Yorkshire?

It completely depends on which boundary you want to choose, but the fact is it's not a fair comparison if the boundaries are different sizes because it assumes only people from within the boundary will go (or everyone within the boundary is a target, which in London's case is way too big).

New Zealand Warriors, do you choose all of NZ? North Wales Crusaders, all of North Wales? Catalans Dragons... 

If you go on just the boundaries of the name, it's pointless.


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Considering Bradford is increasingly academic, as the fan base continues to decline with whichever is the latest iteration of the Bulls club. But it is also a good example, historically, of why boundaries are of limited relevance. 

Odsal Stadium is at the very bottom Apex of the Bradmet district, within walking distance of Calderdale, Kirklees and Leeds council districts. You can be out of Bradford within a ten minute walk. The met district stretches over into and up Airedale nearly to Skipton, and over the moor to Ilkley and Wharfedale. Much of the RL support in the Bradmet district is concentrated in South Bradford, the very bottom end of the district.

But the support is also well represented across the borders into the neighbouring districts to the south, which is also the Odsal hinterland. It is far easier to get to Odsal from those areas, and nearer, than from most of the large part of the Bradford district north of the city centre. Most of the demographic across the central band of the city itself is little-interested in spectator sports, and once you get north and north west of the city centre it is more Bradford City soccer territory. Further out you have Keighley RL and a fair bit of Union.

I live in a large village on the Bradford side of the Aire Valley, about 9 miles from the stadium, midway between Bradford and Keighley. Even at the Bulls' peak, there were not that many Bulls supporters out our way.

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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.

Bury your memories; bury your friends. Leave it alone for a year or two.  Till the stories grow hazy, and the legends come true.  Then do it again - some things never end.

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1 hour ago, Adeybull said:

Considering Bradford is increasingly academic, as the fan base continues to decline with whichever is the latest iteration of the Bulls club. But it is also a good example, historically, of why boundaries are of limited relevance. 

Odsal Stadium is at the very bottom Apex of the Bradmet district, within walking distance of Calderdale, Kirklees and Leeds council districts. You can be out of Bradford within a ten minute walk. The met district stretches over into and up Airedale nearly to Skipton, and over the moor to Ilkley and Wharfedale. Much of the RL support in the Bradmet district is concentrated in South Bradford, the very bottom end of the district.

But the support is also well represented across the borders into the neighbouring districts to the south, which is also the Odsal hinterland. It is far easier to get to Odsal from those areas, and nearer, than from most of the large part of the Bradford district north of the city centre. Most of the demographic across the central band of the city itself is little-interested in spectator sports, and once you get north and north west of the city centre it is more Bradford City soccer territory. Further out you have Keighley RL and a fair bit of Union.

I live in a large village on the Bradford side of the Aire Valley, about 9 miles from the stadium, midway between Bradford and Keighley. Even at the Bulls' peak, there were not that many Bulls supporters out our way.

My point exactly.

If people want to compare attendances to population, it's got to be within a radius of the ground and not within differing boundaries of a place name. 

It's like when people say "Cumbria would be a good place for a SL team. Base it in Worky or Haven," then they forget that although Cumbria has about half a million inhabitants, there's only about 50,000 people in a 10 mile radius of those West Cumbria towns. Even though Castleford has 40,000 people, look at a 10 mile radius and you're looking at over a quarter of a million people. It's just not a fair comparison at all.

Edited by Wellsy4HullFC
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Well thanks for the comments guys, mostly constructive and adding to my knowledge of the subject. Whatever you look at it, Cas' are amazing in attracting so many fans with a limited catchment area to draw on. Clearly the locals really get behind their team and people in the surrounding districts likewise. :clapping:

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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We`ve had a lot of plastic Pies in Leigh for the last 20 or so years but I blame their pathetic parents for inadequate parenting. I`d have put them in care if they wanted to watch the Pies!!!


We`re on a road to Nowhere.......................

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On 11/08/2017 at 13:37, Just Browny said:

This thread is crying out for a 'Cas Vegas used to say he didn't know any Castleford fans from the town' reference.

And for a conclusion that London and Toronto are letting the side down and should be kicked out.

Isn't it?

PS I now know people who live in Cas, Just Browny - so I cannot lend weight to the argument, here.

PPS They're all ex-players, unfortunately.

Edited by Cas Vegas

"Australia is a spoiled nation. They can expect my revenge. I'm not crazy when I say this, they are the crazy ones who give you hot sausages before the match when it's 40 degrees celsius outside."

--------------------------

"Shifty Matty Petersen trying to get in there with a little five-fingered discount." Franklin Field, Philadelphia, 30/11/2004

--------------------------

FourthThird Second Best Statement Ever: Student Ram 02/06/2004 (Without a trace of irony): "... because, when you think about it, really... Wakefield is kind of the centre of the universe. You know, both ways, you've got..."

Followed by a half a minute justification of this point of view.

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2 hours ago, Cas Vegas said:

Isn't it?

PS I now know people who live in Cas, Just Browny - so I cannot lend weight to the argument, here.

PS They're all ex-players, unfortunately.

Wow, how "ace" is this?

Having said that, I'm sure somebody must have posted summat similar earlier on a different thread.

Welcome back mate...if it is indeed you. ?


                                                  "Son, can you play me a memory, I'm not really sure how it goes,

                                   but it's sad and it's sweet and I knew it complete, when I wore a younger man's clothes"

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On 11/08/2017 at 08:24, RayCee said:

 

On 11/08/2017 at 02:04, RayCee said:

I was working on something and need help if it's possible.

What percentage of Hull does Hull FC gain support from compared the Hull KR. Could it be divided 50/50 or does one have more of the city?

Also, the Leeds Rhinos. Would it be fair to say that they cover the city regarding support or are they in effect based in one part and basically only getting supporters from a limited area? If so what sort of percentage would that amount to, if it is quantifiable?

If someone knows enough about those clubs and where they draw supporters, please enlighten me as it's beyond my knowledge.:tongue: 

Leeds fans come from all parts of the city. In south Leeds you get a few Cas fans too, used to be quite a few Bulls fans across Leeds too, not as many nowadays 

Edited by Sir Kevin Sinfield
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4 hours ago, Old Frightful said:

Wow, how "ace" is this?

Having said that, I'm sure somebody must have posted summat similar earlier on a different thread.

Welcome back mate...if it is indeed you. ?

Cheers, ar kid. Tis me Old Frightful.

PS "I'm sure somebody must have posted summat similar earlier on a different thread"
Explain?


"Australia is a spoiled nation. They can expect my revenge. I'm not crazy when I say this, they are the crazy ones who give you hot sausages before the match when it's 40 degrees celsius outside."

--------------------------

"Shifty Matty Petersen trying to get in there with a little five-fingered discount." Franklin Field, Philadelphia, 30/11/2004

--------------------------

FourthThird Second Best Statement Ever: Student Ram 02/06/2004 (Without a trace of irony): "... because, when you think about it, really... Wakefield is kind of the centre of the universe. You know, both ways, you've got..."

Followed by a half a minute justification of this point of view.

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15 hours ago, Cas Vegas said:

Cheers, ar kid. Tis me Old Frightful.

PS "I'm sure somebody must have posted summat similar earlier on a different thread"
Explain?

He’s saying we’re predictable! Charming ?

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1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

He’s saying we’re predictable! Charming ?

Well Johnoco, we are that. ?


"Australia is a spoiled nation. They can expect my revenge. I'm not crazy when I say this, they are the crazy ones who give you hot sausages before the match when it's 40 degrees celsius outside."

--------------------------

"Shifty Matty Petersen trying to get in there with a little five-fingered discount." Franklin Field, Philadelphia, 30/11/2004

--------------------------

FourthThird Second Best Statement Ever: Student Ram 02/06/2004 (Without a trace of irony): "... because, when you think about it, really... Wakefield is kind of the centre of the universe. You know, both ways, you've got..."

Followed by a half a minute justification of this point of view.

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17 hours ago, Cas Vegas said:

Cheers, ar kid. Tis me Old Frightful.

PS "I'm sure somebody must have posted summat similar earlier on a different thread"
Explain?

 

1 hour ago, Johnoco said:

He’s saying we’re predictable! Charming ?

We have a winner!

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                                                  "Son, can you play me a memory, I'm not really sure how it goes,

                                   but it's sad and it's sweet and I knew it complete, when I wore a younger man's clothes"

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On 11/08/2017 at 11:46, Scubby said:

Castleford a drawing a good percentage of their crowd from outside the town (e.g. Knottingley, Pontefract, Selby, Methley etc.) These are also crossovers for other local clubs. It is not cut and dried in terms of boundaries.

Isnt it more of a case that in a smaller town there is less to do and the RL club should then be a big fish in a small pond and attract a hefty percentage of the locals

In a bigger city there are many more attractions and distractions so the RL club has less of a pull and lower percentage of natives

Re the idea of where a clubs fans come from you would like to think that the marketing department at each club would hold this data. Not sure whether they would release it though

Would be fascinating to get accurate figures in the North West. Could explore how far into Liverpool do Saints go. Do Widnes get many fans from over the bridge. Where are the Widnes/Wire Widnes/Saints Wigan/Saints borders. Is Billinge truly split between Saints and Wigan or have the ones at the top of the hill now seen sense ?

 

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2 hours ago, headtackle said:

Isnt it more of a case that in a smaller town there is less to do and the RL club should then be a big fish in a small pond and attract a hefty percentage of the locals

In a bigger city there are many more attractions and distractions so the RL club has less of a pull and lower percentage of natives

Re the idea of where a clubs fans come from you would like to think that the marketing department at each club would hold this data. Not sure whether they would release it though

Would be fascinating to get accurate figures in the North West. Could explore how far into Liverpool do Saints go. Do Widnes get many fans from over the bridge. Where are the Widnes/Wire Widnes/Saints Wigan/Saints borders. Is Billinge truly split between Saints and Wigan or have the ones at the top of the hill now seen sense ?

 

Smaller clubs have an advantage for certain.

As for the data, I'm not sure if some clubs would even know where their fans come from. Warrington do as a recent media article confirmed. 


My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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Well, we’re North East London and Broncos are West London, which is pretty clear and leaves south London free. ?

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On 11/08/2017 at 10:24, RayCee said:

So take Cas', over 20% of the town population at an average game. There will be some travelling fans. I wonder how many who come to games live in the town and how many are from the wider region around them who support them. Either way, a club that can garner that sort of following is doing something right. 

I've visited all SL grounds with Broncos over the years. It is of course a royal dump of a ground but I am definitely most envious of the atmosphere at Cas

Genuine local support.... Loud and passionate and intense 

Wish we had more of it

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On 03/12/2019 at 05:01, RayCee said:

Would be fascinating to get accurate figures in the North West. Could explore how far into Liverpool do Saints go. Do Widnes get many fans from over the bridge. Where are the Widnes/Wire Widnes/Saints Wigan/Saints borders. Is Billinge truly split between Saints and Wigan or have the

The boundaries of Saints support are still pretty much defined by the greenbelt of 120 years ago surrounding the town in every direction.To the west towards Liverpool significant support goes no further than Prescot (3miles west of town centre)  .

The boundary south with Widnes and runs along the line of the A57 from Prescot through Rainhill and Bold.

The boundary with Warrington runs south of Clockface and Burton Wood which today is defined by the line of the M62

Further east Newton Le Willows is "contested " between Saints and Warrington while east and north East Haydock ,Billinge and Ashton in Makerfield are contested with Wigan.

To the North West there is little Saints support beyond Rainford with little support in Ormskirk or Southport.

Into the 1970s there were numbers former St Helens Recs supporters who switched to Wigan after the war.

The has always been significant support for Liverpool and Everton on the west side of the town and Man Utd on the East.Smaller numbers of Man City and Bolton .This has intensified in more recent years with significant Scouse overspill beyond its traditional boundary along the line of M57.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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