Betts wants licensing back

[snapski]

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/news/12196/11019383/widnes-boss-denis-betts-calls-for-super-league-licensing-return?utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

 

probably to cover up his ability as a coach. 

[paulwalker71]

He says

Quote

Leigh and Widnes are two really good clubs who deserve to be in Super League... Definitely Hull KR can and Leigh have shown they're a Super League side. 

If Leigh, Widnes and Hull KR all deserve to be in Super League then he's indirectly proposing increasing the number of teams in SL Good luck getting the SL chairmen - including Widnes' own chairman - to agree to split the pie into 14 rather than 12

But then he says

Quote

We've put ourselves in a situation where the game's not strong enough to take it. We haven't got enough teams to create one competition let alone three.

which seems to contradict himself. Have we got enough strong teams or haven't we? Come on Denis, think it through fella...

[Padge]

To be fair to Betts it isn't the first time he has stated this position. Also he is right, get rid of this nonsense we have now and have proper licensing with an RFL board with the bottle to chuck the underperformers out on their ear.

 

[West Leeds Riviera]

do Leigh, Widnes and KR deserve to be in SL? 

Under the current system no:

KR were relegated last year and are having to earn the right to play in SL

Leigh and Widnes finished in the bottom 2 and so are playing to earn the right to stay in SL 

 

[DavidM]

' deserve ' . Prove it on the pitch , no one deserves anything . SL shouldn't be a cosy club 

[GUBRATS]

He's wrong , we went up by winning games , if we lose too many we go down , somebody else gets our place 

[Tongs ya bas]

31 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

He's wrong , we went up by winning games , if we lose too many we go down , somebody else gets our place 

What if the club who replaces you is not as good as you?

[DavidM]

6 minutes ago, Tongs ya bas said:

What if the club who replaces you is not as good as you?

This is sport , by definition they've got there on merit and deserve a shot through performance so are good enough , and you've not been good enough . Surely this is basic 

[RayCee]

Often 'there isn't enough talent' is wheeled out. Some of the players in the Championship are good enough for SL. They can't all be there with 12 teams.

There is only one issue here, money. The sooner SL can expand into N America (and Europe too) then better TV deals and sponsors will come. Then 14 teams will work. 

[Padge]

8 minutes ago, DavidM said:

This is sport , by definition they've got there on merit and deserve a shot through performance so are good enough , and you've not been good enough . Surely this is basic 

No this is professional sport, this is the problem a lot of RL fans have they do not understand what professional sport is or what it is about.

[DavidM]

2 minutes ago, Padge said:

No this is professional sport, this is the problem a lot of RL fans have they do not understand what professional sport is or what it is about.

The people who brought in this system have the same lack of insight then

[DavidM]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But what if that team got there by not bothering to run an academy side and spent that money on the first team, whilst you ran an academy side, and promoted youth? 

What about if you have taken the short term hit to invest in your facilities but the team which replaces you hasnt bothered but is running at a loss to put their first team on the field? 

Do we just shrug and say thats sport? If we do, why is any mid/lower SL upper championship side going to do any medium-long term development?

They had all these kinds of boxes to tick and neglected them and then changed the whole thing to where we are now

[DavidM]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

So we just never make those improvements? Never look to the medium never mind long term?

Ask the clubs and RFL . Right now they preach it but they don't prioritise it . Clubs who advance or look to advance should be improving across the board by definition.

[DavidM]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

But your pitting them against clubs who may not necessarily also be looking to improve by advancing across the board and if they lose, they lose a big part of their funding and likely most of any advances they have made. 

So we have incentivised short term thinking and those clubs who think short term. 

I don't disagree , this is the system as of now and Betts was probably making this same argument about the whole package. We'll see what happens at the next review into the structure

[Maximus Decimus]

There is nothing sexy about stability. I said it on twitter but today's match had the heart pumping and the nerves going like no match in licensing.

This isn't a problem if there is regular movement of clubs (ie NRL) up and down the division but in British RL there isn't enough.

It's easy to look back at licensing with rose tinted glasses but the drop in crowds started under that system.

[West Leeds Riviera]

Here's the problem:

with licensing the championship clubs moaned about SL being a closed shop

with P and R clubs who are at risk of being relegated moan because they've not been good enough all year and are look for a scape goat

Id imagine we'll probably return to licensing in 2019-2020 what with NYC and other potential 'expansion' teams wanting to join. Maybe end up with a SL1 and SL2 or a Europe and North America conference

[Bob8]

8 hours ago, Padge said:

No this is professional sport, this is the problem a lot of RL fans have they do not understand what professional sport is or what it is about.

I am sure such people who believe in "priving it on the pitch" and "sporting merit" will not want their teams in a league that is primarly a TV product where clubs are paid mainly for being part fo a TV product.

Because that would be gross hypocrisy. 

[bamfordsbeans]

If licensing is to return,I just hope there is enough of the right type of applicants to ensure underperforming clubs like Widnes are not involved.

[GUBRATS]

39 minutes ago, bamfordsbeans said:

If licensing is to return,I just hope there is enough of the right type of applicants to ensure underperforming clubs like Widnes are not involved.

Currently there isnt so youll just have to put up with them and others like them , unlucky 

[Maximus Decimus]

9 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Under franchising crowds peaked in 2012. Prior to the end of the 2013 season we had given up on it and returned to P+R in 2014. (well R anway)

on average about 1k more people were watching SL per game in 2012 than last year, and that was a league that included Bradford and Londond whose crowds have cratered since then (that fall isnt included in that 1k difference,)

The jeopardy of relegation last season saw about 1k fans who watch leeds during the regular season just not bother, those figures are worse for Wire and Les Catalans. Last seasons MPG couldnt even sell out Craven Park. Maybe there is nothing sexy in relegation?

Leeds V Saints 2009, Leeds v Wigan 2008 and 2012, the Mcguire injury game in 10. Leeds v Catalans 2012, or the Greg Bird game in 09, Wigan Saints in 09 or the magic weekend draw in 11, Leeds v Wire in 11, If those games didnt have your heart pumping, consult a doctor. 

 

I can honestly state that none of those games got my heart pumping. I might have enjoyed them but as a Widnes fan with no emotional attachment to any of the clubs why would it?

The decline in crowds clearly started under the last system and has continued into this. I never said P&R brings fans back but I think there are long term problems with sterilising the competition like licensing does.

[Tongs ya bas]

11 hours ago, DavidM said:

This is sport , by definition they've got there on merit and deserve a shot through performance so are good enough , and you've not been good enough . Surely this is basic 

Sport takes many forms. Are you saying that rugby league wasn't sport before 1973?

[Flagedgetouch]

Licensing will fail again under our current system of governance for the same reasons it did last time. A franchise system requires a strong central governance that by definition is in total control of the franchises, has the power of God over them to order them out of the competition if necessary, and micro manages every aspect of the competition up to and including the transfer system. 

What we currently have is a weak central governance that Is not strong enough to stand up to the cabal of superleague chairmen who are able to veto anything they aren't keen on and scapegoat the RFL for anything that goes #### up. Not that the above should in any way be taken as a defence of the RFL: an organisation that have made an art form out of F***ing things up royally. Unless major changes are made to the way the sport is run; licensing will fall flat on its face again. 

On the subject of clubs improving and the scourge of short termism: specifically with regards to my own club Hull KR; I would agree that in the first nine years of superleague the club did little to improve its infrastructure and concentrated its efforts on player recruitment to aid short term success. The result of this was that in that period the club was comfortably bottom of the league table for producing home grown players. It wasn't even in the same league as struggling (at the time) clubs like London, Wakefield and Widnes let alone city rivals Hull Fc or the big fishes like Leeds and Wigan. Because of this (and other factors) Niel Hudgell came close to walking away from the club in 2014; I believe because he realised his own mistakes and doubted his ability to rectify the situation. Thankfully though, he decided to stay. The recruitment of Jamie peacock as rugby manager with a large part of his remit to create talent pathways from scholarship through to first team was a good start. Relegation was a stumbling block; however, for me, we were on borrowed time for a few years before 2016 anyway, so I can't say we didn't deserve it. Bringing in Tim Sheens was the next piece of the puzzle and he has successfully brought several home produced youngsters through into the first team this year (to add to several from last year) so, if Rovers are promoted this year they will re-enter SL in a much better place than when they left it IMO. The whole off field set up at the club has been revamped and continues to be added to and improved; the club being one of very few in SL to have reported attendance increases year on year since 2012. As for the joint academy: well, I'm not convinced there is only enough talent in East Yorkshire for one team. However, I can't really argue with the player development and overall performance of the joint venture so far - for me it has delivered big time, but I don't see it lasting. 

[ivans82]

If Widnes are relegated it will give them time to rebuild and go again as Hull K R are doing , if Leigh go down they will Know what is required next time , Wakefield have had narrow escapes and have adjusted their squad accordingly .The threat of relegation is the only thing that keeps Teams on their toes and focussed .

[Scubby]

11 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

There is nothing sexy about stability. I said it on twitter but today's match had the heart pumping and the nerves going like no match in licensing.

This isn't a problem if there is regular movement of clubs (ie NRL) up and down the division but in British RL there isn't enough.

It's easy to look back at licensing with rose tinted glasses but the drop in crowds started under that system.

It's also easy to forget that this system is hardly packing them. Only 6200 at LSV yesterday for what was considered one of the crunch games of the whole super 8s - suggests not that many folk want heart pumping car crash games either.

[Scubby]

16 minutes ago, ivans82 said:

If Widnes are relegated it will give them time to rebuild and go again as Hull K R are doing , if Leigh go down they will Know what is required next time , Wakefield have had narrow escapes and have adjusted their squad accordingly .The threat of relegation is the only thing that keeps Teams on their toes and focussed .

If either go down their funding will drop from £1.9m to 700k - so they will lose £1.2m out of their turnover before they've even kicked a ball. That is hardly rebuilding that is a calamity. Hull KR have a good chance of going up this time. However, none of us know whether the club will crumble playing a second season in the Championship. A £1.5m to £2m squad on a handout of 700k doesn't add up for long before the stuff hits the fan.